Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Randbrick posted:

Virginia, which is not the best, but also not the worst state in the Union in this regard. The horror stories about de facto due process speedy trial violations hit a definite peak in Mississippi and Alabama, unsurprisingly. Prosecutors, of course, cannot waive rights on behalf of opposing counsel. What they can do, however, is nolle prosse generally at a whim. This is not particular to any given state system.

Defense counsel are generally placed into a procedural posture where almost anything they do other than opposing continuance will in some respect waive speedy trial protections.

Practically speaking, you would need a fantastically inept prosecutor to actually endanger a case by speedy trial when it is so much easier to adopt a catch and release policy.

A competent prosecutor doesn't wait until after speedy trial timeframes have elapsed to nolle prosse. When their case is unformed, unprepared, or unresearched, they generally offer a plea on the day of trial, with the threat of continuance or nolle prosse if that plea is rejected. The former will hold a client without bond over for at least 2 weeks, while the latter will result in re-arrest and is actually a tangible threat even to a client who has bond. Of course, this will also typically result in a client losing jail credit for time served prior to incarceration on the "new" charge.

I do not mean to say that the nolle prosse implicates double jeopardy on a de jure level. The problem is that courts do not recognize the de facto harm that defendants face in a system where the prosecution has a largely unfettered ability to skirt the actual protections which the 5th Amendment is supposed to guarantee by pressing a reset button on their litigation.

The Constitution may not comprehend that people lose their jobs and their homes by pre-trial incarceration, nor that even a $500 fee on a secured bond is often more than many can afford. But defendants understand pretty well that a prosecutor has the power to simply restart a case if they don't feel like preparing it in advance of trial, and that if they fight those cases they can find themselves arrested again at some point in the near future, with no advanced warning but what the daily warrant report may provide. That is an extremely compelling form of leverage, and the only actual protection against its compulsive force is a trial court level judiciary willing to stand up to the local District/Commonwealth Attorney's office.

This is one place where California has a great system.
Misdemeanor:
Arraigned in custody (even if you get out later): 30 actual days to a sworn jury panel
Arraigned out of custody: 45 days
Penalty is dismissal with prejudice. No refiles.
Time waivers can be given and withdrawn. If withdrawn, 30 day count down.

Felony:
Pre-lim within 10 days
Trial within 60d of arraignment on info
Penalty is dismissal. 1 refile.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2015 05:24

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 13:40

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

A screwdriver can gently caress someone up. I've seen a far share of adw screwdriver. A well placed one can kill and a poorly placed one can ruin your week or function of a limb. It is a reasonably common carried weapon because unlike a knife or a gun, it won't get you arrested.
It is really, really hard to see what is going on there. It does look like he moved toward an officer, if he charged? Hard to tell.
I am curious what exactly was said on the call. "My son is chasing me, threatening to kill me with a screwdriver" is different than "my son says he is hearing voices and needs to go to the hospital."

The problem here, regardless of whether the shoot was "good" is that the police have become the first point of contact for any mental illness situation. Yet, thier training on dealing with the mentally ill in ways that don't use force is piss poor. Even if that was valid self-defense, thay kid didn't have to die. Once mom was out of the house, you can de-escalate, back off, and talk him down. To a person having an episode, moving in, barking orders, and actong aggressive is going to backfire. Command presence, which is all the rage at the academy is almost sure to backfire in a situation like this.
Watch a social worker talk down someone having an episode. It is amazing. LAPD, who is rarely at the forefront of anything good, is actually starting to do good stuff by teaming social workers with cops for situations like this, though it would probably be a good thing for all officers to recieve some training like that as well as training for what doesn't work.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 22:30

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Dum Cumpster posted:

Apparently anyone that you think is physically intimidating can also be a threat even if they aren't holding onto a weapon.

He is holding a weapon. A screwdriver is a fairly common weapon.
Now that doesn't mean they couldn't have handled it differently, they should have, but calling him unarmed is incorrect.

