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I'm glad that at least in this thread, people agree that Islam is only used as an excuse for these atrocious actions, and that muslims worldwide should not be associated with these barbarians.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:14
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:So what rallying call would they be using if not for radical islam? "gently caress those Southern cunts, who do they think they are?". With a side of "If you aren't against those bastards, you are against us.". And then everyone dies.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:15
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:I don't think these factors are more prominent a rally to do the horrific poo poo they have done, more so than the extent their religion enables them to recruit and do this (especially to women) So why don't Muslims from the rest of Nigeria join in?
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Jan 10, 2015 19:15
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:I don't agree. OK so for clarity's sake, you actually think that if it weren't for Islam, this wouldn't be happening?
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Jan 10, 2015 19:15
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:I don't think these factors are more prominent a rally to do the horrific poo poo they have done, more so than the extent their religion enables them to recruit and do this (especially to women) They'd be bad guys regardless of their religious justification.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:15
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Effectronica posted:So why don't Muslims from the rest of Nigeria join in? The reason they hold so much sway, is that they are joining!
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Jan 10, 2015 19:17
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Much like how ISIS gets people to join.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:17
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I think that the pervese extermist forms of Islam helps Boko Haram's leaders to a certain extent when it comes to recruiting and providing a justification for their actions, even if it is a piss poor justification.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:18
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:The reason they hold so much sway, is that they are joining! What? The majority of support and members for Boko Haram come from one province. The rest of the Muslim parts of the country only offer limited support for it.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:18
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:The reason they hold so much sway, is that they are joining! Not in huge numbers. Just a trickle of the disaffected and angry. It's enough to fuel an insurgency though.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:19
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It's heartening to see that even in noted left-wing echochamber D&D, "KILL ALL HAJIS" is definitely a viewpoint with a poo poo ton of currency. Good job world.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:20
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:Much like how ISIS gets people to join. See this is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. Islam is a useful tool to get people to behave in the way that the people running these awful organizations want them to. But it could just as easily be HSIS and they could all be Hindu, or whatever. The religion of the region certainly has a role to play but it is really overly simplistic to believe that the religion in and of itself is a primary motivator for what are CLEARLY political and social desires. The guys in ISIS want to make a new nation, and be in charge of it. Yes, they want it to be an Islamic State. But if they were a part of any other religion, and the rest of the situation was the same, they'd still want to make their own nation, and be in charge of it! The specific religion involved is, I repeat, a thin veneer of justification painted over actions that humans have been perpetrating in the name of many, many different deities and institutions for our entire history.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:24
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:Much like how ISIS gets people to join. ISIL is an internationalist movement, unlike Boko Haram. They also operated in a completely different fashion up until they declared themselves a caliphate. There's also the problem that 1.5 million Nigerians, largely Muslims, have fled Boko Haram's areas of operation as of the end of 2014.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:28
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If oppression from the west is such a huge driver of this why haven't we seen something similar in Vietnam?
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Jan 10, 2015 19:29
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tsa posted:If oppression from the west is such a huge driver of this why haven't we seen something similar in Vietnam? I seem to recall a fairly active resistance to Western intervention in Vietnam.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:30
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Effectronica posted:ISIL is an internationalist movement, unlike Boko Haram. They also operated in a completely different fashion up until they declared themselves a caliphate. There's also the problem that 1.5 million Nigerians, largely Muslims, have fled Boko Haram's areas of operation as of the end of 2014. They still are gaining recruits.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:39
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tsa posted:If oppression from the west is such a huge driver of this why haven't we seen something similar in Vietnam? Well, for one thing, Vietnam is dominated by the Kinh ethnicity and only a handful of ethnic groups (the Khmer Krom, Cham, and Degar) are dissatisfied with the governmental rule. For another thing the CPVN dominates both Buddhist and Catholic religious groups in Vietnam and is moving to incorporate Protestants as well.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:39
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:They still are gaining recruits. Okay, let's play along. How do you plan to eliminate Muslims in Nigeria? Nukes? Chemical weapons? Conscription and a campaign of genocide?
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Jan 10, 2015 19:40
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Effectronica posted:Okay, let's play along. How do you plan to eliminate Muslims in Nigeria? Nukes? Chemical weapons? Conscription and a campaign of genocide? I don't want to stop them, I'd rather we (us) stay out of it!
