|
Is there any movement in the Tamir Rice shooting case in Cleveland? Is there any indictment or charge? Any discipline or dismissal of the shooter or just the usual circling of wagons by Cleveland PD?
|
#
¿
Mar 10, 2015 15:59
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 06:50 |
|
|
I have to wonder what the odds are that the cop's lawyer in the Walter Scott case can somehow finagle an all white jury and sell them an acquittal. I'm sure there must be high profile lawyers salivating to make a big splash getting this guy off.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 8, 2015 12:25
|
|
|
So is there a consensus agreement that police killings of citizens, and in general the easy resort to deadly force by U.S. police, is a problem? In U.S. society as a whole I think it's a majority opinion but not an overwhelming consensus, I suspect here in DnD it's pretty much consensus. If you were to view problems systemically, I'd say some major factors, all which have been discussed here exhaustively, include: 1. All the police are carrying firearms when the majority of law enforcement activities may not require this 2. Training and doctrine leading too readily to the use of the power of arrest and physical restraining and subduing citizens when less "escalatory" means might well suffice and not incur the risk of a physical confrontation 3. In many instances the police shooter may not have much or any empathy with the citizen, particularly if they view the population being policed as a hostile occupied territory or if racism is at play, i.e. they simply don't care about or value the citizen's life and are therefore more cavalier about snuffing it out 4. The police may, in general, feel that they are almost certain to get away with a "bad shoot" because they and their partners will be the only surviving witness and their account will have the benefit of the doubt over any other civilian witness in the absence of other objective evidence. This makes them less reluctant to use deadly force. This doesn't mean that they are necessarily looking to go kill someone, just that the degree of caution exercised is less than if they felt they were more likely to be held to account if they improperly used deadly force. This is similar to the argument that doctors will be more precise in their care and adhere more carefully to good standards in their practice if they are subject to penalty or suit if review of their care shows it to be lacking, than if they are immune from external penalty. Some of these factors, like racism, are deeply endemic in U.S. society and very difficult to eradicate. However others can be readily addressed either by policy or technology, e.g. have only a subset of police units be equipped with firearms and called upon in specific circumstances, change policy to severely narrow the circumstances in which physical restraint and arrest are used (reducing or eliminating Eric Garner type confrontations), and equip all police with bodycams recording every interaction with civilians with strict procedures for their use and handling of the video and severe penalties for the equipment being nonoperational or disabled. It may take a generation or more to successfully address issues like racism or the class and warfare of populations like Ferguson's being treated like an occupied territory and being shaken down for revenue. But by tackling some of the systemic issues that can be directly and immediately addressed we should hopefully be able to significantly reduce the incidence of this type of killing in a relatively short time. In other words, fix what we CAN fix and eliminate some of the factors that contribute to these killings so we can at least begin to decrease the scope of the problem. To me, the issue of bodycams is pretty much a no brainer at this point, the main issues being cost and the policy and procedures of how to handle the cameras and video, when they are to be activated, how the data is handled and who has access to it, what are the penalties for disabling the camera or not using it or loss or tampering with the video. I can definitely see arguments where people may feel this will be less effective than I feel it will be, but I feel it's one of those measures that is much more likely to help than harm, and I fail to see how it would hurt. Assuming cost is not an issue for the moment, I'd like to hear compelling arguments against mandatory bodycam use to record every stop and interaction with civilians by police.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2015 15:43
|
|
|
The pat response I'm starting to get to the idea that maybe only special cop units should have guns is "well we have the 2nd Amendment in the U.S., anyone might have a gun, therefore all police must have guns, period, stop, end of story". Is this really the end of that argument or is it not realistic despite the high incidence of gun ownership in the U.S. to consider that 100 percent of police might not have to carry firearms?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2015 16:25
|
|
|
ChairMaster posted:Man at first I thought the guy who filmed it had balls of steel, but after reading that he actually took it to the cops instead of immediately making copies and distributing them as quickly as possible I think he might have just been an idiot. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/09/meet-the-man-whose-video-led-to-murder-charge-against-south-carolina-cop/ He did/does have balls of steel. Going to the police first was dumb, but at least he realized that before doing something terrible like turning over the video to the cops. "Say... does anyone know you came here to the station today?" "You know what, maybe this wasn't such a good idea, I think I'll be leaving now."
