Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Dr Pepper posted:

Why on earth does it seem like the default course of action for a cop is "Draw gun, scream at person"

Because they have "Everyone is a threat and the second you drop your guard you're dead" pounded into their heads during training and then reinforced on the job by selective memory and a hyper-agressive police culture.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2015 20:24

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 13:38

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Ytlaya posted:

At the end, I'm left just feeling sort of empty about the whole thing. Even if the defendant was the shooter (which he probably was), the victim had specifically said that he didn't want to ruin his life or anything, or even prosecute in the first place. So given that prison isn't really rehabilitative, what is him being convicted of this crime going to accomplish? I guess it might prevent him from committing some other crime, but I have a strong feeling from watching the video that the defendant (if he was the shooter) was drunk or under the influence of something when he shot the victim.

I'm interested in why you feel this way. Do you feel like being intoxicated diminishes his responsibility for his actions? Should society at large (via the State) not seek punishment if the victim is uninterested in cooperating with police? Is there something to be said for removing the notably shooty members of our society, if just temporarily, to someplace where they can't get drunk and pop off a few rounds in a convenience store?

# ¿ Mar 2, 2015 23:29

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Harik posted:

I know the residents of DC are majority black, but departments in minority-majority districts seem to love recruiting from the suburbs instead.

Remember that small agencies often have trouble retaining good officers, and especially good minority officers. Minority, female, and bi-lingual officers are in high demand with large city agencies that can offer better compensation and career opportunities than a small police department.

The balkanization of American policing results in a tendency for the best candidates to migrate towards the best funded agencies and it leaves small and underfunded police forces with fewer options.

Edit: Especially when you consider that the systematic racism in the justice system bars a disproportionately high number of minorities from law enforcement careers.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 19:45

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

semper wifi posted:

You can't expect the cops to risk trying to taser the guy when he's that close.

The maximum effective range of a Taser is only about 20' to start with so I guess anyone in Taser range is too dangerous to Taser.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 23:50

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

blunt for century posted:

I mean, I understand tasers malfunction sometimes, or doesn't get a solid hit, but it's still better for them to have shot him repeatedly. Also, they could have maced the poo poo out of him and backed away. Mace doesn't malfunction much at all, and it's easy as poo poo to aim. A guy with a screwdriver won't be much harm if he can't see and the officers are out of stabbing distance anyway

OC/Mace sucks but it isn't really debilitating in most cases. Remember that cops get sprayed as part of their training and then usually have to shoot a couple targets with a shotgun and pistol then wrestle and handcuff a guy. If you're ready for it, or just pissed enough, you can power right on through chemical spray.

Also it gets everywhere.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:11

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

"If you're ready for it," which by definition victims of police violence are not.

How do you figure? It isn't like the cops are that sneaky. I mean, they have big flashing lights on their cars and a tendency to yell things like "I'm going to pepper spray you!"

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:15

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

Gee, let's consider the differences between a training where the instructor is like "OK you're going to be sprayed, then do this and this" like it was Double Dare to just spraying a person who is not at a training.

Being at the county range does not give you a 2+ to pepper spray resistance.

My point was that pepper spray is basically just a chemical irritant. It won't stop anyone who is set on the idea of being combative. It's primary purpose is to take the fight out of assholes and drunks so the police don't have to club them. Sadly, like Tasers, it seems to get used primarily as a pain-compliance tool.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:33

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

Attending a class where the effects are explained to you, in the context of others being sprayed and recovering, likely does.

Nope, still hurts. Taser hurts too, but not as much.

Zeitgueist posted:

Having been peppersprayed, the best you're gonna do is flail your arms around ineffectually.

Sounds like you had a significantly worse reaction than most people.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:41

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

What are you saying "nope" for? Did you contradict me? I don't think you did because I never said it didn't hurt, only that police in training would be more likely to be capable of deliberate actions after being sprayed than somebody off the street.

In no way do any of the chemicals in pepper spray render you incapable of "deliberate action." That's my point. It hurts like poo poo, but if you don't care because you're nuts, or wasted, or just hard as nails well then it doesn't do much good. It's effectiveness is mostly in people not wanting to feel like their face is on fire and generally reacting to that feeling with panic.