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Jan 10, 2015 19:41
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tsa posted:If oppression from the west is such a huge driver of this why haven't we seen something similar in Vietnam? Vietnam is a far more homogeneous country than Nigeria and in any any event the Minorities that supported the Americans (Montagnards) during the war were very badly treated afterwards with military conflict and masses of refugees fleeing the country so we kind of did see something similar actually! You ninny.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:41
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More maps for the As people have mentioned before the Presidential election is coming up in February pitting incumbent Goodluck Jonathan (PDP) against Muhammadu Buhari (APC), the former military ruler of Nigeria and perennial loser in presidential elections. First a look at the 2011 results:  You can see the North/South divide rather clearly in the Presidential results, on the left you have the Gubernatorial results. What you can see is that although people voted against the PDP in state elections when it came to the Presidential many Southerners opted for Jonathan over Buhari, it's also interesting to note the poor state performance of the CPC (Buhari's party) in State elections which was mirrored in the parliamentary results - his personal popularity wasn't enough to carry his party across the North. An important difference between 2011 and this election is the emergence of the APC, a unity opposition party that combined together the various anti-PDP parties into a single unit that has upturned the Nigerian political landscape. Now a look at the current distribution of State governors among the parties:  The APC has united Yoruba power brokers in the South-West with the Northern opposition into a single political force. This new political unity is important because Buhari is standing as the APC candidate, if his personality can carry the Northern states as before and the South-West votes by party then Buhari has a better chance of beating Jonathan and can lay claim to representing more than traditional Northern interests. The situation was actually worse for the PDP at the start of the year after a series of governors defected to the APC, they have since won back Ekiti in an election and Adamawa when they pushed through the impeachment of the governor on corruption charges. The question mark ballots indicate where the current governor is not eligible for re-election, as with most countries incumbents have an advantage. In other news the Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta (MEND) may have come out in support of Buhari - some groups have denied these reports though. This is interesting as the group draws on Johnathan's own Ijaw ethnic group and may be a sign that even his traditional power base is growing tired of his incompetence. kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 19:42
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:I don't want to stop them, I'd rather we (us) stay out of it! Okay, but how should the Nigerian government do it? Because if it's a consequence of them living in the poorest shithole in the country and embracing violent ideologies as a means to gain power and wealth, then it's more correctable than if it's due to Islam. khwarezm posted:Vietnam is a far more homogeneous country than Nigeria and in any any event the Minorities that supported the Americans (Montagnards) during the war were very badly treated afterwards with military conflict and masses of refugees fleeing the country so we kind of did see something similar actually! Nah, the Hmong in South Vietnam were largely anticommunist and Catholic and they didn't leave. (Most Hmong that migrated to the US left from Laos.) The Degar/Montagnards, Cham, and Khmer Krom are probably largely targeted for the same reason the PRC is/was settling Han into Tibet- a desire to enforce national unity by destroying ethnic enclaves
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Jan 10, 2015 19:44
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Effectronica posted:Okay, but how should the Nigerian government do it? Because if it's a consequence of them living in the poorest shithole in the country and embracing violent ideologies as a means to gain power and wealth, then it's more correctable than if it's due to Islam. Knowing the Nigerian government their campaign is probably going to involve a lot of collective punishment and scortched earth counter-guerilla efforts. I would say it would be good if they could develop a targeted, effective counterinsurgent campaign that pairs measured action with efforts to extend services to the neglected northern regions but that's just really unlikely to happen, even if Buhari ends up elected.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:50
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New Division posted:Knowing the Nigerian government their campaign is probably going to involve a lot of collective punishment and scortched earth counter-guerilla efforts. I would say it would be good if they could develop a targeted, effective counterinsurgent campaign that pairs measured action with efforts to extend services to the neglected northern regions but that's just really unlikely to happen, even if Buhari ends up elected. Well, yes, the Nigerian government and army are probably going to gently caress this up unless they've done a massive clandestine reappraisal of their efforts so far.
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Jan 10, 2015 19:54
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Effectronica posted:
Dude I'd be careful with this now, the Hmong didn't leave but there's still a lot of tension about respect towards their cultural and religious values, the Vietnamese don't have a good recent history with regard to not beating the poo poo out of Hmong pastors. In any event violence towards the Deger was often explicitly concerning the war and their hostility to the Vietnamese forces, saying this is down to copying the Chinese way of doing things is a simplification and its hardly like this excludes tensions built up over the war and before. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 19:55
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:I don't want to stop them, I'd rather we (us) stay out of it! ah so there we go with the interventionism can we just have the US Army brutally rape and torture you to death and broadcast it live to all participants in this conflict as a sort of halftime show?
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Jan 10, 2015 20:00
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icantfindaname posted:ah so there we go with the interventionism Are you sure you read that post right?