A more valid question is did he use it as a weapon. That is much less clear.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 22:55

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Condiv posted:

you don't need a head on shot of the scene to see not much happened for cops to be scared of. the kid traveled probably a grand total of 5 feet between the entrance of his doorway to where he died. he apparently stepped out on to the porch in front of his door while the camera was turned, when the shots were fired he was stepping off that and then he fell and died on the pavement. i'm not sure what threatening gestures he's supposed to have made in those few seconds that would justify his shooting

He only really moved a foot or two. The problem is that the cops were only about 5 feet away.
The "gesture" he could have made is moving the screwdriver to the point it was at when we last saw it to something in a stabbing motion. We can't see that. He also could have been walking out the door.
If he was about to stab the officer, then a firearm, not a taser is the correct choice. A taser can fail even when it hits its target.
Honestly, talking about whether or not this is a justified shooting is pointless. Without a clear video or an admission, we'll never know exactly what happened.
However, what is clear is that this did not have to happen. Once mom leaves and they see the potential weapon, they can start backing long before the motion. They know this is a MH call -- they can alter their actions to be less aggressive and more compatible with persons with MH issues. The problem here is that the officers knew the person had serious mental health issues and treated him like someone who was a totally rational actor. Command presence doesn't work with the seriously mentally ill, hell, it only kind of works on the stone sober and completely sane.
Then of course, there's the question is why the hell are the police responding to this type of call if there has been no violence alleged (whether this is true is an open question). They are exactly the wrong type of person for this type of call. The reason of course is that in the US we have no one else, no one properly trained to respond to MH issues.

nm fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Mar 18, 2015

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 23:52

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

The problem with tasers for deadly force incidents is that they malfunction a lot. One prong goes in, the other doesn't. I see that a lot with my clients who get tased (well attempted). That is fine for someone who is physically non-compliant or doesn't pose a deadly risk. The taser is a replacement for the club or pepper stray not the firearm.
I'm not saying he did nor did not pose such a risk here, I think the camera angle makes it unclear (and the police stories are going to be self-serving), but if he did, the close distance between him and the officers means that if the taser fails, there is no backup.

They had at least 5 seconds (actually a long time as these go) from the point of seeing the weapon (yelling commands to drawing the weapon), knowing he had MH issues. Instead of backing up and de-escalating, they either stood ground or even moved closer and barked orders. Regardless of what this guy did in those 5 seconds, if they had acted more appropriately for the situation this kid would be in a mental hospital somewhere.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:01

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

blunt for century posted:

Alright, so this fat 38 year old mentally challenged guy is resistant to mace, and impossible to hit with a taser, and was heard yelling "I WANT TO STAB A COP WITH THIS HERE SCREWDRIVER". gently caress it, just shoot him.

How about they mace him, then while he's distracted and can't see (very well) they can tase him from behind. Then they can tackle and disarm him while he's incapacitated or use riot shields or something. My point is that they had a whole fuckload of other options available, but they decided to, yet again, escalate the situation immediately and then start shooting the scary scary black man

My problem is your getting to a point where force was needed. It shouldn't have been needed.
The problem here is that once force becomes needed, the non-lethal options carry a greater risk of GBI or death. I am somewhat surprised that people don't see a screwdriver as a deadly weapon, but I guess I see poo poo every day that most people don't see. If he was taking the worst possible action in the period we can't see much of him, it is possible that deadly force was the "best" option.
The problem is that we shouldn't have gotten to that point.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:36

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

semper wifi posted:

It was a totally justified shooting. The cops in this case really didn't do anything wrong. Like I said before it probably could have been done better by someone, somewhere, but it's silly to expect the cops in that situation to do much thinking beyond oh poo poo->shoot.

It could have been a totally justified shooting. We don't know because the video doesn't show enough.
He could have been rushing the officer to the right in a stabbing motion, he could have been going to his mother.

There's a big difference.