|
|
#
¿
Apr 9, 2015 17:48
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:I honestly believe it blinds most people in the search for causes. So what the hell is your point, dude? The cause of what? Police killings? Or the cause of a guy acting like a piece of poo poo? I listed some causes of police killings earlier. Some can be addressed directly with methods that don't require fixing society at large. Stuff like mandatory bodycam usage removes a lot of the temptation to act like a piece of poo poo because it substantially ramps up the likelihood that lovely behavior will be identified and accountability enforced compared to the current situation where the miraculous appearance of a bystander with a phone cam is almost the only event that can cause accountability for a wrongful killing by police. What are your ideas aside from "wondering about the causes" why dude would try to cover his tracks with a planted weapon? That's beyond obvious, because most people in any walk of life are venal pieces of poo poo, and if you put them in a situation where they are unlikely to be held to account for serious misdeeds due to the whole system and society taking their word for it when they are the sole chronicler of an event, then the likelihood of such misdeeds will be substantially greater than if they knew there were other eyes documenting their actions. That's true in any walk of life not just police work, we just happen to have set up this situation with police where they have that benefit of the doubt. You may have very few who are actually looking to kill, but you have a whole lot more people who are otherwise "good" or "ordinary/neutral" who may be a whole lot less careful about when they pull out and use their gun, and when they take other actions that make it more likely that a situation will arise where they will be "forced" to use their gun. What is your argument, aside from poking a stick into things here?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2015 06:53
|
|
|
You can argue about how easy it is to interpret whether an individual police shooting is justified, but if you don't compile the data you can never begin to analyze the data to look for common threads, racial demograhpics of the incidents, how many were traffic stops, how many involved drugs or alcohol, how much experience the officers had in each incident, what role the officers' partners (if they had one) played etc. We compile case logs, data bases for all kinds of things. For instance, Divers Alert Network tracks dive related deaths and compiles as much information as possible about each incident and releases an annual report with a description of each and every fatality and categorizes and analyzes as best they can. When a specific type of problem in medicine is identified, for example, unexpected blindness resulting after long spine surgeries, a database was set up to collect information about each and every occurrence to study possible causes to address the problem. My own medical specialty has had a long running project to compile data on every case that resulted in a closed malpractice claim (i.e. generally a lawsuit where there was a finding or settlement against the doctor/hospital), identifying several different categories of incident and resulting in some changes in practice. Closed claims is a crude method and by no means captures every incident, but it's far better than collecting no data at all. The UK has had much more thorough analysis of things like deaths associated with surgery looking at ALL cases over a period of many years. Police killings of citizens is an issue that cries out for such data collection and analysis. For instance if you found that in half of cases utilizing the power of arresting the citizen or physically subduing them, resulting in a physical confrontation that escalated, could have easily been avoided, then it suggests you could substantially reduce the problem just by utilizing alternate modalities whenever possible. If you find out that 95 percent of the killings are white officers killing blacks and that shootings resulted in these encounters at 5 times the likelihood of traffic stops/arrests for the same cause when white officers stop whites, then it tells you race or race stereotype attitudes/racism is a problem. Etc. etc. You can't necessarily divine with certainty whether a particular shooting was justified, but the data in aggregate has great power and can show you some obvious issues you wouldn't bbe sure about looking at an individual case or even several cases. You could do studies with half a police force wearing body cams and half not and see if there is a difference in shooting type confrontations and incidents, and even switch the groups halfway to account for differences between individuals. But if you refuse to even gather data to look at, you are essentially saying that either there is no problem, the status quo is fine, or that you have no interest in tackling it or improving the situation.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 10, 2015 19:40