I don't think having it explained to you in a classroom for a half hour before you get sprayed makes much of a difference, but if you're willing to offer some kind of proof that it does I'm willing to concede the point.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:48

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Zeitgueist posted:

I have a friend who's an MP, and just recently got tased and hit with OC spray, and he described spray as way worse.

The spray is definitely way more painful. Taser only hurts for a few seconds really, but I don't know how anyone could walk that thing off. I totally thought I was gonna hard man it but it's like getting hit by Mike Tyson. One second you're standing up, then you're not. Edit: I didn't get hit with the prongs and I don't ever want to. Those things look nasty.

Bob James posted:

Was it a Phillips head?

If it was a Torx driver then I changed my mind and it was a good shoot.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Mar 19, 2015

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 00:53

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Zeitgueist posted:

Yeah, he said the complete loss of body control was more disconcerting, but way less painful.

My argument is that "holy poo poo pepperspray" is not me having an overly harsh reaction, it's more than enough to take out anyone less beefy than Halfthor, and the whole "insane guy on angel-dust hulking up" is more of a bullshit anecdote. I don't buy it.

It isn't really a beefy thing from my admittedly limited experience. Some people seem to just naturally have a fairly limited response to capsaicin. Some people also fall down and throw up a lot. For most people it seems to fall somewhere in the "very painful" range.

The whole "insane guy on angel-dust hulking up" is always bullshit. Sort of like how the dead guy is always 6" taller and 100lbs heavier according to the cop.

VikingofRock posted:

We should ban everyday cops from carrying guns, and bring in specially trained officers whenever more force is necessary (active shooter scenarios, etc).

I agree, especially for urban agencies. Rural cops should probably keep a rifle in the trunk though.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Mar 19, 2015

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 01:06

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Zeitgueist posted:

Killing people because they maybe aren't completely incapacitated by OC is not a good solution.

Agreed. Police in the US need a lot more training in deescalation. This certainly looks like a situation where no one was in danger until the officers created a dangerous situation.

SedanChair posted:

Rural policing has no bearing on this discussion.

Sorry SedanChair I must have missed it when someone made you a mod.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 01:15

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

blunt for century posted:

I wonder how many screwdrivers were within reach

Going by his tattoos there was at least one Skrewdriver album in the apartment.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Mar 19, 2015

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 02:47

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Cichlid the Loach posted:

I mean just the other week there was that story of the two white guys actually shooting up a store with BB guns or buckshot, who somehow got taken into custody peacefully.

You mean pellets? Buckshot is for-realsies bullets.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 03:17

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

But you can see it in their reaction when you casually suggest that hey, maybe no cops would be better than systematically racist cops.

Yeah, but that is a super dumb thing to suggest.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 07:18

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

Yes, that's what they say because their own racism has terrified them to the point where they are unable to consider alternatives. They just say "that's dumb" and everybody understands what's really being discussed, and who would really go uncontained.

Let's look at all the civil rights success stories like Somalia and Syria where they have abandoned the tyranny of laws and now live in a Libertarian utopia.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 07:35

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

Would you really say that the absence of a civilian police force is the most salient characteristic of those failed states?

Are you advocating for the replacement of civil police with military police?

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 07:39

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

No, would you like to answer my question now?

Ok.

SedanChair posted:

Would you really say that the absence of a civilian police force is the most salient characteristic of those failed states?

No I wouldn't, I was simply responding flippantly. I thought the part where I accused you of being a Libertarian made that clear enough, but guess not.

Would you really like to have a serious discussion over whether bad law enforcement is worse than no law enforcement? Because that is a very silly discussion.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 07:46

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

I guess the question is "worse for who?" Because there are populations who derive precisely zero benefit from policing, while experiencing significant harm.