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Jan 10, 2015 20:04
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icantfindaname posted:ah so there we go with the interventionism Unsurprisingly one of the main supporters of Islamic mass murderers is an illiterate dumbass. Re-read that post you tool.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:06
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khwarezm posted:Dude I'd be careful with this now, the Hmong didn't leave but there's still a lot of tension about respect towards their cultural and religious values, the Vietnamese don't have a good recent history with regard to not beating the poo poo out of Hmong pastors. In any event violence towards the Deger was often explicitly concerning the war and their hostility to the Vietnamese forces, saying this is down to copying the Chinese way of doing things is a simplification and hardly like this excludes tensions built up over the war and before. Well, for one thing, it's difficult to disentangle matters because Protestants are largely ethnic minorities, and especially Hmong/Degar, so whether these are due to religious intolerance (and specifically intolerance for religions that are not under governmental control, since it's largely house churches rather than the official Evangelical Church of Vietnam that are targeted) or ethnic intolerance is difficult to measure with the limited data, unlike the demolition of Degar, Khmer Krom, and Cham buildings and archaeological sites and the resettlement of Kinh people into the Central Highlands and other minority-dominated areas. I'm also not saying that they're "copying the Chinese way". I'm saying that it's probably done for the same reasons of ensuring national unity by destroying ethnic enclaves and bringing history under the CPV's control. The same thing was done in France 150 years ago. Also, you're using one massacre that was committed by the NLF rather than by the NVA forces, and it's really debatable whether the NLF had any significant presence in the post-unification government. EDIT: To make this less implicit, if the goal was to get revenge for supporting the Americans, why is it resettlement (and not even of the Degar) rather than any of the other more direct and brutal ways they could attack the Degar? Effectronica fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 20:08
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stinkles1112 posted:The religion of the region certainly has a role to play but it is really overly simplistic to believe that the religion in and of itself is a primary motivator for what are CLEARLY political and social desires. Islam is not the motivator, or at least not a primary motivator, agreed. Islam is, however, the justification for the targets of violence, and the methods employed. Under the guise of Islamic teachings, civilians are targeted and killed.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:18
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is this the new thread for people to post "white people  " and use violence in africa as a way of airing their personal problems with SJWsArkane posted:Islam is, however, the justification for the targets of violence, and the methods employed. Under the guise of Islamic teachings, civilians are targeted and killed. as usual, you are totally wrong and dumb arkane which islamic teachings are the ones which justify killing civilians? please educate us, who do not understand yet the insidious nature of islam
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Jan 10, 2015 20:36
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Monsters are at it again:quote:A young girl — about 10 years old — was reportedly involved in a deadly suicide bombing Saturday at a bustling market in Nigeria. Witnesses described seeing the child walking with explosives strapped her body before a blast detonated that killed at least 19 people and injured many more in the city of Maiduguri. https://news.vice.com/article/young-girl-reportedly-used-as-suicide-bomber-in-latest-horrific-attack-in-nigeria
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Jan 10, 2015 20:38
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WORST FORUMS GUY posted:The reason they hold so much sway, is that they are joining! There are perhaps 180 million people in Nigeria. There are perhaps 10 thousand in Boko Haram. And that's being incredibly optimistic towards Boko Haram's numbers. They are probably a few thousand short of that with actual effective troops. Try again.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:41
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You don't need religious teachings (in the typical sense of the term) to justify massive violence and suppression of rights. All you need is an overarching belief in the big Other that guarantees acceptance for all actions undertaken in its service. As Zizek nicely points out, the atheist Stalinist era was the era of the big Other in Russia. God, in this case, was replaced by Historical Necessity: enacting the "will of history" was all the justification needed for gulags and mass killings.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:45
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Effectronica posted:Well, for one thing, it's difficult to disentangle matters because Protestants are largely ethnic minorities, and especially Hmong/Degar, so whether these are due to religious intolerance (and specifically intolerance for religions that are not under governmental control, since it's largely house churches rather than the official Evangelical Church of Vietnam that are targeted) or ethnic intolerance is difficult to measure with the limited data, unlike the demolition of Degar, Khmer Krom, and Cham buildings and archaeological sites and the resettlement of Kinh people into the Central Highlands and other minority-dominated areas. quote:I'm also not saying that they're "copying the Chinese way". I'm saying that it's probably done for the same reasons of ensuring national unity by destroying ethnic enclaves and bringing history under the CPV's control. The same thing was done in France 150 years ago. And yet its a lot easier to 'ensure national unity' when you can point to the recent of history of X minority group and argue that they have acted traitorously, I find the idea ridiculous that after the war the Vietnamese government sat down and said 'Well its been a decade long war where the Degar have been one of the most intransigent enemies and gained heavy support from the Americans, brutally violent fighting between our forces and theirs have afflicted the highlands and killed tons of people, but we'll let bygones be bygones and put all that aside as we create a new Vietnam. Oh and we're going to launch a campaign of cultural destruction, religious persecution and land confiscation directed at them for entirely unrelated reasons'. quote:EDIT: To make this less implicit, if the goal was to get revenge for supporting the Americans, why is it resettlement (and not even of the Degar) rather than any of the other more direct and brutal ways they could attack the Degar?