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:It seems like being tazed may be safer for the prisoner I'm thinking in the Virginia case the opposite was true. Also, re: Oklahoma case (lol thought I was reaching for the Taser silly me), even if it wasn't considered malicious, isn't making that kind of mistake a HUGE loving DEAL since it results in the death of a person you weren't trying to kill? Doesn't making that error alone warrant severe discipline and/or dismissal of the officer? Like in the Oakland Fruitvale Station case? The official response "honest mistake" is like spilling your morning coffee on the floor is an honest mistake. No big deal, really. Edit: If a cop killed someone by accidentally running over them on the sidewalk driving carelessly, I get the feeling that would be considered a lot bigger deal than accidentally shooting them with a gun instead of a Taser, simply because a gun is involved in the latter case. I also suspect the "eh, honest mistake" response would probably not be the official word if it was a white citizen who was killed, but call me crazy. Zwabu fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 12, 2015 |
|
#
¿
Apr 12, 2015 21:29
|
|
|
Rhesus Pieces posted:http://m.newsok.com/sheriffs-office-reserve-deputy-who-fired-fatal-shot-was-among-lots-of-wealthy-donors-in-reserve-program/article/5407923 Jesus H loving Christ. I assumed it was an actual cop. What the everloving gently caress.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 12, 2015 21:34
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:But part of the impunity for police officers has to do with juries favoring law enforcement over minority defendants. The no-bills in the cases of Eric Garner and the SWAT team that burned a toddler is a problem with society that you can't fix by changing policies and procedures. Interesting that you should use the Eric Garner no-bill as an example of something that's a society problem that can't be addressed with policy/procedure because I think it is exactly the opposite of what you say. It's very likely that Garner's death was no-billed precisely because the DA and Grand Jury procedure serves as a gatekeeper and barrier to the policemen being indicted. Since the DA's in these cases often have a working relationship with the police involved, there is a systemic conflict of interest in their vigorously pursuing justice for a police victim like Garner in that it might hamper their working relationship with the police there. It's precisely this sort of thing that policies and procedures can help address even if class, race and other societal issues may still provide an impediment to justice being served. For instance, if there was an indictment and it went to trial, it could happen that the cop's defense attorney was able to finagle an all white Staten Island jury and get an improbable acquittal due to racial attitudes. But at least there wouldn't be the systemic barrier of a conflicted DA tanking the case before a grand jury and preventing a trial in the first place. If you don't take baby steps you can't take the bigger ones. I haven't read up on the South Carolina SLED, but it sounds like something independent of the local jurisdiction PDs and maybe that's why there's some actual action on some cases there?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2015 16:28
|
|
|
hobbesmaster posted:I think most people in here don't actually know what they want. They don't actually want "smarter" cops per se, but cops that are better able to handle stressful situations and deescalate instead of continuing to escalate. This is a cultural and training problem, and probably requires significantly more training than US police departments can afford. Liquid Communism posted:Yeah, I asked the copgoons about that the other day, and was saddened at the response. There just isn't will nor budget for the kind of training that a lot of us want people empowered as agents of the government with a license to kill to have. Wait, so how do other developed countries avoid having their police shooting fleeing citizens in the back, shooting guys who are restrained on the ground etc.? Do they have extensive training way beyond what the U.S. does? Are they mostly not carrying guns like in England? Or is it simply a matter of they don't have a large ethnic minority that their society doesn't get too concerned about getting slaughtered?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2015 20:16
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Wow that is quite a video. I suppose the main point, aside from the discipline and training of this policeman, is his willingness to increase the risk to his own life in order to decrease the chance that he'll have to take the other man's life.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2015 16:01
|
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:Technically he "increased his risk" by failing to immediately kill the guy. Technically, the only way to truly avoid being murdered by everyone you meet is to kill them first. He was just brave enough to wait for confirmation of a threat instead of opening fire as soon as he had an excuse. Yeah this was what I meant by exposing himself to increased risk. Obviously he didn't feel the threat was credible, but he left an opening where if he'd read it wrong the guy could have killed him, or his window to stop the guy killing him would have been a lot smaller.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2015 01:13
|
|
|