I'd argue that the police are less dangerous to even the most marginalized populations than what history tells us happens to minorities when nobody bothers to enforce the laws against murdering minorities. I do not have so much faith in humanity that I can believe a total lack of law enforcement would result in anything but a massive increase in violence across all segments of the population.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 08:11

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Look at the most recent example of No Police Time in America. During the aftermath of Hurrican Katrina the NOPD went from being an extremely lovely law enforcement agency to making no attempt to enforce the law at all. This resulted in cops murdering black people, white vigilante gangs murdering black people, and the military having to show up to unfuck the situation. Eventually once the NOPD and Home Owners Associations were pacified by the National Guard some token prosecutions were made, and the NOPD went back to just being lovely instead of nonexistent. White American then placed the blame for all those dead black people squarely on the black community for not using the Magical Negro Hive Mind to somehow rectify a total collapse of civic order.

SedanChair posted:

See, now you want to make me go back on what I said earlier because that sounds like a job for the National Guard. If the only thing keeping you defending the existence of police is protection of minority groups, that's curious to me because they are not particularly qualified for that job. The military, on the other hand, is actually pretty good at that job when they are assigned to it.

I don't think the solution to police shooting too many people is to replace them with the Army. Worst case scenario at least the NYPD can't call for fire support.

Edit: Although I'm sure Bill Bratton is working on fixing that little oversight.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Mar 19, 2015

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 08:24

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SedanChair posted:

As to Katrina, I think that is a similar situation to the LA riots. Pointing to a time where the police decided to stop enforcing the law, and the chaos that ensued, is not a convincing defense for the continued existence of policing.

I'm confused as to whether you're arguing against the general principle of law enforcement or the current structure of American law enforcement.

Constitutional issues aside I think there's something to be said for having a hard separation between civil law enforcement personnel and military personnel. As someone with some experience with military law enforcement I think you give them far too much credit. They are exactly the same bored, power-tripping dicks that regular cops are. Just in a different uniform and paid even less.

The military legal system is also in many ways hilariously awful and should not in any way ever be applied to civilians.

Edit: This is dangerously close to becoming a dialogue.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Mar 19, 2015

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 08:42

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Zeitgueist posted:

I still don't understand what scenario you're supposed to use a taser, in practice(not theory). Almost every situation I would have used a taser ends up being used to justify a shooting, and it looks an awful lot like they are mainly used to punish people who are no real threat.

I think the reasonable place for the Taser in practice would be against someone violently resisting without a weapon or someone with a blade in a standoff situation.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 03:25

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

blunt for century posted:

Are there any big differences between this shooting and the one where the cop shot a facedown guy in the back at the BART station several years ago? Other than the fact that this time, the guy they shot was white, of course. That guy just got Involuntary Manslaughter

Different jurisdiction.

Apparently the population of Hummelstown, PA gives more of a poo poo about the police murdering people.

nm posted:

In this case, there is no accident claim. If this was CA, short of an NG, the lightest she could probably get in vol man. An NG is possible though because she's a cop, as Kelly Thomas taught us.

Killing a black guy in a black neighborhood and then getting a jury with no black people on it helps a lot too.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Mar 25, 2015

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 03:45

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Spun Dog posted:

I know. There's never money for anything that they don't want to do, is there? Body cameras, rape kits, ethics classes...no problem on the MRAP though, it's a bargain.

MRAPS are free and the reason they are free is because nobody wants them. DoD tried to sell them and even the sort of tinpots that are usually all over a deal on armored peasant-murder-machines wouldn't touch them. Police departments mostly just park them on a backlot somewhere and bring them out once a year for the county fair.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2015 22:48

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Dead Reckoning posted:

I'm sure if you got everyone to agree to a tax hike in order to hire trainers and pay officers overtime to come in on their off duty days in order to take anti-racism training or force-on-force classes, there would be no problem, but for some reason that proposition is unpopular.

And since America doesn't have a national police force you'd have to convinced about 15,000 individual localities separately.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2015 23:35

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Arnold of Soissons posted:

America has many agencies full of LEOs who operate at a national level, like the marshal service, secret service, FBI, etc

Who all have jurisdiction limited to specific federal crimes and are not in any way a national police force.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2015 00:47

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Devor posted:

It's a shame that judge and jury will probably consider his being a police officer a mitigating factor away from the death penalty, rather than an aggravating factor.

