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Smudgie Buggler posted:It must be seriously comforting, being able to wrap yourself in this kind of intellectual security blanket. To believe that localized violence and genocide in Africa are rooted solely in religion and not a mixture of ethnic and economic pressures?  edit: whoops missed a page my bad
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Jan 10, 2015 03:27
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Anyway, much of the issue is beyond just GDP per capita but local economics (look at the different parts of Iraq) and how strong the state is (China has a very strong state compared to Nigeria). Basically you can create a laundry list of factors, and spend hours debating how they apply to different countries. China does have ethnic strife in some region, but it also has a massive security state apparatus than goes down on it like a ton of bricks.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:33
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Popular Thug Drink posted:places where islamic extremism is the locally popular extremism are places where it tends to be easy to commit mass violence. like you'd think saudi arabia would be a hotbed of islamic extremism but saudi arabia is wealthy and has a strong government so they find and eliminate terror cells before they happen Here's something odd: 'In March 2014, the Saudi interior ministry issued a royal decree branding all atheists as terrorists, which defines terrorism as "calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based" here's a source. The Saudi government is quick to use the war on terror to crush dissent and impose more cultural conformity. You see I kind of feel that dismissing people who act violently on an idea as intrinsically nuts isn't the way forward, from what I read about some of the people who go to fight for ISIS or something they're not always straight up psychotic but disillusioned, alienated, bored or gullible. I would say some ideologies are worse than others at praying on these kinds of factors for a much more violent result, look at Nazism. quote:divide and conquer - if we, the new colonial governors of Colortown, place the small Red minority in power above the Blue majority, their ancient enemy, the Reds are more likely to fall in line and stick with us out of fear of Blue reprisals. even after we leave the Reds, who inherit the government, may use their position to continue to exploit the Blues khwarezm fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 03:49
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Popular Thug Drink posted:places where islamic extremism is the locally popular extremism are places where it tends to be easy to commit mass violence. like you'd think saudi arabia would be a hotbed of islamic extremism but saudi arabia is wealthy and has a strong government so they find and eliminate terror cells before they happen You have got to be joking with this. Saudi Arabia is rife with organised violent extremism.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:56
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Smudgie Buggler posted:You have got to be joking with this. Saudi Arabia is rife with organised violent extremism. Hey, so long as the Wahhabbists aren't killing House of Saud members, there's no terrorism growing in Saudi Arabia. 
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Jan 10, 2015 04:01
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Isn't the Saudi Arabian strategy to essentially encourage home-grown terrorist cells that then ship off to destabilize regional rivals? I recall a friend of mine mentioning this.
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Jan 10, 2015 04:36
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The Saudi government is basically a collection of rich fundamentalist oil barons who give cash under the table to any Wahabbist terrorist group wants it, on the one condition that they don't target the Saudi government
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Jan 10, 2015 04:49
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So do we do intervene something HR activist and lefties along with right winers will support and cop more terrorist attack and dumb people buy into west killing muslim narrative or do we not intervene and still cop terrorist attack cause doing nothing shows how we don't care about africans and only about oil in the middle east?
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Jan 10, 2015 05:21
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Well we could 'intervene' in the sense that we could use international organizations and procedures to help countries develop, or we could 'intervene' in the "Muslim country must be punished, Hulk smash!!!!!" sense. I think the first one is a better idea than the second
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Jan 10, 2015 05:25
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astupiddvdcase posted:So do we do intervene something HR activist and lefties along with right winers will support and cop more terrorist attack and dumb people buy into west killing muslim narrative or do we not intervene and still cop terrorist attack cause doing nothing shows how we don't care about africans and only about oil in the middle east? Don't worry, I don't think there is discrimination against African or Nigerian oil.
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Jan 10, 2015 05:30
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astupiddvdcase posted:So do we do intervene something HR activist and lefties along with right winers will support and cop more terrorist attack and dumb people buy into west killing muslim narrative or do we not intervene and still cop terrorist attack cause doing nothing shows how we don't care about africans and only about oil in the middle east? Nigerians aren't stranded on a mountain top, so there will be no intervention.
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Jan 10, 2015 07:04
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icantfindaname posted:hrm yes, "Exterminate The Brutes" is a sound, proven, and moral ideology, tell me more You do have a point there. Whatever happens, I would want the strategy used against them to be sound. Boko Haram is indefensible but I would hate to in any way validate their arguments that the degenerate west is pushing down on them, making them martyrs.