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Jan 10, 2015 21:01
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Boogaleeboo posted:There are perhaps 180 million people in Nigeria. There are perhaps 10 thousand in Boko Haram. And that's being incredibly optimistic towards Boko Haram's numbers. They are probably a few thousand short of that with actual effective troops. Try again. I don't get the impression that Boko Haram lacks for manpower. I don't know precisely how many troops they have, but they've got enough to regularly roll over Nigerian military positions around their area of operations. I think any estimates of their numbers has tended towards underestimation, maybe due to the fact that Nigeria wants to downplay the problem.
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Jan 10, 2015 21:08
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khwarezm posted:I have to be honest man I really think this is splitting hairs to a large extent, it certainly helps that said minorities are often disproportionately non-Buddhist/irreligious and especially protestant. Religious persecution tends to fall on these minorities the worst, is that a coincidence? Probably not, but it's difficult to sort out with limited data! quote:And yet its a lot easier to 'ensure national unity' when you can point to the recent of history of X minority group and argue that they have acted traitorously, I find the idea ridiculous that after the war the Vietnamese government sat down and said 'Well its been a decade long war where the Degar have been one of the most intransigent enemies and gained heavy support from the Americans, brutally violent fighting between our forces and theirs have afflicted the highlands and killed tons of people, but we'll let bygones be bygones and put all that aside as we create a new Vietnam. Oh and we're going to launch a campaign of cultural destruction, religious persecution and land confiscation directed at them for entirely unrelated reasons'. I find it harder to believe that they singled out the highlands rather than punishing all South Vietnamese that supported the Americans, or that they persecute the Cham, who very specifically did not support the Americans, or the Khmer Krom, who switched sides from supporting the Americans to fighting them, for these reasons. quote:First its not revenge on the Americans, its revenge on people in Vietnam who supported the Americans. Second, what kind of question is this? Are you saying 'Why didn't they just genocide them'? For one resettlement from lands they own because of government mandate is pretty loving terrible and considering that an awful lot of Degar died while fighting in the war or fled soon after and are still pretty openly discriminated against in Vietnamese society I think saying it could have worse is pretty drat weak. First of all, you're illiterate, second of all, you'd think they'd do more caste minority poo poo like banning Degar from employment or cutting them off from social welfare programs or other things that materially assault the Degar instead of damaging their culture and history. One is more consistent with the idea of brutal revenge than the other.
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Jan 10, 2015 21:11
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Effectronica posted:Probably not, but it's difficult to sort out with limited data! quote:First of all, you're illiterate, second of all, you'd think they'd do more caste minority poo poo like banning Degar from employment or cutting them off from social welfare programs or other things that materially assault the Degar instead of damaging their culture and history. One is more consistent with the idea of brutal revenge than the other. Far be it from me to say but I think kicking Degar off of their land is commonly considered a material assault, oh and beating their religious leaders may be considered physical assault, possibly. I can't really say I find the idea that they didn't persecute the Degar enough to be a very good argument, but then I'll keep in mind that until they reach the required weight in blood we can't really say anything can we? E; Misread something. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 22:18
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Presumably the land that was taken had economic and perhaps strategic value as well as cultural (having a cultural attachment to your homeland if you've been there for at least a few generations isn't exclusive to Native Americans). I'm going to guess that they were relocated is much less able to provide economic and/or military security. Re: Boko Haram's numbers: last time I checked, even ISIS was pretty small compared to the militaries of most neighbouring countries. Strangely enough, war is about more than comparing some numbers, which is why the two most powerful militaries in history could wipe life from the face of the Earth but cannot control Afganistan. Considering they've declared all Nigerian Muslims outside of their movement infidels, and that this breakdown is along ethnic lines, assuming that the general population of Nigerian Muslims are a recruiting pool for Boko seems rather like assuming that people from Southern Ireland must have been rushing to join the Orange Order because they're also Christians.
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Jan 10, 2015 23:31
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tsa posted:If oppression from the west is such a huge driver of this why haven't we seen something similar in Vietnam?
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Jan 11, 2015 00:58
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