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Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 111: Failure, Pt 1

Voldemort says he's going to fulfil his promise to revive Hermione and leads Harry to a secret passage that turns out to be some kind of massive maze, which gives Harry plenty of time to try to think of ways to stop him. But he doesn't think of anything useful and the passage leads to a graveyard. Text in italics is spoken in parseltongue and therefore supposedly must be true.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

There was a rumbling sound, and smoothly from the ground rose an altar, at least two meters wide and of black stone carved with grey sigils. And then surrounding the altar groaned up six dark-marble obelisks, regularly spaced, gleaming darkly beneath the fading twilight sky.

The unanswerable alarm in Harry's brain grew louder.

"This," said the Dark Lord in Professor Quirrell's cadences, "is a workspace I made for myself, convenient to either Hogwarts or Hogsmeade." The Dark Lord flourished a hand at the altar. "That is where Miss Granger shall revive, and also where I shall be reborn into my true body. I shall remake myself first, of course. Magics to revive girl-child easier with true body." A strange snakish laughter accompanied these words. "Rest assured that though some aspects of girl-child's resurrection shall be what others consider Dark, girl-child will not be harmed or made ugly by it. Shall still look like herself, mind shall be her own, nor shall I or mine harm her after."

Harry's tongue was dry and his mind was having trouble functioning. "Please, Professor, would you say in Parseltongue what is your real purpose in resurrecting Miss Granger?"

"To restore to you girl-child friend's counsel and restraint. To make sure she is part of the world for you to care about. That, boy, is truly the greater part of the reason I am doing this deed." Again snakish laughter accompanied these words, conveying sardonic awareness of some vast irony.
Then Voldemort uses the Philosopher's Stone to restore his own body, which leaves Quirrell alive and free - but Voldemort quickly stuns him. Then he tries to revive Hermione but it doesn't work.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

"Girl's body is restored. Substance is repaired. But not magic, or life... this is body of dead Muggle." Voldemort turned from the altar, began to pace. "The full ritual would solve this. But that would require time... time and the blood of Granger's enemy, and I do not think Draco Malfoy still qualifies, nor can I take my own blood unwillingly... foolish." Voldemort's voice was a lower hiss. "Foolish, I should have foreseen this, and prepared. Her brain might awaken with an electrical shock, I know that much of Muggle medicine... but would her magic return to her? That I do not know, and I suspect if she awakens as a Muggle she will be a Muggle forever. Still, I can think of nothing better." The Dark Lord raised his wand -
Then Harry has an idea and asks for his wand back to try it, saying (in Parseltongue) that he has no intention of using his wand on Voldemort (which apparently he can say because he has no specific intention to use it on Voldemort at this time, even though he knows he might change his mind later). Voldemort believes him and gives his wand back. Of course Harry's plan is to summon a patronus, because in this story they can destroy death, and of course it works. Voldemort then summons a mountain troll and a unicorn and sacrifices them to make Hermione practically immortal. Then I think he tries to make a super-horcrux for her so she'll actually be really, properly immortal, but something goes wrong? I'm just going to paste the end of the chapter here because I don't understand what's happening.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

"And now, my dear boy," Voldemort's high voice was laced with grim amusement, as his wand briefly tapped Hermione Granger's forehead with a casual gesture, "I make this diary into a far more precious gift, a sign of how much wisdom I have learned from you. For I would never want you to be deprived of Hermione Granger's counsel and restraint, not ever while the stars yet live. Avadakedavra."

The green bolt of the Killing Curse blazed out faster than Harry could possibly have cast the Patronus Charm, faster than he could possibly have moved, it was already over even as Harry cried out and went for his wand.

Quirinus Quirrell's unconscious body did not even jerk, in death. The green light struck into it without other sign.

Darkness glowed in the air, anti-light in the trails that Voldemort had made before, and the Diary of Roger Bacon darkened as though corruption were creeping over it, even as a shiver appeared in the air around Hermione Granger's form.

The pain in Harry's scar flared overwhelmingly, like a brand driven into his forehead, it sent Harry dodging unthinkingly to one side as Tom Riddle's reflexes took over.

And Voldemort was also screaming, shrieking as he dropped the diary to the ground, holding his own head and screaming.

Chance -

The last voice of hope said that, as Harry tried frantically to think, to understand. There wasn't any point in trying to kill Voldemort now, it might only annoy him, weapons couldn't kill him while any of his hundreds of horcruxes remained -

But it still seemed worth it to temporarily discarnate Voldemort, take the Stone and Hermione and run.

Harry's right hand had already taken his wand. His left hand went around to his back, reached awkwardly into his pouch, began to make a silent sign, three English letters.

"No!" cried Voldemort. He'd dropped his hands from his head, was staring at Hermione's body as though bewildered. "No, no!"

The item came up from Harry's pouch into his hand, and Harry began to step forward as smoothly as he could, diminishing the range between them to what his brief trials had shown was doable.

"My great creation -" gasped Voldemort. His voice was high, sounding panicked. "Two different spirits cannot exist in the same world - it is gone, it is severed! A horcrux, I must make a horcrux at once -" Voldemort's gaze fell on Hermione Granger's still-sleeping form, and he began to raise his wand in the air, executing the same gestures as before.

Harry raised his gun and pulled the trigger three times.
So I think that trying to make a horcrux for Hermione somehow destroyed all of his own horcruxes? That seems awfully convenient. And anticlimactic. But we've got 11 chapters to go so I guess it's not going to be that simple.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention, Hermione was naked for, like, half this chapter - until Harry specifically asked Voldemort to put some clothes on her. And she was either dead or unconscious for the entire chapter.