This case will never see a jury.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2015 23:56

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

ChairMaster posted:

If you're lucky he'll get fired, but even that much isn't likely.

He's been arrested and charged with murder. Unless he has Johnny Cochrane's Ghost as a union rep he is deffo fired.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 01:25

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Darth Walrus posted:

Slager's already been fired. They actually seem to be taking this one somewhat seriously.

South Carolina is surprisingly on the ball when it comes to bringing the hammer down on cops who light up black people for no reason.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 01:37

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

ToxicSlurpee posted:

You say that like the right wing will change at all. It's like when wrestling realized that everybody knew it was fake. We all knew the truth all along and once they realized nobody cared poo poo got continually more insane. Countdown to righties demanding that police just randomly gun down blacks to "keep them in line" starting....now.

People have really interesting ways of rationalizing misbehavior by their team once being part of the team becomes part of their internal identity. Psychology is awesome and terrible.

Branis posted:

whatever he dropped was too big to be the cartidge. It looked like it could have been an x26 taser with the extended grip for an extra cartridge

Yeah whatever that was certainly appears too large to be a spent Taser cartridge. I can't actually identify it from the video but if they found the cop's Taser in roughly that location I'd say that's a strong indication that it was in fact the Taser he dropped.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 15:23

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

cr0y posted:

I predict them going to the "one bad apple" argument and how the rapid response of a murder charge proves the system works perfectly and calls for reform are unwarranted something something.

To be fair the system in South Carolina appears to be working pretty well.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 19:17

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Lemming posted:

*If there's clear as day video of a cop shooting a guy in the back

How well does it work when there isn't video? I'm guessing not great.

Did you miss the above post about SLED going hog wild on a bunch of corrupt CLEOs in the last year or so? Plus that Trooper who shot the black guy after asking him for his license a few months ago. I know "gently caress the system!" and all but remember to give credit where credit is due. If this happened in NYC the cop would be on vacation instead of in jail.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 19:26

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Zeitgueist posted:

Literal video of a cold blooded murder and planting evidence from a bystander is not really the system.

I was speaking in a general sense, which I thought was clear.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 19:52

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Zeitgueist posted:

Yes, but I think I'm kinda sad that actually pursuing obvious crimes is something we need to cheer.

The system policing itself is always worth a little acknowledgement in my opinion. Especially noteworthy when it's a hard red state with a nasty history of racial discrimination doing a better job than anywhere else that I'm aware of.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 19:56

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

mintskoal posted:

I don't know why I even bothered to check Officer.com

This man is a sworn, active police officer.

It's kind of amazing that officer.com isn't entirely a honeypot for state investigative agencies at this point.

Also their vetting procedure for members is a joke.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 20:08

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Zeitgueist posted:

Yeah people have said that several times before and it is usually mocked in policethreads.

I remember in one of Tokeii's (sp?) old threads him saying stuff like that was pretty much SOP when he was a cop. Although IIRC that was Chicago in the 60's.

# ¿ Apr 8, 2015 23:53

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Not all police departments partner officers up. That's an old TV trope more than a real thing. Maybe it was truer in the past.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 02:30

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Radbot posted:

Let's be honest - this would be a huge deal to them if the guy killed was a white Tea Partier. It's racism at its heart.

A York County, South Carolina deputy shot an unarmed 70 year-old disabled white war veteran on video two months ago. Nobody cared because the victim lived, and also white people getting shot by cops isn't much of a story. I'm unaware of both the old white dude's political affiliation and how Stormfront may or may not have commented on YouTube about the incident.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 19:45

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Radbot posted:

I think the whole dying vs. living aspect is important, personally. Not sure what that other poo poo about Stromfront is about, guessing some lame attempt at a snipe.

I just assume everyone in every comments section is cross-posting from Stormfront.

Edit: Or possibly from NaturalNews, depending on topic.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 19:49

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 13:38

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

UFOTofuTacoCat posted:

Second officer in Walter Scott video sued over alleged attack on handcuffed man

Turns out there's more than one bad apple. Color me shocked.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 22:03

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