Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I mock the writing in the story because it's bad and we're on somethingawful.com, but Yud's cult is legitimately fascinating to me as a religious studies guy who is interested in getting into studying emerging religions, and so his proselytization-fiction is actually really interesting from an academic standpoint.

Also, as someone who came out of a high school for the gifted, I can say it's definitely productive in some ways (I had access to a lot of very good teachers and classes) but counterproductive in others (there was a sort of accidental promotion of the kind of learning style I see in Yud, and I was definitely not above it. I never really learned to buckle down and work on stuff I didn't 'love' until I got to college, where a goodly number of my fellow graduates flunked.)

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Mar 25, 2015

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 01:28

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 06:01

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Darth Walrus posted:

I went looking, and now my world is a silent, wordless scream.

What the hell do you expect from a guy who is 'Hey! Evolutionary Psych and :biotruths:

are amazing!'

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 03:05

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I'd define it primarily as people who are actual contributors to his institute (financial ones), and who are members of the Less Wrong community. I have no idea if you're a member. You're pretty obviously a fan of the work, but that has no real bearing on if you self identify as a member of the community or of Yudkowsky or similar 'rationalist' orbits. My primary academic interest is in the fact that this fiction, and the Sequences, and many of his theories, have a cast very similar to a lot of Christian religious and apocalyptic dogma, despite their avowed atheism. I'm currently beginning to gather data and do reading on his work because of the fascinating parallels between the Cryonics stuff and the Christian resurrection of the Dead, the similarities between AI Go Foom and classic apocalypse, etc, because I have approval and support from my old advisers from my master's program that there might be a productive bit of work to be done on singularity and science fetish cults, and on the sort of cross pollination between commonplace religious ideas in the larger culture and the texture of what they end up believing.

I'm at the very beginning of working on this, mind, and have a hell of a lot of reading to do still. Just some of the ideas and the general shape of things piqued my interest in their similarity and merit looking into from an academic standpoint.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2015 07:41

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

No, I just keep torturing to keep the dust away.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2015 05:22

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

i81icu812 posted:

Nah, the idea behind flooding is to keep going with the phobic stimulus till the patient's panic/adrenaline reaction has run its course and they are too tired to continue to respond. Theory being after if you don't reacting to clowns or whatever because you're too tired to move for long enough you'll realize the phobia is irrational and clowns are actually harmless. Also does not work very well without patient consent.

God, I don't think I could handle that for my flying phobia.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2015 22:24

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I suspect Hermione is being set up as the Educated Stupid character, where her 'conventional' education and scholarly nature exist to show that Harry is vastly smarter because he doesn't need to bother with teachers.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2015 07:35

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Added Space posted:

I'm going to say I like the hat as a character, since this is the only time in the story that this twit gets the verbal pantsing he so richly deserves.

That's interesting to think on. I think the Hat is the first character so far to tell Harry to just gently caress off, isn't it?

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 20:05

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

V. Illych L. posted:

neville is a griffindor to the bones, though. he's brave and generous to a fault

A lot of people mistakenly assume you have to be super powerful to be a hero, not just a good person who does their best.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 03:07

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I'm not seeing why he shouldn't be in Slytherin. He's much more interested in power and leverage than knowledge. Knowledge is a means to an end for him, nothing more.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2015 20:37

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

petrol blue posted:

Because Jud took one look at Ravenclaw and got a massive boner, so Harriezer has to be in Ravenclaw.

More like Ravenclaw is the Smart People house and Yud thinks Harriezer is Smart, so he has to be there. Ravenclaw is what Yud wants to think he is.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2015 20:52

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Bobbin Threadbare posted:

he's a natural leader, he ignores rules that get in his way, he's prone to fits of anger, and he tends to judge people before getting to know them.

I mean, that's sort of supposed to be a core tension. The Hat even tells him as much in the real books: "You could be one of them, you'd do amazingly well."

# ¿ Apr 15, 2015 00:02

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

JosephWongKS posted:

Has Eliezarry completely failed to read any biographies or just general world history? Historically, the people who�ve achieved the most are those who were able to mobilize, unite and lead others, not those who were merely individually talented.

Killing the Great Man theory of history is really hard, when it's simple and an awful lot of fiction reinforces it.