SedanChair posted:

Anything can be a deadly weapon, that doesn't mean it's going to be. If you sneak up on somebody in prison and shank them with a screwdriver, yeah they could die. If you are a fully tooled up officer with a vest and least four different force options hanging from your belt, it's pretty loving unlikely. A baton is sufficient.

Most police vests are not stab resistant. Which is stupid as hell, but doesn't help you once someone is coming at you with a stabbing weapon.
I've seen people messed up in fights (not just stabbing in the back) with screwdrivers.

nm fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Mar 19, 2015

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:39

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Zeitgueist posted:

I think people are more upset that "black man holding screwdriver" can be so immediately justified as a good kill.

I think there's only one person arguing that here, and you're not going to change his mind.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:41

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Florida Betty posted:

So today a white supremacist went on a shooting spree in Arizona, but the police were actually able to arrest him by tasering instead of shooting. Obviously it's not the same exact cops involved, so you can't make a direct comparison of the situations, but it still makes a pretty sharp contrast with the guy who was shot for having a screwdriver and not dropping it fast enough, or the one last week who was shot for being naked in public. Clearly it is possible to use non-violent means to subdue even extremely violent people if the police are actually willing to try.

It is also not the same as there was no indication that he was armed at the time of capture. The shooting was at 8;30AM, the capture was 1PM. That's a long time to become unarmed.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 02:33

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

blunt for century posted:

I think it's fair to assume that a spree shooter is probably very armed

If they tased him, it is quite unlikely. If you have a gun, cops don't care if you're white or black, they're gonna make you dead. Only without guns does it really come into play.
Also, he was apparently in his own apartment at the time, maybe he put it down to take a poo poo, I don't know.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 02:39

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

gently caress the . . . . fire department?

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/02/...26pLid%3D612944

Shame on the two firefighters, shame on the DA who filed these charges despite the physical evidence showing it not being arson, and shame on the DA again for not charging them. It should come as no shock they're both still employed bye the fire department.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 06:06

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Plenty of young healthy people have heart attacks due to undiscovered heart defects and the like.

On topic
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/long...-ford/25049063/
"I apologize to the court in not having been more diligent in my duty to ensure that proper disclosures of any exculpatory evidence had been provided to the defense."

drat

# ¿ Mar 20, 2015 22:40

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Oh my god. Can we all agree that while policing may not be as dangerious as some say, it is probably more dangerious than the average desk job?
I also hate to say it, because some of these tactics are fairly new, saying "policing isn't that dangerious" could walk into "yes, it isn't that dangerious now because police walk around like everyone is trying to kill them."

This whole thing isn't a productive discussion anyhow. The question is how do we get cops to kill fewer people, not "is being a cop dangerious or not." It has just become a dick waving contest.

Spun Dog posted:

I think it's telling that to a certain subset of posters in this thread, there is no such thing as legitimate criticism towards law enforcement.

who?
Those peolle tend to hide in the GiP thread.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2015 23:47

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Armyman25 posted:

Here's a 3 minute video of what happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21WqaDzztGk

When the first cop had her face down on the ground he should have just stayed on top of her till help arrived. She wasn't going to be able to get up.

He should have, certainly. However, if she did have a large knife (which I can't see, but I guess the video is poor), this isn't the shooting to get worked out about. Charging with a knife is clearly deadly force and use of it in defense is proper. Again, shouldn't have gotten to that point, but not as bad as the man with the screwdriver.

I feel like that one is only making the rounds because she is a white girl.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 17:43

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Hollismason posted:

Yeah that guy looks like he has experiencing pinning women to the ground, seriously these people don't have Tasers? Why was she not tasered or maced?

At which point?
When she was on the ground, that was excessive force.

If she is running at someone with a butcher knife as claimed? That has escalated beyond that point.

This shooting is clearly the officers fault, but legally it is justifiable and would be for anyone, not just a cop. That video is an aquittal for anyone.

Morally? That is harder.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 18:22

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

VitalSigns posted:

Oh joy, an argument about an argument that happened in another subforum, how riveting.

