Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

anilEhilated posted:

"Rationalism" is a horrible, horrible misnomer.

Well, they do use it to rationalise horrible, horrible things.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2016 12:51

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 01:57

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Vateke posted:

*reads quote*

*clicks link*

...okay, I'm really tempted to read this. Can you recommend this at all, or is this just a good moment from a bad fic?

Wow, the linked fic really is negaverse MOR. You need a decent stomach for twee, but it's a really charming read, where the smart, eccentric protagonist wants nothing more than to have fun with the world he's found himself in and bring the best out of the people around him so they can have nice, fun lives too.

Certainly haven't read many Harry Potter stories with that level of empathy for Argus Filch, for a start.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 12:56

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Liquid Communism posted:

I can't believe you let this blatantly racist poo poo fly under the radar.

Not to contradict your point, just to speak alongside it, but do remember that the author's name is Eliezer Shlomo Yudkowsky. There's some none-too-subtle ethnic posturing going on here.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2017 15:26

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

The Shortest Path posted:

Should I know anything in particular about this person other than being a writer of presumably terrible fanfiction?

Also,

Notorious for being verbose and mentally unstable even by the standards of fanfiction writers. Has written multiple stories almost as big as HPMOR, and even more full of author-insert rants and bizarre and disgusting fetishes, that have an entirely unreasonable number of people defending them with 'well it starts out good, honest!'.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2017 16:25

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Night10194 posted:

The thing is, Yud basically believes a sufficiently intelligent person will arrive at brilliant ideas instantly and a-priori. He talks a big game about the scientific method, but at heart he believes ~rationalism~ with a sufficiently intelligent character or person will just get things right immediately most of the time. So to him what would matter is that this was wrong, not that it could be wrong and that that represented a big step forward in the explanation of natural phenomena.

Which, ironically, is a very Aristotelian way of thinking.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2017 14:30

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

I do rather wonder what this would mean in terms of population growth. I can see overcrowding rapidly becoming a real problem.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2017 15:06

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Exercu posted:

It was good enough to stop Voldemort, so I think that's pretty good.

Honestly, the stone is pretty well protected, because it requires an incredibly varied assortment of skills with no preparation - and of course, you generally don't know what they are beforehand.

1. Get to Hogwarts. Hard enough on its own, really, since you can't apparate in.
2. Find the right room.
3. Pass the idiot test (Can you open a lock with magic?).
4.Fight a big three-headed dog in a narrow space, unless you know it was put there by Hagrid, in which case you can trick him into giving up the information that you just need to play some music.
5. Have decent knowledge of Herbology so you don't get Devil Snared.
6. Be good at flying so you can catch the right key.
7. Be a master of chess so you can win against the magic pieces without losing the piece you replaced.
8. Beat a troll.
9. Be good enough at logic to make it through the flames.
10. Now that you've made it through all those things - it is imperative that you don't actually want the stone, because then you can't get it.

Harry and the others made it through because 1-2 were a gimme, 3 was easy, 4 was done for them, they legitimately did 5. 6 was literally the only thing Harry was good at in his first year at Hogwarts. 7 is literally the only thing Ron is ever good at (except for being a goalkeeper later). 8 was done for them. 9. is Hermione's forte, and of course, they could do 10 because Harry didn't want the STONE per se.

Voldemort has the advantage of skipping 1-2 as well, having prior knowledge of most of the trials because Quirrell was part of setting them up, and he still fails.

The Mirror of Erised is what really brings the whole thing together. Anyone who makes it through all that difficult, dangerous, and just plain tedious bullshit has to be pretty determined to get the Stone, and then there's a final safeguard that says that the more you want it, the less you can have it. It's pretty brilliantly evil, and still means that if the setup is compromised and you need to relocate the Stone to somewhere safer, you can just waltz past all those puzzles you know the answer to and the Mirror will cheerfully hand your incredibly valuable relic over.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2017 10:50

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

It helps that Natural 20 is about two equally insane magical settings intersecting - there�s no particular favouritism, just the bizarre arbitrary poo poo in D&D coming together with the bizarre arbitrary poo poo in Harry Potter to create utter insanity.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2017 16:30

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

90s Cringe Rock posted:

It helps even more that the police get involved.

Yeah, Fiona was a really cool addition to the cast.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2017 02:44

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

teacup posted:

So I stopped following this thread when it took so long to actually go through it and started reading the fic itself as some sort of weird hate reading. It�s cute enough to have the concept of harry dismantling the wizard Ong world with logic but I feel it could have sustained a short story at best at a decent level of quality. That said I�m still reading it so what the gently caress do I know.

I was on chapter 22 and what the gently caress is the line about padma patel doing well as she is from a non English background so her parents believe in education, and someone Goldstein is from a �tiny ethnic group that gets 25% of the worlds nobel prizes�

Surely people weren�t happy with this- is that why there is a note at the start saying it�s not his opinion just that of the character? It�s such a pointless addition.