Tiggum fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Mar 8, 2019

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Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Cuazl posted:

Oh, it's way dumber than that. Just you wait.
Let's see how dumb, shall we?


Chapter 112: Failure, Pt 2

So Voldemort blocked the bullets Harry fired at him with a wall of dirt. He managed to cast a spell that caused a wall of earth to rise up between them in less time than it took for the first bullet to travel the distance between them. I guess magic, so he could be that fast, but it still seems like he's just winning because the author needs him to not die yet. Like, this wasn't him outwitting Harry or beating him in some contest of strength or will, it was basically just "oh, he's bulletproof now."

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

An instant after that, pain flared in Harry's scar, a crawling feeling came close to his skin; and then Harry's pouch, clothes, gun, everything except his wand disappeared, leaving him naked but for the wand still in his right hand, and the glasses he'd Charmed to stick to his nose.
Crawling in my skin
These wounds, they will not heal
Fear is how I fall
Confusing what is real


And apparently Voldemort's horcruxes aren't destroyed? Or at least he says they aren't. Well, implies they aren't. It was just a trick to get Harry to attack him because of a previously unmentioned curse that Voldemort put on himself so that no version of him could ever try to kill any other version of him. But the curse wasn't working properly, because it should have stopped Harry from killing Voldemort but was only stopping Voldemort from killing Harry. But now Harry's inadvertently broken it so Voldemort can kill him. Which might be significant if it we'd found out about this curse at any time before it was broken. We thought Voldemort could kill him at any time and we still think that. That's like the opposite of a twist.

But Voldemort isn't going to kill Harry, he just wanted to have the option available to him. And he has cast the super-horcrux spell for Hermione so now she's, like, super-immortal. Not quite as immortal as Voldemort, but as long as someone's around to resurrect her she can always come back. This is all apparently confirmed by Voldemort speaking in Parseltongue. We still only have his word for it that he can't lie in Parseltongue, but Yudkowsky seems to be writing it as though that's a confirmed fact.

Then Voldemort summons a bunch of death eaters and Yudkowsky doesn't know what "insofar" means.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

Harry continued pointing his wand downward, insofar as he had been told that, if he tried to raise it, he would die. He remained silent, insofar as he had been told that if he tried to speak, he would die. He tried not to shiver in the falling night temperatures, for he was naked, and it was getting colder.
What is it with the naked children in this story?

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Pawg From Produce posted:

Harry tries saying two plus two is three in Parseltongue immediately after learning about the lying thing and it comes out as "two plus two is four".

Yeah, we know that Harry wasn't able to lie in Parseltongue. I personally would not trust that Voldemort hadn't come up with a way of getting around that. Harry just instantly makes the leap from "I can't do it" to "no one can do it" and never questions it.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Cardiovorax posted:

"Making an untrue statement" and "being deceptive" aren't the same thing and it's really a staple of fantasy that a binding oath of truthfulness doesn't necessarily make you honest, so expect something to that effect sooner or later.

Harry already found that loophole when he said he had "no intentions to use [his wand] against [Voldemort]" but meant "no specific intentions right now - but I definitely will use it against you later if I think of something that might work". Which is even more of a lie than is generally allowed by the "no untrue statements" rule, in my opinion. So the fact that he just keeps accepting everything Voldemort says in Parseltongue as fact is really dumb.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Pvt.Scott posted:

So, if you don’t know the truth about something, can you say obviously wrong bullshit about it in parseltongue and have it autocorrect to the right statement?

I don't think it works that way. You just can only say things you believe to be true. So, say, if you don't know what time it is you can't say "it's 3pm" because you don't believe that it is - you just don't know that it isn't.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Mikl posted:

it could set a dangerous precedent, in that if they let it through once they might lose control of the IP altogether.
That is not how copyright works. The rights holder can basically allow or disallow whatever copies and derivative works they want under whatever terms they want, and they can change their mind at any time.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Cardiovorax posted:

You're thinking of how trademark can work like that in some cases if the plagiarist decides to make a legal case that the trademark's identity has been neglected for so long that it cannot be said to be exclusive to one particular product made by one particular manufacturer anymore. And even then, that's only that how works for the way "Kleenex" became a generic through sheer cultural momentum.
Yeah, there's a lot of confusion between the concepts of copyright and trademark. Copyright is automatic and ludicrously flexible. It basically allows the rights-holder to tell people to gently caress off whenever they want. Trademark is very specific.

Trademark is about protecting your identity. You have to register a specific thing as being identifying of you (as a person or corporation) and you have to both maintain that thing's uniqueness and specify a domain. If someone is using your trademark in the specified domain (meaning that consumers could be confused as to which company or person was supplying the product or service) then you can use your trademark to get them to stop. If they're using it in a way that couldn't cause confusion then you're out of luck. Like, you might have heard of companies trademarking particular colours; that only applies if those colours are used for the kind of product that the original company sells. "Barbie pink" is trademarked, but you can use it without fear of reprisal as long as you're not selling dolls or toys or games or anything that Mattel also sells under that brand. And if you own a trademark but let others get away with using it then you may lose it based on the fact that it no longer uniquely identifies you , your business, or your product. Like if Mattel let other companies package their dolls in Barbie Pink then they'd likely lose the trademark because it would no longer be uniquely associated with their company.