My Rhythmic Crotch posted:The man who was recently believed to have been given a "nickel ride" by Baltimore PD has passed away due to complications from his injuries and/or surgery (I'm not a doctor). Link to story. This one is loving heartbreaking. They gave this guy some savage, horrible injuries in an especially cruel way quote:Police haven't said what crime Gray was suspected of or how he sustained his injuries. A brief witness video of the end of the arrest, obtained by the Baltimore Sun, showed officers carrying Gray toward a police van as his legs dragged on the ground. In another witness video that aired on the local CBS affiliate, WJZ-TV, he could be heard screaming. How can the police not have any statement about what happened for a week afterward? Aren't they required to make a report about any arrest right away? In the absence of such a statement or report, how could anyone conclude anything other than that they're getting their story straight?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2015 11:58
|
|
|
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/04/22/sen-ben-cardin-rep-john-conyers-introduce-end-racial-profiling-act/ http://www.ibtimes.com/end-racial-profiling-act-2015-democratic-us-lawmakers-re-introduce-minority-1892669 Not strictly about police killings, but somewhat related, a bill attempting to address racial profiling by law enforcement including data collection and reporting mandates was reintroduced. I doubt its prospects in a GOP House and Senate are bright, but still, there it is.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 23, 2015 01:27
|
|
|
So we have an anonymous prisoner's supposed account of events, who didn't SEE any of it, as related by a police spokesperson. (And it's not even like the anonymous prisoner could have been offered incentive for leniency for giving the "right" account of events, or that the thing couldn't have been spun out of whole cloth given we aren't given the guy's name and he doesn't speak for himself.) Oooooookaaaaaay.....
|
|
#
¿
Apr 30, 2015 03:57
|
|
|
The pattern is really disgusting. Say nothing, but then leak out anonymous bullshit to muddy the waters and confuse everyone.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 30, 2015 04:26
|
|
|
Policeman throws intoxicated woman forcefully to the ground (Round Rock, TX): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNp30L0TvE0 She may have offered resistance but it doesn't look like he was having any particular difficulty managing her. This is cellphone video from a bystander who wanted to remain anonymous.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 30, 2015 05:34
|
|
|
Cichlid the Loach posted:Anyway, apparently that prisoner who reportedly said that Gray broke his own neck was the last prisoner to be loaded onto the van, AFTER the stop where Gray was found lying on the floor of the van. And the same prisoner was previously reported as saying the ride was quiet and uneventful. Just to sum up, an unnamed source that's totally within the police says that a prisoner, who cannot be reached for confirmation, who was loaded into the van well after Freddie had been found battered on the floor, and who could not see Freddie, totally said that a man who could not sit or stand had hurled himself against the walls with such force that he broke his own neck and shattered his own larynx. Not only is that prisoner anonymous, he's not even quoted directly in his own words, it's the police interrogator's version of what he said.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 30, 2015 19:51
|
|
|
Radish posted:Filing blatantly fake charges should be a firing at the very minimum. Preferable he should be charged himself since he tried to use the system to ruin a person's life. Is there like a PoliceCams.com type of site that compiles ALL of these incidents that can be found?
|
|
#
¿
May 1, 2015 01:13
|
|
|
sugar free jazz posted:“And they’re trying to make it seem like I told them that, I made it like Freddie Gray did that to himself,” Allen said. “Why the gently caress would he do that to himself ?” Please link where this came from. I'm pretty loving interested in this particular sleazy little corner of the story. Now that the police have released what they have to the State, I'm curious how the leaked third hand "witness thinks he was bashing himself against the car" story actually reads in the report, or whether it even exists at all. I was envisioning something on the order of: "Heard him bumping against the walls of the van" "Would you say it was possible that he was doing it to himself?" "Well I guess anything's possible, but.." "Thanks that's plenty!" *Leaks report to WaPo that anonymous witness felt Gray might have been trying to harm himself, WaPo eagerly publishes, triumphantly trumpeted on right wing Facebook pages and shows nationwide*
|
|
#
¿
May 1, 2015 17:09
|
|
|
I wonder if any conversations are going on in the various police departments around the country to the effect of "hey dumbshits, cell phone cameras exist, they are a thing, they are not going away and we need to clean and tighten our poo poo up."
|
|
#
¿
May 1, 2015 17:15
|
|
|
Are the usually tireless police apologists here gathering energy or something? Waiting for a decent set of talking points? Or back into the weeds until the officers are acquitted?