I'd rather argue about whether being a cop ia dangerious.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2015 20:31

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

My "favorite" part of excessive force cases is when the officer keeps tasing and tasing a person because they won't comply. I'm not sure they understand how the nervous system works and how a big jolt of electricity can prevent someone from doing what you're yelling as you tase him.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 01:22

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

blunt for century posted:

Are there any big differences between this shooting and the one where the cop shot a facedown guy in the back at the BART station several years ago? Other than the fact that this time, the guy they shot was white, of course. That guy just got Involuntary Manslaughter

In this case, there is no accident claim. If this was CA, short of an NG, the lightest she could probably get in vol man. An NG is possible though because she's a cop, as Kelly Thomas taught us.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 03:43

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

blunt for century posted:

Jesus. Christ.

I mean, goddamn

goddamn

e. also, quoted in order to make these links easier to find in the future

Also, you shouldn't think that is unique to SFPD.
SF just has a stronger Public Defender's office, IA, and the political will to do it.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2015 06:01

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Vahakyla posted:

On lighter news, there is this Lithuanian Police TV series showing a drunk or off-meds American girl threatening Lithunian cops with World War 3. It's loving hilarious.

"Even though the girl asked help from the United Nations, she was escorted to the hospital by regular police officers."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53gAFuE0FwQ

Subtitled.

That probably deserved a light shooting.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 06:07

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Von Sloneker posted:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/08/exclusive-michael-slager-s-attorney-dumped-him-as-soon-as-he-saw-video.html

Brief interview with Slager's ex-lawyer, who went lol see ya as soon as a reporter emailed him the video.

Don't lie to your lawyers people.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 20:26

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Vahakyla posted:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/04/10/cottonwood-walmart-brawl-video/25598875/

And the amazing complete video of it: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=846207218749517

Can't really tell if this is white trash or police brutality.

These guys (the not cops) are some of the dumbest people I have ever seen, I almost wonder if there's some mental health/development disability going on (which would make it sadder). I don't know what the gently caress they were thinking (I guess it was white privilege gone wrong). Sounds like someone in the group battered a walmart employee because they didn't want a female employee going into the same restroom as their mom? I have no doubt that these crazy fuckers could have grabbed the cop's gun.

The police could have used better crowd control, but misdemeanor cites rarely go this crazy.

It would be funny if no one what been shot.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2015 08:41

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

lmaoboy1998 posted:

On the 'give them all the death penalty' thing that came a little earlier in the thread:

One of my friends is a UK policeman and he's a racist. He talks constantly about how Somalis cause all of his problems at work. He also seems to be becoming slightly unhinged. Last time we met there was a concerning moment where he went completely wild-eyed and announced �one day I'm just going to say gently caress it, ignore all the rules they put on me and do whatever I want�. I definitely wouldn't want to put a gun into his hands at work.

I've also learned from talking to him that his job actually is one of the shittest jobs in the world - and that's here, in the UK, where things are bad but infinitely better than many cities in the US. He's been assaulted multiple times. He told me recently �don't ever get into a career. I hate mine so much but I've invested too much time in it and I can't get out�. A lot of police, even the racist, borderline unhinged ones, aren't actually power tripping hard nuts. They're people who genuinely hate their lovely lives to the point of distraction. They signed up for it, sure, but it's hard to sign off when you've learnt almost no skills in the process.

A lot of policemen are deeply flawed, profoundly stupid individuals. But if you take profoundly stupid, flawed human beings, and put them in a series of extremely high stress situations, which due to socioeconomic stuff they obviously don't understand often happen to involve black men, it's not actually surprising that they end up becoming unhinged racists. That's what was always going to happen. They didn't choose to be stupid people who jump to conclusions, but we did choose as a society to employ them as police and put them in violent, racially charged situations without any real education on how those came about. The result is obvious. Human evil has nothing to do with it, and talk of the death penalty is retarded and barbaric, as it always is.