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Jan 10, 2015 08:42
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Holy poo poo, what a news to wake up to on a saturday morning :/ I posted some stuff about Nigeria a while ago in the maps thread, it's prolly relevant to repost here as context 3peat posted:One interesting thing about this is that Hausa-Fulani are now considered a single group, but even tho the Fulani population is really tiny compared to the Hausa (who are the biggest ethnic group in Nigeria), almost the entire elite in northern Nigeria are Fulani: from the traditional emirs and sultans to businessmen, politicians, etc. The richest black person in the world is a Fulani. You can even tell them apart, as Fulani people tend to have lighter skin than the others and they look more like east-africans/people from the Sahel. Some other random things that come to mind and which mite be relevant (tho Nigeria is an extremely complex country and you'd need thousands of pages and someone way smarter and knowledgeable than me to explain it): - note on the first map that even tho most of the north is dominated by Hausa-Fulani, the area in which Boko Haram is active (the north-east corner) is inhabited by minority ethnic groups speaking minority languages; that corner is the poorest and most neglected part of the country; it's one of the reasons why Boko Haram has managed to last that long, it's contained in a part of the country that nobody cares about, and the rest of the country (like the south and it's economic centres like Lagos or Port Harcourt) can go on about their lives without giving a gently caress as they're not affected; it's kinda like if an evangelical insurgency started in Alabama and went around killing ppl that aren't religious enough, while ppl in New York or LA would be like "lol @ those inbred rednecks killing eachother, what a bunch of white trash retards ahahahha" - related to that, even tho the vast majority of the military (including officers) fighting against Boko Haram are northern muslims, they're actually Hausa-Fulani so they don't really see the population there as "their own" so they don't feel particularly shy when committing atrocities, while the local people are understandably wary or hostile even if they don't support Boko Haram - the former biggest insurgency in Nigeria, which lasted decades, also took place in a minority ethnic groups area, the Niger Delta (which is in the central south); there are big differences tho, as the Niger Delta is Christian and the militants there fought against foreign oil companies and the federal government. Their grievance was that even tho most of Nigeria's oil comes from their region, none of the money comes back to them and they had to endure insane pollution (the oil spills there have been the biggest and most damaging on the planet). That insurgency is mostly over, and when current president Goodluck Jonathan was elected, it was seen as an act of historical justice as he's the first president from a minority ethnic group and also the first president from the Niger Delta (too bad he's been pretty ineffectual and incompetent tho) - there are around 250 ethnic groups speaking over 500 different languages (belonging to several unrelated language groups) in Nigeria; there is also the divide between the muslim north and the christian south (that's an over simplification though, as there are plenty of christians in the north and a lot of muslims in the south). The ethnic and religious landscape is understandably very complex, like as an example a ton of the southern Yoruba are muslims, but the northern muslims don't see those Yoruba as "real muslims" and don't consider them to be "serious about it", while a Yoruba muslim will almost always side with a Yoruba christian against a non-Yoruba muslim, since in a lot of the country ethnicity takes precedence to religion - most southern ethnic groups have been living there for thousands of years, while a lot of the northerners are far more recent arrivals in the area, which gives extra ammo to ethnic nationalists about who belongs where - during british colonial times, what are now north and south Nigeria were ran as separate entities; the north was allowed to keep it's former feudal power structures (like the local emirs and sultans) and the islamic education, while in the south they went hog wild with christianity and western education. When colonization ended, they left Nigeria in a state of permanent deadlock with nobody having a clear ethnic or religious majority, full of various peoples who had always hated eachother. Southerners like to blame the brits for "putting the power in the hands of northerners" (since the country has been ruled by northerners for most of the period after independence), but I think the british intentions were more in the vein of "ya'll want independence? I'll show you independence" *puts the cat and dog in the sack then leans back and has a chuckle* - considering the above point, Nigeria has fared surprisingly well as things could have gone way worse; the only major ethnic conflict was the Biafran War, when millions of southern Igbo people were genocided by the northern dominated government (tho, like everything about Nigeria, things are more complex than that). It was an interesting conflict also because the Igbo Biafra was supported by France and various christian African countries, while the Nigerian government was supported by a funny alliance of the british, the americans, the soviets and various muslim countries edit: I just googled the Biafran War as I didn't remember that much about it, and the background section in the wikipedia article has a lot of interesting stuff about the things I was talking about above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Civil_War 3peat fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 10:05
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White people are responsible for this, somehow.