|
|
#
¿
May 1, 2015 21:49
|
|
|
PostNouveau posted:So there was that video of that unreported stop that the store owner said the authorities got a hold of. I wonder if there's something heinous on it in light of the charges. A possible scenario is that they are driving around, whether they are intending to rough Gray up with the ride or not, and at some point, probably the point where he smashed his head on the bolt and broke his neck, they hear that sickening crunch and then no more noise out of Gray. They probably go "oh gently caress" and stop to look Gray over and survey the situation, and realize he's in grave condition. The decision then becomes whether to seek immediate medical attention for the guy, or take a course of action (longer ride, picking up other prisoner etc.) likely to result in Gray's death but removing a witness against them. If something like that happened it might be very difficult to prove intent unless one cop rolled over on the others, but it might not be hard to go for a "depraved indifference" kind of scenario where you have a seriously injured man whose life is in danger who you didn't take care to promptly bring to medical attention. If the unreported stop shows some of those events it could be pretty damning, like if it shows them examining a limp and lifeless appearing Gray, looking around and stuffing him back in the van and then going on an additional half hour of ride without reporting any of it. But I have some questions about whether the video actually exists, hopefully it does. Didn't the Korean shop owner say something about the cops first coming and getting copies of the video (before the riots) and then his laptop with the video being looted during the riot?
|
|
#
¿
May 1, 2015 23:17
|
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:The driver is currently getting a "depraved indifference" second-degree murder charge, as his driving is most directly responsible for the fatal injuries. If the store video showed the van swerving violently and suddenly braking repeatedly with no other vehicles or any reason for it then that would more or less prove the "rough ride" scenario also. I hope we can see some of this video eventually.
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2015 00:19
|
|
|
STAC Goat posted:if they can somehow prove they knew Gray was hurt mid ride maybe that heightens it? I think the medical examiner finding that has been reported, that Gray had a wound on his head that matched exactly a bolt inside the van, is central to this. A high energy car accident type blow to the head could easily have caused the cervical spine injury that killed him.
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2015 01:16
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:What the gently caress does any of that have to do with the topic at hand? No, seriously. Explain yourself, or your argument will be ignored. It just seems like trolling that's fallen to the next lower level of effort, just posting random crap to get people to go "whaaaa?"
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2015 02:40
|
|
|
Boris Galerkin posted:What's this passive voice thing about? I'm serious I have no idea what it means. Instead of "the policeman shot Mr. Smith" the story will say "a shooting occurred".
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2015 15:34
|
|
|
Not so "hulking" now, is he?
|
|
#
¿
May 2, 2015 16:54
|
|
|
The scary thing about that Virginia footage is I wonder how close those cops were to shooting a bunch of holes in the guy having a stroke. Before I read further and found out what the deal was, the early part of the footage made me think of a guy having a seizure or some kind of medical issue, he just didn't seem to be responsive. The police on the other hand were all "CITIZEN WILL NOT COMPLY YOU HAVE 3 SECONDS TO COMPLY".