The key word there is fiction, mind you. In reality, we might know Napoleon's name, and the name of his closest lieutenants, but you can be drat sure he had a lot of other underlings whose work was just as essential to how things played out. The unsung captains, clerks, line infantry, etc who all contributed to the collective endeavor of making Europe poo poo itself, then biting off too much to chew and losing.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Apr 16, 2015

# ¿ Apr 16, 2015 08:45

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

He's not, though. He has the inclination, but not the ability.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2015 05:24

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Hat, you tell that smug little poo poo.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2015 05:52

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Krotera posted:

I take back my upset, hat is cool and Yud is cool for the moment at least.

Hat is going to prove to be wrong because he said 'You should take the safer option' which is bad writer code for 'what I'm suggesting is just out of fear and jealousy.'

# ¿ Apr 17, 2015 22:46

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I went to a gifted high school. It's not nearly as impressive as Yud imagines it is.

# ¿ May 6, 2015 02:04

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

HIJK posted:

I always figured it was like regular school just with more complicated homework.

It's basically a regular private school where you can talk your way out of your homework more easily, and where you have access to some more esoteric classes. It's seriously nothing particularly special, though I did have some teachers I'm still in touch with and who were really, really good.

# ¿ May 6, 2015 02:41

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Pavlov posted:

The kind of teachers they attract can really be worth it though. I had an environmental science teacher who ran a maple syrup operation, a brook trout hatchery, and hand crafted birch bark canoes using original native american methods. Coolest guy I ever met.

The things my debate/english teacher taught me formed the foundation of all of my academic writing and the class did a huge amount to show me how to form an argument and how to try to see two sides of things. My history teachers got me into history, which led me to religion, which led to my current studies. It was really valuable and I'm really glad I went there overall, it's just that it's not some incredible mecca of super-brilliant people who all sit around talking up how manipulative and dangerous we all are like Yud would imagine.

Mostly, it also meant I didn't get teased for running a D&D group for four years in high school, too, which was a plus.

# ¿ May 6, 2015 05:04

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

SSNeoman posted:

It's a a little hard to do this considering Yud never read the original books.

That will always be the funniest part of this crap. He's writing fanfiction of fanfiction.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2015 17:51

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Curvature of Earth posted:

Then I remember that Yud isn't a young teen with dial-up internet and no income. He's a loving adult whose entire day is free time and can afford whatever media he wants. Suck it up and read the source material you poo poo.

It isn't a matter of time. He's decided it's 'stupid' and he'll fix it without ever reading it based on passed down fan-memes and the fanfic he's read.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2015 18:34

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

anilEhilated posted:

Well, it's good to know people have contingency plans to deal with time-traveling evil AIs from the future. Really helps ~~you~~ your soon to be endlessly tortured simulation sleep soundly at night.

We're going to get into that kind of stuff more in this later, but a common theme in his work is that super smart people should hide all dangerous ideas from the simple, normal folk, as if scientists were a cabal of secret wizards.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2015 18:19

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Curvature of Earth posted:

Gnostic atheism. No gods, no masters, but ~~divine~~ rational secrets of the universe that only the wise and mighty rationalists can be privileged with.

Well, yes. As I said earlier in the thread, my interest in Yud is entirely in how closely his work maps to a religion.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2015 18:47

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Yeah, basically everything Eliezer writes is based on the idea that not only do Great People exist, he (and other rationalists) are those Great People.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2015 07:47

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

anilEhilated posted:

what the gently caress is a keer

edit: Someone should really get this clown to a psychology 101 course. Somehow the whole thing gets stupider as it goes on.

That would require getting near a college, which might show him he's not a hyper genius.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2015 18:49

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Polybius91 posted:

That trend is part of a larger pattern I've seen that always bugged me, and that's the idea that more words = better story. I'm not sure where this idea came from or why it has so much hold among fanfiction communities in general, but it literally goes against all the writing advice I ever heard: keep your work as short as possible without losing substance or clarity.

Then again, in Yud's case at least it makes sense, since substance and clarity aren't exactly his strong points to begin with.

It's the same reason a lot of fantasy reads like the author was writing with a thesaurus in one hand. It's what a bad author thinks a good author sounds like.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2015 02:44

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Pavlov posted:

This is because Yudkowsky does not actually want magic that works like science. He wants science that works like magic.