As an uncritical embrace of the Enlightenment, HPMOR includes more than a few weird racist bits. See my post history in this thread for a couple more.

# ¿ Mar 11, 2018 14:49

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

So that effortpost I made about Dumbledore�s Army and the Year of Darkness way back in the thread�s history suddenly became a lot more relevant, huh? :stare:

Goddamnit, fanfiction cults, why you gotta do this?

# ¿ Jun 29, 2018 21:05

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Jazerus posted:

the original books have the same issue, it's a fundamental problem with the harry potter narrative structure because it all has to culminate in teenagers killing a resurrected warlock who has lived five times as long as they have, with powers beyond those of other men, who has hidden his heart within a jar, etc. which is fundamentally implausible within the established rules of the world and causes the narrative to contort further and further as it closes in on the end

i enjoyed LA as a better version of the story than the originals but it's still a bad skeleton for a story no matter how you flesh it out

I mean, they set up the balance of the conflict right from the beginning. Voldemort is powerful, but it�s an entirely selfish power. Everything is invested in himself, and he�s incapable of understanding others or inspiring loyalty. He�s pitted himself alone against a large, diverse magical society, and the key to defeating him is to remind all those hundreds and thousands that they can be better than him, that they don�t have to crumble away into thousands of tiny islands of fear and greed, and that every contribution they make to opposing him, no matter how tiny, will be part of a vast, crushing tide. Voldemort may be more mature than Harry physically, but mentally, he�s still a stunted, selfish child.

Rowling didn�t always write that to its full potential, and drifted away from it and towards dumb rules-lawyering at several important points, but it�s absolutely not an unworkable structure for a story.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 19:07

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Jazerus posted:

oh yeah i agree, but ultimately the prophecy forces it to be a personal confrontation, one that can only be won through suddenly-appearing ancient artifacts because knowledge is literally power for a wizard and it's impossible for harry to challenge voldemort's mastery of magic directly without outside help. that's why the first four books are more compelling than the story arc that connects 5, 6, & 7; voldemort is a tractable threat before his resurrection, but not after.

the solution is for harry's role to be less personal. he should uniformly get his rear end kicked by voldemort once voldemort is resurrected, with his own strength, as you say, being the ability to rally society's strength. LA definitely is better than the original story on this count, but hermione ends up taking on too large of a role rather than society at large rejecting the death eater ideology and fighting back

The alternative is, of course, to have it the other way around. Have Voldemort gradually get worn down by betrayals from his allies and the unexpected courage of ordinary people until a teenage boy drawing on all he�s learned from his friends and mentors can kick his rear end.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2018 21:20

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Added Space posted:

Well, one of the things about HP is that wizarding society secretly agrees with Voldy and would probably have elected him if he had a less bellicose approach. In this context it's hard to create a feel good people banding together ending.

Then again, the hero having an uphill struggle ahead of �em ain�t necessarily a bad thing, and seeing Harry�s good deeds snowball as he inspires other people to be better and do better (and they in turn inspire others) could be really sweet and satisfying.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2018 02:40

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Tunicate posted:

In terms of being the absolute polar opposite of HPMoR, I'm a fan of Potter Who and the Wossname's Thingummy

I mean, it�s really twee, so you need some tolerance for that, but the sense of wonder and the empathy for the cast make it a really pleasant read if you can accept it.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2018 20:40

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Xander77 posted:

What are you doing in this thread?

Some things that are hard to argue with:

Dresden is a bullying rear end in a top hat who has a boatload of issues with women even by noir multiplied by fantasy standards. Which would have been interesting, if only the author ever became aware that he IS in fact writing a misogynistic bullying rear end in a top hat, rather than a Philip Marlowe with magic powers.

There�s a difference?

# ¿ Aug 7, 2018 19:57

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Stroth posted:

You know, out of all of that, I'll I can think is "If someone was trying to kill you with a spear, they probably wouldn't only use the blunt end. It's not a weapon for beating someone to death."

I mean, it kind of is (a quarterstaff is just a spear with two blunt ends), but it�s at least a bit unusual to start by using it that way unless you�re in very close quarters.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2018 02:04

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Didn't Neville's parents also get badly hosed up by Obliviate (among other things)?

# ¿ Jun 7, 2019 14:43

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

At least Yudkowsky was helpful enough to warn us all that this was coming with his OKCupid profile.

Reminds me of an effortpost I did earlier in the thread about another Harry Potter cult that turned lethal.

Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jun 30, 2019

# ¿ Jun 30, 2019 17:00

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

oh god oh gently caress oh god oh gently caress

# ¿ Aug 29, 2019 21:10

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 01:57

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Necrotizer F posted:

I went to the top of the thread to try to read some of Rationality and learned the author hopes to build "friendly AI." From the work it seems unlikely he'll ever achieve friendly AI. Conditionally benevolent (if sneeringly superior) AI, maybe, but friendly AI is likely beyond him.

A GiveWell Director very politely ripping into the Singularity Institute was fun.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2019 11:17

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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