Copyright is about... well, technically it's supposed to be unique expressions of ideas, but it's actually pretty vague. It always comes down to a judgement call. Is this work derivative or merely inspired by another? And if it is derivative, is it parody or criticism? But it never matters whether or not it's unique. You can allow a thousand people to write fanfiction and then sue the 1,001st because it's not about identity, it's about ownership. You can allow any number of people to use your property without ceding your ownership of it, and since you still own it you can still say that this particular person is not allowed to use it.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Mikl posted:

Oh, I think I get it. It's how Disney / Marvel can copyright their depiction of Thor and Mjolnir, but they can't trademark them because Thor and Mjolnir as concepts predate those depictions; thus, anyone can use Thor and Mjolnir, as long as they don't use the specific Marvel versions of them. Did I get it right?

Not really. Thor and Mjolnir, the Norse god and his hammer, are public domain because they predate copyright. Anyone can use them and adapt them in any way they like. Thor, the super hero, is a distinct character created and owned by Marvel. If you wrote a story that used the character of Thor, the legality of that would depend on whether it was based on the god or the super hero.

They can't trademark the character of Thor because trademark doesn't apply to characters. A trademark is a word, phrase, or symbol. They could trademark the name "Thor" on the basis that comics with "Thor" in the title would be assumed to be published by Marvel, meaning that if other used it then they could be passing themselves off as published or endorsed by Marvel - except that other companies have also published comics about Thor so they might not be able to make that argument.

But the difference between trademark and copyright is about the type of things they apply to. Copyright applies to the expression of ideas, trademark applies to identifying marks.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Cardiovorax posted:

In practical terms, however, since they sell merchandise of these characters, they can trademark the combination of name and appearance. This is why and how selling bootleg merchandise can be illegal.

Pretty sure that's copyright. The design of the character is a creative work, just like a painting or sculpture.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Cardiovorax posted:

According to sites like this one, it falls under trademark law if the product takes a particular shape related to an IP, but is in and of itself not part of the intellectual property. Merchandising is treated as a type of advertising for that purpose, as far as I can tell. A Thor doll is a special, trademarked type of doll the same way a Coca Cola bottle is a special, trademarked type of glass bottle.

The whole thing is very vague and complicated. In any case, it always ends up coming down to the fact that the people with all the money can do whatever they like and the rest of us are subject to their whims.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 113: Final Exam

So Voldemort just summoned the death eaters and they're all standing around awkwardly while he lectures them about how disappointed he is in them. He tortures a couple of them to show how evil and mean he is. One of the death eaters attacks him and so he kills him in retaliation. Then Voldemort makes Harry swear an Unbreakable Vow.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

Voldemort laughed, a strange bitter laugh. When he spoke on his high voice was precise. "Here is the oath's intent, Mr. Grim, Mr. White, Harry Potter. Listen well and comprehend the Vow that must be sworn, for its intent is also binding, and you three must share an understanding of its meaning. You will swear, Harry Potter, not to destroy the world, to take no risks when it comes to not destroying the world. This Vow may not force you into any positive action, on account of that, this Vow does not force your hand to any stupidity. Do you understand that, Mr. Grim, Mr. White? We are dealing with a prophecy of destruction. A prophecy! They can fulfill themselves in twisted ways. We must be cautious that this Vow itself does not bring that prophecy about. We dare not let this Vow force Harry Potter to stand idly after some disaster is already set in motion by his hand, because he must take some lesser risk if he tries to stop it. Nor must the Vow force him to choose a risk of truly vast destruction, over a certainty of lesser destruction. But all Harry Potter's foolishness," Voldemort's voice climbed, "all his recklessness, all his grandiose schemes and good intentions - he shall not risk them leading to disaster! He shall not gamble with the Earth's fate! No researches that might lead to catastrophe! No unbinding of seals, no opening of gates!" Voldemort's voice lowered again. "Unless this very Vow itself is somehow leading into the destruction of the world, in which case, Harry Potter, you must ignore it in that particular regard. You will not trust yourself alone in making such a determination, you must confide honestly and fully in your trusted friend, and see if that one agrees. Such is this Vow's meaning and intent. It forces only such acts as Harry Potter might choose himself, having learned that he is a prophesied instrument of destruction. For the capacity for choice must also exist, to be sacrificed.
Apparently this vow is so... long? Complicated? Something anyway, that one of the death eaters (Mr White, whoever that is) has to basically sacrifice basically all their magic to make it work.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

"Return to your places..." said Voldemort. "Good. All eyes on the Potter child, prepare to fire the instant he tries to flee, or raise his wand, or speak any word..." The Dark Lord floated high in the air, the black-clad figure overlooking the graveyard. Again he held a gun in his left hand, and his wand in his right. "Better. Now we shall kill the Boy-Who-Lived."

Mr. White staggered. Mr. Grim was laughing again, and so were others.

"I did not do that to be funny," Voldemort said coldly. "We are dealing with a prophecy, fools. We are snipping the threads of destiny one by one; carefully, carefully, not knowing when we may first encounter resistance. This is the order in which the next acts shall be done. First Harry Potter shall be stunned, then his limbs severed and the wounds cauterized. Mr. Friendly and Mr. Honor will examine him for any trace of unusual magics. One of you shall shoot the boy many times with my Muggle weapon, and then as many of you as can shall strike him with the Killing Curse. Only then will Mr. Grim crush his skull and brains with the mundane substance of a tombstone. I shall verify his corpse, then his corpse shall be burned with Fiendfyre, then we will exorcise the surrounding area in case he has left a ghost. I myself will guard this place until six hours have passed, for I do not fully trust the wards I have set against Time's looping; and four of you shall search the surroundings for signs of anything noteworthy. Even after that we must remain vigilant for any sign of Harry Potter's renewed presence, in case Dumbledore has left some unimagined trick in play. If you can think of any trick that I have missed in being sure that Harry Potter's threat is ended, speak now and I shall reward you handsomely... speak now, in Merlin's name!"
And then Yudkowsky basically tasked his readers with coming up with the ending to the story.