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Jan 10, 2015 12:05
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Jonad posted:White people are responsible for this, somehow. British Nigeria, 1900-1960. Nigerian Civil War, 1967-1970, between one and three million civilians killed. Gort fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 13:01
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Gort posted:British Nigeria, 1900-1960. Whew. My world view would have been blown wide open, if I wasn't given the weakest of reasons to grab onto that show this as ultimately the fault of white people.
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Jan 10, 2015 15:32
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White people have been the global hegemon for over two centuries. Nigeria was controlled by a white colonial power for a long period of time that ended in living memory. During that period of control the distracting, systems of government and civil and physical infrastructure were created and imposed upon the population. When the period of direct colonial rule ended indirect interference from various white powers continued and to this day one of the most powerful organisations in the country is an Anglo-Dutch oil company. With that level of historical control and contemporary influence it is clear the root causes of current events in Nigeria are the outcome of white actions.
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Jan 10, 2015 15:59
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Whew, for a second I thought the simple, inferior natives actually weren't so simple and inferior! Like maybe they actually had autonomy and made their own decisions? I seriously thought that a certain segment of Nigeria's population, completely on their own, had decided to slaughter hundreds of innocent women and children! Glad to hear that this is yet again just the influence of the ever powerful White Man. It doesn't matter how convoluted and far removed this supposed influence is, it's always the whisperings of the White Devil that drives these simple but noble peoples to commit such atrocities.
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Jan 10, 2015 16:04
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As an oppressed left-handed person it is utterly relieving to know that D&D will defend my actions if I were to snap and kill hundreds of women and children. I mean we'd have to look at the context of the situation and analyze the fact that right-handed people have dominated the tools industry for centuries, forcing their influence upon me. Until you've experienced the oppression of having the written portion of an exam come out smudged you really can't understand the stresses I go through on a daily basis. It's seriously good to know that, after my killings, you guys would thoroughly condemn the dominance of right-handed culture in America even if you didn't fully condone my mass murder. 
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Jan 10, 2015 16:09
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Boko Haram's roots are a combination of alienation of certain sections of Northern Nigeria from their own government along with the usual pattern of a highly conservative Salafist Islamist group mutating into a violent insurgency, partially due to being on the receiving end of a violent, ham-fisted crackdown. I guess that's too boring to be their origin?
New Division fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 16:12
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Narciss posted:Whew. My world view would have been blown wide open, if I wasn't given the weakest of reasons to grab onto that show this as ultimately the fault of white people. It turns out that when you mercilessly seize power over most of the planet, what you do with that power has long term consequences. I'm sorry that history offends you; feel free to join the creationists, etc, in denial of reality. E: it's really sad that some people asked about how this situation got so hosed up, and that when the answer involved white people suddenly we're excusing murder. Thanks for putting the "white" in white noise, I guess. Although white noise can contribute to learning if used to block out distractions, so I suppose I should be fair to detuned radios and not compare them to something that's actually just totally worthless. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 16:32
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Nigeria was controlled by a white colonial power for a long period of time that ended in living memory. During that period of control the distracting, systems of government and civil and physical infrastructure were created and imposed upon the population. Education and infrastructure weren't "imposed" at all. They came along with Christian missionaries to the two southern sects, and were welcomed. Nigerians went to western schools and we saw the first Nigerian doctors and lawyers. The only sect that opposed that type of development was the northern Islamist sect, and they completely got out of it by exchanging fealty to the British for an agreement that the British wouldn't attempt to influence their culture or social structure. There's definitely terrible effects left over from colonialism, and Biafra was largely a result of it, but as usual DnD tends to look too deeply into it and draw conclusions that aren't there.
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Jan 10, 2015 16:38
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BEAR GRYLLZ posted:As an oppressed left-handed person it is utterly relieving to know that D&D will defend my actions if I were to snap and kill hundreds of women and children. I mean we'd have to look at the context of the situation and analyze the fact that right-handed people have dominated the tools industry for centuries, forcing their influence upon me. Until you've experienced the oppression of having the written portion of an exam come out smudged you really can't understand the stresses I go through on a daily basis. It's seriously good to know that, after my killings, you guys would thoroughly condemn the dominance of right-handed culture in America even if you didn't fully condone my mass murder. ahh yes, being left handed and being the victim of decades of colonialism: totally congruent
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Jan 10, 2015 16:39
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Reminder: Goodluck Jonathan is pressing ahead with a February election despite the chaos in northern Nigeria since he draws his support from the Christian southern part of the country so he's hoping that Boko Haram eliminates northern voting against him, allowing him to get a dominant reelection.