He should quit before he does something horrible. You can kill someone without a gun.
Some people, hell, most people shouldn't be cops. Most cops shouldn't be cops. I know some "good" cops (who have called out lying cops), and they don't hate their jobs like that.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2015 08:51

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

lmaoboy1998 posted:

Unfortunately it's an unsolvable problem as the work is low paid and always will be, meaning the best and brightest aren't going to flock to be cops. He'll quit and some other slightly thuggish young man will replace him and get equally angry at having to spend his New Years Eve disarming mentally ill Somalis. The circle of life.

This may be true in the UK, but i hear this repeated everywhere. Here (California) cops are extremely well paid. It starts in the 40-60s before OT and a patrol officer with a few years can be making low six figures pretty quickly. Average in CA is $97,000/yr. CHP is even better paid (start at $76k before OT), but they basically require a college degree.
Oh and they get like 3% at 50 pensions (which means if you start at 20, you can retire at 50 with 90% of salary)

# ¿ Apr 11, 2015 09:53

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Sounds like their police unions should focus less on protecting bad cops and more on pay.
While it should be noted that base pay is basically useless for calculating what cops make because of OT (note that a lot of OT in a good contract doesn't really require much work beyond 40hrs), but the idea of a cop making $11.18 is terrifying. That's the guy who couldn't get a job at loving costco.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2015 10:29

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

My Rhythmic Crotch posted:

Two people shot and killed, 2 year old child hit by car and killed as well. This just popped, very few details available.

Not sure how this relates? The cops didn't kill them.

# ¿ Apr 13, 2015 05:30

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

It is worth noting that New London doesn't represent all or even maybe most departments. More desirable departments (a factor of pay, location, staffing levels, etc) won't filter out too smart officers because they're not so afraid of them leaving.

There are a fair number of people who get iobs with smaller, less desirable departments with the hope they will get hired by a better one.

# ¿ Apr 13, 2015 19:01

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Series DD Funding posted:

The other story said he shot in the air.

Assault by firearm doesn't require you to shoot the gun at all, much less at someone.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2015 07:11

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

“There aren’t any secrets in law enforcement. Zero. Those types of issues would have come up.”

Had to double check that this wasn't the onion.

Dude hosed up. He should have said he saw furtive movements at the waistband. He'd have walked. An accident is manslaughter.

# ¿ Apr 16, 2015 20:39

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

probably not in Illinois: firing into a crowd to intentionally hit someone isn't reckless w/r/t the other people

Not in any state. If you have the intent, if you kill the wrong person, it is murder.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 15:52

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

ActusRhesus posted:

It can still be reckless wrt the people you didn't kill.

I mean it can, but if you have the intent to shoot dude A and miss and shoot dude B, you ain't getting a manslaughter charge alone if he dies.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 16:24

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

ActusRhesus posted:

At least here anyway. We just limit you can't have multiple mental states for same act on same victim.

Your state is weird.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 17:16

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

ActusRhesus posted:

I think people are failing to account for the fact that many top notch prosecutors don't end up in poo poo holes like ferguson. Or Missouri. I'm much more willing to believe someone is justly a lovely lawyer. And hell, even good lawyers can gently caress up charging decisions. Happens quite a bit.

When it comes to Ferguson, I absolutely believe malice by the prosecution played in. The prosecutor has all but admitted his biases and his lack of arguement at the grand jury was so weird as to not be incompetence. He's done it before.

I agree; however, that this Chicago case was probably not malice. It wouldn't have gone to jury trial.

That said, you should be reluctant to base your experences in the North East to all prosecutors. You're shocked by what happens in Commiefornia, the South is even worse. Chicago also has its own issues I guess.

Edit: During both the BART and Kelly Thomas trials, a large number of DAs I spoke with were praying for a walk. If one of the who was less ethical got a police killing, I could see a select few throwing that case. Probably at prelim though, not trial.

nm fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Apr 21, 2015

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 18:19

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

That isn't uncommon for people on bail, fyi.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 23:00

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

PostNouveau posted:

Wouldn't want a silly little thing like a manslaughter charges ruining a vacation.