Eliezer Yudkwosky posted:

This is your final exam.

You have 60 hours.

Your solution must at least allow Harry to evade immediate death,
despite being naked, holding only his wand, facing 36 Death Eaters
plus the fully resurrected Lord Voldemort.

If a viable solution is posted before
*12:01AM Pacific Time* (8:01AM UTC) on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2015,
the story will continue to Ch. 121.

Otherwise you will get a shorter and sadder ending.
I don't know if he was admitting that he didn't know how to finish the story or if he'd claim that he had a solution in mind and was just testing his audience, but the threat of the "shorter and sadder ending" suggests that he was genuinely looking for someone to pull him out of the hole he'd dug himself into. Either way it's a weird threat.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Qwertycoatl posted:

The very start of chapter 1 alludes to the solution.

I feel very good about the fact that I don't remember that.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Oh poo poo, I kind of completely forgot about this thread. And we've somehow still got nine chapters to go.


Chapter 114: Shut Up and Do The Impossible

Harry basically stalls for time by telling Voldemort that he thinks he knows something that Voldemort wants to know, but he won't tell him. Then he threatens to cause a massive explosion - by transfiguring part of his wand into antimatter, although he doesn't tell Voldemort the method. He is speaking in parseltongue though so Voldemort knows he's not bluffing. Obviously this would kill Harry and all the death-eaters standing around (and possibly destroy the Philosopher's Stone?), but it would only temporarily delay Voldemort by forcing him to possess a new body.

But even though it can't be a bluff because of the "no lies in parseltongue" thing, it actually is. He's really making a carbon nanotube filament that he wraps around all the death eaters' necks and Voldemort's arms to kill/disarm them. So I guess transfiguring the end of the wand you're using to cast the transfiguration spell works.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

The last two threads stretched out from the dark pattern, black theads already in the form of nanotubes. They moved lightly through the air toward the Dark Lord himself, toward the sleeve just above Voldemort's left hand that held the gun, toward the sleeve above the right hand that held the yew wand, threads placed high at first to give them time to drift slowly downward through the air. The threads looped around, went over themselves, tied slippable knots. Began to tighten, coming closer to the sleeve, as Harry Transfigured them shorter -

Harry felt the tickle of Voldmort's power beginning to touch his own in the back of his mind; at the same time the Dark Lord's eyes widened, his mouth opened.

And Harry Transfigured the black threads stretching across the black pattern's center to a quarter their previous size, shrinking the circle, yanking hard on everything attached, tightening loops.
And then he casts a stun spell to take out Voldemort.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 115: Shut Up and Do The Impossible, Pt 2

Harry is trying to decide what he can do to permanently stop Voldemort since he effectively can't be killed. He considers torturing him to drive him permanently insane, and throwing his wand into the dementor pit at Azkaban (since Voldemort is permanently linked to his wand), but isn't happy with either solution.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

In the end, there was only one option he would take, and since Harry already knew that, there was no point agonizing about it. Whether it was the best option, only time would tell.

Harry breathed deeply, building up the magic inside himself. The spell he was going to cast didn't need to be precise, but it was still one of the most powerful spells he'd mastered.

...

The power he was storing up was vibrating in him, like his whole body was part of his wand, either Harry's eyes were blurring or there was a luminous white quiver running over the holly. And Harry thought the shape of the spell he would cast, he didn't have much fine control but the pattern he needed was simple, it just needed to include -

Everything, forget everything, Tom Riddle, Professor Quirrell, forget your whole life, forget your entire episodic memory, forget the disappointment and the bitterness and the wrong decisions, forget Voldemort -

And at the last moment before Harry cast the spell, he had one final thought, a note of grace -

But if you ever had any truly happy memories, not hurting people or laughing at their pain, but the warm feeling of helping someone or being helped, there won't be many, maybe just when you were a child, but if you had any truly happy memories then keep only those -

Something bright in him unfolded at the decision, knowing he'd made the right choice, and Harry pushed that too into his wand -

"OBLIVIATE!"
Then he transfigures him into the form of a ring, so he's now mindless and inanimate but not technically dead, and Harry intends to, I guess, rehabilitate him some day. Then he sets up the scene, I think to make it look like Hermione killed Voldemort in self defence? It doesn't seem plausible but everyone in this book except Harry is an idiot so they'll probably believe it. Then he flies away.

It's really convenient how Harry is able to do the exact things he needs to at this point to have everyone believe exactly what he wants them to and leave all the decisions in his hands.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 116: Aftermath, Something to Protect, Pt 0

Harry, having travelled back in time, returns to the Quidditch game.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

Harry Potter stood up, hands still on his forehead, and dropped his hands to reveal that his famous lightning-bolt scar was now blazing red and inflamed. It was bleeding, with the blood dripping down Potter's nose.

...

Professor McGonagall turned away from where she was arguing with the Hufflepuff Quidditch team. The Head of Gryffindor's eyes widened in shock, and then she was moving people out of her way, almost running. "Harry!" she said. "Your scar! "

Silence was spreading, in a widening circle.

"I think," Harry said, his voice still wavering but louder, "I think he's back. I think I'm seeing - through Voldemort's mind -"

Anna took a step back at You-Know-Who's name and nearly fell over a bleacher. An older boy standing next to her gave a cry of dismay, and then the Boy-Who-Lived shrieked even louder.

"HE'S KILLING THEM!" screamed Harry Potter.

Half the Quidditch stadium turned to look at him.