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Jan 10, 2015 16:41
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Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Goodluck wins re-election and a lot of folks feel it is illegitimate for that very reason. Of course, it's not like his major opponent, Buhari, is that great of a choice either. Nigeria's in for a bloody year, unfortunately.
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Jan 10, 2015 16:45
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Jonad posted:White people are responsible for this, somehow. It doesn't really matter who is to blame, what is the best way to help without making things worse.
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Jan 10, 2015 17:14
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Mandy Thompson posted:It doesn't really matter who is to blame, what is the best way to help without making things worse. Well since this is CLEARLY motivated by their savage barbaric religion, seems to me the best answer would be to send missionaries to convert them to nice, peaceful Christianity. Seriously though, do some of you people really, honestly think that the primary problem here is religion? Or that Islam is even towards the top of the list of reasons that poo poo like this happens? Smudgie Buggler posted:It must be seriously comforting, being able to wrap yourself in this kind of intellectual security blanket. Honestly, explain this to me. "IT'S CUZ ISLAM" seems like the myopic intellectual security blanket in this scenario. sit on my Facebook fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 18:54
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Mandy Thompson posted:It doesn't really matter who is to blame, what is the best way to help without making things worse. Don't let any white people get involved in anything relating to Boko Haram, let these peaceful religious people go about their ways!
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Jan 10, 2015 18:59
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stinkles1112 posted:Well since this is CLEARLY motivated by their savage barbaric religion, seems to me the best answer would be to send missionaries to convert them to nice, peaceful Christianity. you are right, they just HAPPEN to be Islamic!
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Jan 10, 2015 18:59
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I'm not trying to claim that Islam has literally nothing to do with it. I'm claiming that attributing to it a primary significance is stupid.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:00
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This is horrible.  This week just keeps on piling human misery.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:04
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stinkles1112 posted:I'm not trying to claim that Islam has literally nothing to do with it. I'm claiming that attributing to it a primary significance is stupid. So what rallying call would they be using if not for radical islam?
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Jan 10, 2015 19:05
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:So what rallying call would they be using if not for radical islam? Who knows? That's not really a useful counterfactual, I think. I bet you and I would both agree that in the absence of Islam, there would still be a rallying call though, right? Like, all other things being equal, plug in any different religion or social pillar, the game would hardly change.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:07
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:So what rallying call would they be using if not for radical islam? "Goodluck Jonathan is a corrupt piece of poo poo"?
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Jan 10, 2015 19:08
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stinkles1112 posted:Who knows? That's not really a useful counterfactual, I think. I bet you and I would both agree that in the absence of Islam, there would still be a rallying call though, right? Like, all other things being equal, plug in any different religion or social pillar, the game would hardly change. I don't agree.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:11
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ThirdPartyView posted:"Goodluck Jonathan is a corrupt piece of poo poo"? That enables them to take women and children as sex slaves? Or kill thousands of innocent villagers. or force conversions?
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Jan 10, 2015 19:12
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:That enables them to take women and children as sex slaves? Or kill thousands of innocent villagers. or force conversions? Works for Kony. 
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Jan 10, 2015 19:12
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:So what rallying call would they be using if not for radical islam? Kanuri ethnic-linguistic identity, or geographic identity as residents of Borno. Boko Haram draws most of its support from particular areas and ethnicities rather than Nigerian Muslims as a whole.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:13
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There's really not much that can be done by outsiders against Boko Haram in my humble opinion so there's not really much debate to be had on that front. There could be a good debate to be had on how Nigeria ended up being so badly governed, but you have to willing to discuss bad decisions that were undertaken after decolonization too.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:14
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Effectronica posted:Kanuri ethnic-linguistic identity, or geographic identity as residents of Borno. Boko Haram draws most of its support from particular areas and ethnicities rather than Nigerian Muslims as a whole. I don't think these factors are more prominent a rally to do the horrific poo poo they have done, more so than the extent their religion enables them to recruit and do this (especially to women)
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Jan 10, 2015 19:14
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