|
|
#
¿
May 24, 2015 14:19
|
|
|
So on the one hand the McKinney rageaholic cop felt the need to run after the kids who were running away, and them MAKING him run after them angered him. When, uh, he could have just let them run away. So those kids had to be detained and stay on the ground. On the other hand some other kids made him mad because they wouldn't leave, to the point where he had to throw the one girl on the ground and sit on her. I don't see a coherent concept behind what's happening beside to just intimidate people and rage out.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 8, 2015 04:04
|
|
|
GonSmithe posted:So apparently the officer in the McKinney video added one of the videos of him assaulting the girl to his YouTube playlist "Police training" yesterday.  they made him take down the videos apparently. The profile exists but there are no videos or playlists.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 8, 2015 04:19
|
|
|
http://abc7.com/news/unarmed-man-shot-by-lapd-in-grave-condition/796298/ The footage from this story about the "man shot for waving towel" in L.A. story contains the police representative saying "an officer involved shooting occurred" instead of "the officer fired and shot the man". The passive voice thing mentioned many times here.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 20, 2015 23:22
|
|
|
In the case of the cop who shot his wife that is being discussed, even after the second time he shot her (multiple times), it's inexcusable for them to spend any substantial amount of time "talking him down" even after the daughter was rescued because the presence of the guy and his gun, even if he's pointing it at himself or at no one, prevents emergency medical personnel from entering the scene and extracting the wife, as the scene is not secured. No one can assume that she was dead unless, as previously stated, her head was obviously blown off her shoulders or something. Even if she was silent and not moving. Any amount of time beyond the briefest attempt to give him an opportunity to surrender himself substantially reduced her odds of survival if she was still alive. In major trauma scenarios minimizing the time to transport the patient to definitive care (surgery, placed on a ventilator, blood transfusion etc.) is critical, minutes can make a big difference and a half hour of avoidable delay can be the whole game. So even if the longest period of time was after the second time she was shot, it's still a huge problem. If the reason the officers didn't fire on their colleague was because of a threat to themselves, such as he was shooting at them from such a place that they had a high risk of adding their own deaths to the toll without an excellent chance of neutralizing him, that would be a bit more understandable, but the story doesn't seem to read like that, seems more like they were trying to prevent him shooting himself without much regard for his victim.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 28, 2015 01:54
|
|
|
DARPA posted:http://www.nj.com/monmouth/index.ssf/2015/06/what_did_cops_give_suspected_shooter_during_asbury.html This article has cell phone bystander video of the event including the shots fired, although it is clipped into a minute of excerpts.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 29, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
I don't think you can fairly compare the Neptune NJ case with the Walmart shooting at all. In the NJ case the murderer demonstrated very clearly that they were armed and using deadly force against a victim. If there were any doubt it was removed when the man shot his wife a second time with a volley of bullets. Yet still nothing was done for an extended period of time where neutralizing him could result in her receiving medical attention and at least a chance of survival. The police in the Walmart situation had vague and incomplete information and shot immediately without making any effort to confirm the threat posed by the person with the weapon, as did the cop in the Tamir Rice case. The NJ cop was definitely armed and definitely shooting. Not only did him shooting his wife establish his intent and the threat he posed without a doubt, it imposed an additional burden on the cops on the scene to resolve the situation as quickly as possible to allow aid to the injured party, which would have been very different had it been merely a hostage situation where he hadn't already shot someone.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 29, 2015 20:45
|
|
|
Raerlynn posted:Okay, so building on this - would you be okay if becoming a police officer required a type of licensing similar to a lawyer or a doctor, and that revoking that license means the individual can never be employed in law enforcement in any capacity? Just to correct this point, medical licensing (the main barrier to entry to practicing medicine) is done by the states independently of each other. There is nothing to prevent someone from losing their license in one state from getting one to practice in another, and such things have happened many times before. Now each state will have a set of questions the applicant for a new license or renewal must answer, and they include things like asking whether you have been convicted of a crime, whether you have lost your license in a state or lost privileges to practice in a facility etc. that you must answer, but the applicant is free to lie about these. How much background checking is done by the states is up to them, I'm sure it varies greatly, I'd hope that they would all at least check each applicant for a criminal record but I don't even know if this is done. There is a federal database, the National Practitioner Data Bank, that maintains information about doctors that licensing boards and medical facilities can access, but I think it's inconsistent what kind of information is submitted to it.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 12, 2015 20:01
|
|
|
DARPA posted:http://www.abc15.com/news/local-new...le-she-is-naked Interesting: quote:There was also no video from his body camera for the call, records show. Good on his partner for reporting concerns about what happened to his superiors, though, if true.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 15, 2015 22:33
|
|
|
Genocide Tendency posted:If Darkie McRetard's parents are going to cry excessive force, OPD should have had the chance to at least earn it. Genocide Tendency posted:If Darkie McRetard Genocide Tendency posted:If Darkie McRetard Seriously, you guys are going to continue to reply to this poster?
|
|
#
¿
Jul 18, 2015 02:23
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 06:50 |
|
|
Aye.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 19, 2015 01:18
|
|