"The ritual!" cried Harry Potter. "Blood of his servants! The blood, the life! He summoned them, he took their heads, their blood, the life, to renew his own - THE DARK LORD RISES, VOLDEMORT IS RETURNED!"

...

"Wait -" Harry Potter gasped, his voice lower, but still loud enough that she and the people near her could hear clearly. "He can be stopped - I see his mind, his mistake - he can be stopped now - THE WAY IS STILL OPEN! SHE'S FOLLOWING HIM! SHE WHO VOLDEMORT SLEW! " Harry's voice rose further, as Anna's own mouth fell open in sudden confusion. "RETURN! RETURN, RETURN, REVIVE AND STOP HIM! STOP HIM, HERMIONE! "

And then Harry Potter fell silent. He looked around at the people staring at him.

She'd just about decided that this had to all be a prank in unbelievably poor taste, when a distant but sharp CRACK filled the air.

Harry Potter swayed, and fell to his knees, even as her heart jumped into her throat. An explosion of excited babble rose around them.

She could still hear the words from Harry Potter's mouth, as Professor McGonagall knelt next to him. "It worked," Harry Potter gasped aloud, "she got him, he's gone."

"What? " cried Professor McGonagall, then glanced around. "Quiet! Quiet, all of you! Harry, what happened?"

Harry Potter was speaking rapidly but loudly. "Voldemort - tried to revive - he summoned Death Eaters and he killed them, stole their blood and life - Hermione's body was there, I don't know why, maybe Voldemort was planning to use it for something - Voldemort came back, he resurrected himself, but Hermione followed him back and she destroyed him, he's gone, it's over. It happened in a graveyard near Hogwarts, it's," Harry Potter rose to his feet, still swaying, "I think it's in that direction." Harry Potter pointed in the rough direction the CRACK had come from, "I'm not sure how far. The sound from there took twenty seconds to get here, so maybe two minutes on a broomstick -"
Sure, that all seems entirely plausible.

Harry also tells them that Dumbeldore is dead (or whatever it was that happened to him) so McGonagall is about to go to the graveyard but Flitwick stops her because of some reason he won't say but she clearly understands. So he goes instead. And then they finish the Quidditch game. :psyduck:

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 117: Something to Protect: Minerva McGonagall

It's the next day. McGonagall announces to the school that Dumbledore is gone, Voldemort is dead, Quirrell's dead, Hermione's alive, and - in front of the whole school - that the parents of several current students were death eaters and are now dead. You'd think she might want to break that news individually, but I guess not. And Harry feels bad about that.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

And because Harry had read his father's science fiction and fantasy collection, because he had already read this scene a dozen times over when it happened to other protagonists, there was an image in Harry's mind of Mad-Eye Moody, of the scarred man called Alastor. And Mad-Eye's image was saying, in just the same voice he'd used to speak to Albus Dumbledore in memory, that the Death Eaters had been pointing their wands at Harry, that they had already chosen to take the Dark Mark, that they had been guilty of sins beyond reckoning and maybe beyond Harry's imagination, that they had foregone the deontological protection of good people and made themselves targetable if there was a strong reason to sacrifice them. That it had been necessary to save Harry's innocent parents from torture and Azkaban, that it had been necessary to protect the world from Voldemort. That plain old ordinary Aurors and judges had to do much more morally questionable things than killing sworn and blooded Death Eaters who were pointing wands at them, in the course of carrying out ordinary justices that were less clear-cut but still necessary to society. If it were not right to do what Harry had done, if it were not right to do much more morally ambiguous things than what Harry had done, then society as human beings knew it could not exist. Nobody with common sense would blame Harry for doing it, Neville wouldn't blame him, Professor McGonagall wouldn't blame him, Dumbledore wouldn't blame him, even Hermione would tell him it had been the right thing to do once she knew.

And all of this was true.

Just as it was also true that some part of Harry's mind had calculated that wiping out the blood purist political elite would make it easier and more convenient to rebuild magical Britain afterward. It hadn't been an important consideration, but it had still been calculated in those instants of rapid thought, a check on the long-term consequences to see if they rated as catastrophic, and a decision that they actually rated as pretty much okay. And that check had forgotten that Death Eaters had children at Hogwarts or that one of them wore the face of Draco's father. It wouldn't have changed anything. It wouldn't have changed anything at all. But that was the truth of the calculation Harry's mind had performed, given only seconds to think.

At least Harry could, if the Death Eaters' survivors were in any sort of financial trouble, do something about that easily enough. Transfigure gold, and use the Stone to make it permanent - unless making that much gold would be troublesome to the wizard economy at large, or cause objections from goblins who didn't understand market monetarist economics - though it wasn't as though Harry didn't also have useful services to sell -
And then McGonagall accepts the position of "Acting Headmistress" - because Dumbledore's not technically dead and apparently he automatically gets his job back if he ever returns, regardless of how long he's been away?

Five chapters to go. How are there still five chapters to go?

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 118: Something to Protect: Professor Quirrell

It's Quirrell's funeral and people wanted Harry, an eleven-year-old child, to give the eulogy but he declined. So instead they have a teenager do it.

Eliezer Yudkwosky posted:

"Professor Quirrell was very sick," the tall boy said, his wavering voice falling into a hush of students, occasionally broken by a muffled sob. "I think if Professor Quirrell had been able to fight in the fullness of his power, You-Know-Who couldn't have beat him easily, and maybe not at all. They say that David Monroe was the only one that You-Know-Who was ever afraid of, in his day. But," Oliver's voice broke, "Professor Quirrell wasn't in the fullness of his power. He was very sick. He had trouble walking by himself. And he went to face the Dark Lord, alone."

There was a pause, then, while the students cried for a while.