Do the Bahamas extradite to the U.S.?

You understand you don't have to ask permission to skip bail, right?

# ¿ Apr 22, 2015 03:15

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

DARPA posted:

Is turning over your passport not standard?

No. Real life is not like movies. Only happens if they see a flight risk.

Also, jesus, not even lawyers are safe in the courthouse:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/swarm-philly-cops-beat-public-defender-client-courtroom/

# ¿ Apr 22, 2015 05:47

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

hobbesmaster posted:

Or you'll get the Japanese 99.97% or whatever conviction rate by a combination of ends justify the means and "well, this isn't a 100% sure thing so I'll drop it because an acquittal means I will have to kill myself"

Torture and high pressure psychological tools to get confessions, real or false, are used even more in Japan. That's not a good goal.

# ¿ Apr 22, 2015 18:46

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

TURN IT OFF! posted:

No a civilian going the normal speed probably wouldn't.
He was going 15mph over speed limit.

It is a 6 lane, divided road. I promise you no one except old people are going 50 there. Especially in florida.

Also, in california, he'd be charged with vehicular manslaughter, which sounds like a big loving deal, but is a misdemeanor and carries the same points as reckless driving (we don't have careless).
Also, everyone eventually goes to trial and walks or gets infraction offers because nothing gets a jury's "there but by the grace of god I go" going than a traffic accident that was clearly an accident and didn't involve drugs or alcohol. And quite frankly, I kind of agree, driving is dangerious, poo poo happens, and that is why we have a civil law system for suing the poo poo out of people.

As for cop prosecutions. Remember the distinct advantages the cop has over the average person. They have the I'm a cop thing, which juries love almost as much as "I'm a firefighter" (go try to convict a firefighter on a he said she said, I dare ya). They have no criminal record to impeach them with -- almost all my clients have records and that felony conviction coming out my cause my client to not testify. My client has never testified before and is scared shitless, which can be perceived as lying. Cops are trained to testify and have experence. Cops have character witnesses with clean records who look like the jurors. Mine don't.
This is why comparing the records between cop prosecutions and normal people prosecutions don't work.
I can tell you having watched both parts of both the BART shooting trials and the Kelly Thomas trials that the prosecution wanted murder convictions in both, tried hard, didn't really gently caress up and both did not get what they wanted. The elected Orange County DA actually spent a huge amount of political capital to prosecute then himself and still lost.

nm fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Apr 23, 2015

# ¿ Apr 23, 2015 17:40

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

TURN IT OFF! posted:

Yes the "but everyone else is doing it too" legal defense. It works so well for five-year-olds.

See 85th percentile speeds. It actually creates a defense in California to speeding. It creates a defense to negligence too, which is likely an element of careless in FL and certainly is in CA to reckless.
I'll bet that that road didn't have a valid speed survey on it.
This is more for the traffic engineering thread, but most speed limits have no basis in traffic engineering. Because of that simply exceeding them really doesn't tell you much for a criminal case.

TURN IT OFF! posted:

America: Where killing someone is a misdemeanor - as it should be!
Getting hit (as a pedestrian) at 50 mph has a 1 in 4 chance of survival. At just 10 over that the chance of survival is zero. I don't have bike to car survival rates on hand but those figures are at least comparable.

Unless you're saying there should be an extra charge for ordering ice cream sundaes while being a cop.

Yes, because our overcrowded prisons need more people in them for committing simple negligence that through a series of bad luck killed someone.

nm fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 23, 2015

# ¿ Apr 23, 2015 18:32

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 13:40

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

GreyPowerVan posted:

A man died because a police officer struck him from behind travelling at 15 above the speed limit, more on how this means no one can have a valid opinion besides "IT WERENT HIS FAULT" at 11.

No one is saying it isn't his fault, not even the prosecutor. What we're saying is that this has jackshit to do with police reform.

Also, god forbid someone brings what the law is into things instead of knee jerk "hang the cop!" bullshit.

# ¿ Apr 23, 2015 18:37

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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