Oliver wiped away his tears with his sleeve, and spoke again. "We don't know exactly what happened," said Oliver. "I imagine the Dark Lord laughed at him. Maybe made fun of the Professor, for challenging him when he couldn't stand up. Well, he's not laughing now, is he."

There were fierce nods from the students; all of them that Harry could see, from Gryffindor to Slytherin.
It goes on, and it's all just as bad. I was going to quote more of it - maybe all of it - but I decided to spare you. I'll just skip to near the end.

Eliezer Yudkwosky posted:

"Professor Quirrell told us at the beginning of this year that what he taught us would always be our firm foundation in the arts of Defense. And it will be. Forever. We'll teach it to the new students next year, no matter who we have for a professor. The older students will teach the younger ones. That's the solution to the curse on the Defense position. We won't sit around waiting for authority to teach us. And we'll make sure that Professor Quirrell's teachings never die out of Hogwarts."

Harry looked at where Professor - no, Headmistress McGonagall - was sitting, and saw the Headmistress nodding silently, a look that was sad and stern and proud.
Why is the story not over yet? What is left to say at this point?

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 119: Something to Protect: Albus Dumbledore

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

"How - how's Hermione doing?" Harry hadn't had a chance to ask until now.

"Filius said she seemed rather in shock, which I suppose is not surprising. She asked where you were, was told you were at a Quidditch game, asked where you really were, and refused to speak with anyone about what happened until she was allowed to talk with you. She was taken to St. Mungo's, where," the Headmistress now sounded slightly perturbed, "a standard diagnostic Charm showed Miss Granger as a healthy unicorn in excellent physical condition except that her mane needs combing. Charms to detect active magic have each time detected her as being in the process of transforming into another shape. There was an Unspeakable who showed up before Filius, ah, removed him. He performed certain spells he probably ought not to have known, and declared that Hermione's soul was in healthy condition but at least a mile away from her body. At that point the senior healers gave up.
Mad-Eye Moody and Amelia Bones meet with Harry and McGonagall and he tells them that it was actually him who beat Voldemort and what he actually did. McGonagall also has two letters that Dumbledore left for Harry - one to be given in the event of Dumbledore's death and the other in the event of Harry defeating Voldemort. Since both happened in the same day he gets both.

The first one is all about how he's got to defeat Voldemort and the less important characters are going to be his sidekicks (even though they're adults and he's a child). The other letter is about how Dumbledore secretly listened to all the prophecies in the Ministry of Magic and hey said that Harry is going to destroy the world.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

And so, it being clear that this world is not meant to last, I have gambled literally everything upon you, Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres. There were no prophecies of how the world might be saved, so I found the prophecies that offered loopholes in the destruction; and I brought about the strange and complex conditions for those prophecies to come to pass. I ensured that Voldemort discovered a certain one of those prophecies, and so (even as I had feared) condemned your parents to death and made you what you are. I wrote a strange hint in your mother's Potions textbook, having no idea why I must; and this proved to show Lily how to help her sister, and ensured you would gain Petunia Evans's heartfelt love. I snuck invisibly into your bedroom in Oxford and administered the potion that is given to students with Time-Turners, to extend your day's cycle by two hours. When you were six years old I smashed a rock that was on your windowsill, and to this day I cannot imagine why.

All in the desperate hope that you can pass us through the eye of the storm, somehow end this world and yet bring out its people alive.

Now that you have passed the preliminary test of defeating Voldemort, I place my all in your hands, all the tools I can possibly give you. The Line of Merlin Unbroken, the command of the Order of the Phoenix, all my wealth and all my treasures, the Elder Wand out of the Deathly Hallows, the loyalty of such of my friends as may heed me. I have left Hogwarts in Minerva's care, for I do not think you will have time for it, but even that is yours if you demand it from her.

One thing I do not give you, and that is the prophecies. Upon the moment of my departure, they will be destroyed, and no future ones will be recorded, for it was said that you must not look upon them. If you think this frustrating, believe me when I say that even your wit cannot comprehend what frustration you have been spared. I will die, or be lost by you, or in some other way be taken from you - the prophecies are unclear, naturally - without ever once knowing what the future truly holds, or why I must do what I do. It is all cryptic madness and you are well rid of it.
The Line of Merlin is... something. I don't know. Maybe I'm not paying as much attention as I could be. I don't even know if Yudkowsky made it up or if it's from the original books. But apparently one of its functions is that it makes Harry Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot. McGonagall and Bones, idiots that they are, think it might not be a great idea to give all that power and authority to a child, but wise, intelligent Moody blindly trusts that Dumbledore was right to do it (even though Dumbledore was clearly wrong about many things). They compromise and Harry makes Bones his regent.

And remember how Sirius Black and Peter Pettigrew are swapped around in this story, so Sirius is the bad guy and Peter's the good guy? Well Peter is also not merely an animagus but a full-on shapeshifter, and Sirius forced him to transform into a duplicate of Sirius and go to Azkaban in his place. But Sirius was one of the Death Eaters that Harry killed, so now they realise that the one in Azkaban is actually Peter and they're going to let him out. I don't know what the point of that revelation is.

Harry then declares that they're going to shut down Azkaban and Hermione is going to kill all the Dementors. And he's opening a hospital where the Philosopher's Stone will be used to heal everyone any wizard who's dying of anything. The unbreakable vow he made stops him from being able to reveal magic to muggles since it's so dangerous. And we've still got three chapters left.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 120: Something to Protect: Draco Malfoy

Harry tells Draco that he killed Lucius, and then McGonagall wipes his memory. I don't know what the point of that was. Then this:

Eliezer Yusdkowsky posted:

"Here's the last thing," Harry Potter said. "I found it in a folded parchment whose outside said that it was the last weapon to be used against House Malfoy, telling me not to read any further until the whole war hung in the balance. I didn't want to tell it to you before because I thought it might prejudice your decision unfairly. If you were a good person who never killed or lied, but you had to do one or the other, which would be worse?"
Then we cut to a woman in Sydney who's obviously had her memories erased at some point. She thinks she suffered amnesia after a car crash. Until McGonagall shows up with Draco and restores her memories because she's Draco's mum¹ and Dumbledore didn't murder her after all, just wiped her memories and left her in Australia for some reason. I guess that's what happened anyway. It's written in this very vague way where you're obviously supposed to put it together yourself because you actually remember what happened in this story - which I don't - so I had to reread this whole chapter a couple of times to figure it out.

¹The amnesiac is Draco's mum. McGonagall is not Draco's mum.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Epicurius posted:

I honestly don't remember, how does this story treat Ron? Because the Weasleys are frankly pretty drat awesome, Ron is a loveable fuckup, his dad is a doofus, his mom isn't afraid to kick rear end, his siblings are all annoying in just the right ways, and the family is collectively some of the best and most likeable characters in the book.

IIRC Ron is briefly mentioned as a moron who is beneath Harry's notice.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 121: Something to Protect: Severus Snape

McGonagall is trying to figure out what she needs to do next and is consulting with Harry about it for some reason, but both of them are too close to the end of the story tired to think properly. Then Snape walks in and says he's quitting. Which makes perfect sense since wasn't he only there in the first place to help Dumbledore pull off his big plan?

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

He knows. The thought came to Harry, and he couldn't have said in words just what the Potions Master now knew; except that it was clear that Severus knew it.
Sure. OK. He knows a thing that cannot be defined and this explains something.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

"It is well to find you here, Mr. Potter," Severus said. "There is unfinished business between us."

Harry didn't know what to say, so he just nodded.

...

The former Potions Master kept his eyes on Harry. "More than one bar lay between myself and Lily, most notably my ill-advised attempts to curry favor with the purebloods of my house. If I made it sound like one mistake upon a muddy field ended it all, if I pretended that she had no reason but shallowness not to love me, I hope your books have also told you why fools may say such things."

...

"Perhaps," said the former Potions Master. "My final duty was to fail in guarding the Stone, to be struck down. This I have done, and I survived it, which I never expected to do." Severus was leaning against the door through which he'd entered, taking his weight off his left leg. "I would not have thought to ask for your forgiveness, but since you offer it so freely, I will accept with thanks. From this day on I wish to take less unkindly ways, and I think that is best done by starting over."

...

"I do have one last piece of advice," Harry said. "If you want it."

"What is it?" said Severus Snape.

"Ruminating about the past can contribute to depression. You have my blanket permisson to just never think about your past, ever. You shouldn't think that it's your responsibility to Lily to bear your guilt for her, or anything like that. Just keep your mind on your future and whatever new people you meet."

"I shall take your wisdom into consideration," Severus said neutrally.

"Also, try a different brand of hair shampoo."

A wry grin crossed Severus's face, and Harry thought it might have been, for the first time, that man's true smile. "Drop dead, Potter."
Quoted just so I'm not the only one who had to read it. That is some atrocious dialogue.

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

and that was the last that anyone ever heard of Severus Snape.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


V. Illych L. posted:

the reason he gets snubbed by these books is because he represents a rejection of a particular kind of ideology which takes having a high iq a virtue and means that it is only moral to learn to think in such a way as to increase one's iq scores (roughly)

I think it's simpler than that. He's obviously a moron because he likes football quidditch.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Chapter 122: Something to Protect: Hermione Granger

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

In the room below, connected to the rooftop by a simple wooden ladder, was Harry's new office inside Hogwarts. A wide room, surrounded by full-wall windows on four sides for sunlight; currently bare of furnishings but for four chairs and a desk. Harry had told Headmistress McGonagall what he was looking for, and Headmistress McGonagall had put on the Sorting Hat and then told Harry the series of twists and turns that would take him where he wanted to be. High enough in Hogwarts that the castle shouldn't have been that tall, high enough in Hogwarts that nobody looking from the outside would see a piece of castle corresponding to where Harry now sat. It seemed like an elementary precaution against snipers that there was no reason not to take.
Snipers? And why the gently caress does an 11-year-old have an office?

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

The prophecy Dumbledore's letter had mentioned about him tearing apart the stars in heaven... well, that sounded optimistic. That part had an obvious interpretation to anyone who'd grown up with the right sort of upbringing. It described a future where humanity had won, more or less. It wasn't what Harry usually thought about when he gazed at the stars, but from a truly adult perspective, the stars were enormous heaps of valuable raw materials that had unfortunately caught fire and needed to be scattered and put out. If you were tapping the huge hydrogen-helium reservoirs for raw materials, that meant your species had successfully grown up.
That seems like a ludicrously difficult and inconvenient way to acquire resources if you've already solved the problem of travelling to (or bringing things back from) other star systems. There's planets and asteroids and poo poo that are all made of "valuable raw materials".

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

The thought came then to Harry of another work of fiction, more obscure than Tolkien:

You can only arrive at mastery by practicing the techniques you have learned, facing challenges and apprehending them, using to the fullest the tools you have been taught, until they shatter in your hands and you are left in the midst of wreckage absolute... I cannot create masters. I have never known how to create masters. Go, then, and fail... You have been shaped into something that may emerge from the wreckage, determined to remake your Art. I cannot create masters, but if you had not been taught, your chances would be less. The higher road begins after the Art seems to fail you; though the reality will be that it was you who failed your Art.
That quote didn't sound at all familiar to me and didn't seem particularly well-written or meaningful so I googled it to figure out what obscure author Yudkowsky had decided to reference. It's himself. Just when you think you've seen it all he pulls this in the final chapter. :psyduck:

Eliezer Yudkowsky posted:

Harry was aware on some level - no, he needed to stop being aware of things on some level and start just being aware of them - Harry was explicitly and consciously aware that he was ruminating about the Future mostly to distract himself from the imminent arrival of Hermione Granger.
Who is thinking this? What the gently caress does it mean? If you can make a decision to be consciously aware of something then you already are, aren't you?

Then Hermione shows up and they have a very tedious conversation recapping the last few chapters in which she consistently and repeatedly addresses him as "Mr. Potter", which I find incredibly irritating. Harry gives her the cloak of invisibility and then, after a conversation that seems like it's never going to end, they swear to be friends forever and that's it. It's over. We made it. Now let's never speak of it again.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


cultureulterior posted:

Hope you guys had fun! I still think it's a fantastic work of literature- (I voted for it as best novel Hugo), but people do get different things out of books!

I just checked your post history in this thread and the one thing you seem to have actually said you like about it is that the protagonist is pro-immortality. Is that really enough to get you past literally everything else about it or do you also think it's good in other ways?

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


cultureulterior posted:

The only book where both the time travel and people's (Harry's) reaction to time travel makes sense.
Not even close to true. Read more books.

cultureulterior posted:

Excellent descriptions of high-powered magic.
Many hilarious parts, e.g. clothes shop
Quirrell was an excellent villain up until chapter 108ish
I guess these are pretty subjective, and since you aren't interested in literary analysis I guess it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to explain what you liked about them.

cultureulterior posted:

Exploiting magic system of transfiguration/patronus worked well for me. (Most people get imdoctrinated with the anti-immortality sour grapes so it makes sense that few people could do it)
I would say that the idea that Harry could do partial transfiguration (given that apparently no one else could) was a moderately clever idea, except that it raised more questions than it answered. Why could no other muggle-born could do it? Why had no wizard realised that it was their own internal concept of an object that determined what could be transfigured on its own? You don't have to know what an atom or molecule is to realise that a car is a single object and so is the wheel of that car, etc. And from there it's only a short step to conceptualising half an orange as distinct from the object that is an entire orange. An apple core is a single, whole object and so is the apple it came out of. So why couldn't a wizard transfigure the core while it was still in the apple?

Same with the patronus thing. Harry's super power is that he is literally the first person to ever think that it defeating death could be possible - but the deathly hallows are based on that very idea. His uniqueness is contradicted within the story.

cultureulterior posted:

Time pressure being applied by the joint effort of high powered seers is a great reason for an implausible plot to work out. (Few realize this, Worm, Wheel of Time, Jean Johnson, Rothfuss are the only ones I know of)
Read more books. Or even watch more movies.

cultureulterior posted:

(I generally stay away from books without either spaceships or magic)

...

analysis- not literary,(about which I do not care)
There's no way to say this without sounding like a condescending arsehole, but this explains everything, really.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Added Space posted:

So, ideas brought up but not explored -

There are a few occasions early on where Harry thinks about bringing muggle science, technology and methods to not just magic but the wizarding world in general, and then never does. Like when he finds out how wizard money works and realises that, with his wealth and knowledge of commodity markets, he could destroy their economy. Not saying he should have done that, but why bring it up if no one's going to try it?

Of course, you could take that as simply a joke intended to poke fun at the less serious aspects of the source material, but that's another example of things that were promised and never delivered on. There are a number of examples early on where Harry is shocked by how things work in the wizarding world and it seems like the story's going to spend some time exploring that, but it never does. It's just the most obvious and shallow observations that everyone's heard before and they're abandoned entirely when Yudkowsky decides that actually he's trying to write a serious story rather than a parody.

There's also the stuff about killing dementors. It's pretty clearly set up that Harry is eventually going to go and dismantle Azkaban and hunt down every dementor, and in the end he not only doesn't do that but he actually assigns Hermione to do it instead. Or rather, plans to. The story ends just at the point where he's about to explain this to her. No exploration of how this would be done in practice or what impact it would have on society or how people would react. It's just assumed that it's going to be fine because Hermione can do it and she's immortal now and supposedly killed Voldemort so I guess everyone will just accept it?

Or how about Harry and the other students all learning and improvising new combat strategies and teamwork and all that. Could have had that pay off with an actual battle - like the source material did - but nope. The final confrontation is essentially one-on-one. The armies and all the characters introduced for that giant side-plot are totally irrelevant.

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


Cardiovorax posted:

I'm not a native speaker, aren't they pronounced the same way in English?

No. "Scion" is pronounced with an unvoiced S sound as in "ice". "Zion" is pronounced with a voiced Z sound as in "zoo".

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


90s Cringe Rock posted:

Now, give thanks to the person who compiled those threads into ebook format, causing the author to abandon the third book in the series before it began.

What's the story there?

Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


divabot posted:

so can we do Red Tidday Up White Tidday Down now, or maybe Dark Lord's Answer, or

Who's "we"? You can certainly start those threads if you want to. I'll read them. The threads, that is. I'm not volunteering to take on another one of these... texts.

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Tiggum
Oct 24, 2007

Your life and your quest end here.


divabot posted:

the reader realises what she's let herself in for

I don't know if you noticed, but the first tweet in that thread says "i'm going to reread HPMOR". She's already read it at least once. :stare:

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