I think one reason so many of these singulitarian booster types either never went to college or failed at science in college is because of this. I dropped out of Biochemistry to study history, myself, because once I got in enough I A: Discovered I absolutely can't do Calc 3 and have a hell of a time with Organic Chemistry and B: Even if I could've, I wasn't enjoying that kind of work enough to want to do the sheer amount of grunt work on it that science requires. Like, science is both intellectually difficult, but it requires a lot of passion because there's a hell of a lot of hard, repetitive work involved (just like any form of research) and if you don't enjoy it or just instantly want results you're going to be miserable. I enjoy history and religious studies enough to be happy reading through hundreds of pages of old philosophy or combing religious texts for citations and textual support, but wouldn't have felt the same about biochem and lab work. Guys like Yud, I feel, are essentially writing about how disappointed they are that science doesn't work like it does in science fiction and Hollywood. "Why can't I be the supreme master of the mind who is so smart he can manipulate everyone and instantly reasons his way through the plot?" and "Science should be all about being smart enough and enabling all my dreams, not all this boring hard work and study."

# ¿ Aug 31, 2015 18:40

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Darth Walrus posted:

To be completely fair to a story that deserves little fairness, isn't the whole point there that Harry's trying to market science in a way that appeals to a Slytherin? Secret, hidden knowledge is basically catnip to wizards.

Were it not for all his other writings I would give it the benefit of this doubt, but no, Harry is also pretty clear later on this is how science should be done, too. One of the big themes of this story is that intellectual pursuits are A: The only thing that matters at all (and only in STEM-ish fields through a hollywood view) and B: An inherently elite pursuit whose gifted practitioners are the only ones wise enough to use or benefit from, and who must keep these things secret from the foolish morlocks and hufflepuffs who would abuse them.

# ¿ Sep 1, 2015 21:16

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Cingulate posted:

Only think about him I respect. Grown-ups shouldn't read books for kids.

I think reading a ton of fanfiction about the books to be able to write a cult tract is actually notably worse than just reading some fantasy novels for fun.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2015 17:35

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Hate Fibration posted:

I actually do not think Yudkowsky is very smart. He seems to only grapple with concepts in a very superficial way. Very little of what he says illustrates a deeper understanding than one that pretty much any literate person can gain from reading wikipedia articles and arguing with people on the internet. Moreover, he tends to have a very large number of blind spots that he fails to see. His grasp of the nature and uses of Bayes' Theorem is possibly the most egregious example of this. What Yudkowsky is is imaginative. Note, that I did not say creative, his bag of tricks seems quite small (Bayes' Theorem^TM, recursion, tropes/memes). He is very prone to indulging in fanciful ideas and grand ambitions. And there is a certain charisma that goes along with that. Especially if you are a true believer, which Yudkowsky, very ironically, is.

I think a lot of this is the function of him having very little formal education and thus being very unused to engaging with topics past the point that they start to feel challenging. He's never been forced to try to press on on something, and so sticks to 'easy' surface analysis that makes him feel smart (and look smart to his followers).

# ¿ Sep 6, 2015 19:39

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

chessmaster13 posted:

I'll have to think about this. What really puts me of is that there are people who "are followers". Doesn't seem right to me.

The guy runs an actual cult.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2015 20:28

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Clipperton posted:

what

His concept of the friendly AI is a God. It will be able to do whatever.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2015 21:04

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Nakar posted:

I seem to recall the "human" player wins that thought exercise by just stonewalling, because the rules outright say they can do that. Are there any provable instances of the AI player "winning?" I'd be really curious to see the argument and also willing to bet the people he's "won" against are phenomenally stupid or already inclined to his point of view, because it's a game you should win 100% of the time when playing as the human if you have any desire to actually do so.

It's only ever won when he plays against his own cultists.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2015 22:25

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

SSNeoman posted:

Why is reading speed now a measurement of dick size?

It's an intellectual contest and intellect is the only trait that measures the worth of a person in Yud's mind.

Also, he has a tremendously shallow view of what it means to be intelligent.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2015 06:13

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Tunicate posted:

That's the same community that tries to maximize their productivity by setting text-to-speech to some insanely high WPM, to get more things read.

These people are idiots.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2015 06:28

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Well, remember how little formal education Yud's had. He probably has no conception of the damage huge class sizes can do to the ability to teach in an environment with younger students, and so assumes the limits were something like 'If we put the Gryffindors and the Slytherins together they'll fight!'

# ¿ Sep 29, 2015 16:52

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Qwertycoatl posted:

I went to a British private school (not a public school or a state school, thanks confusing and archaic education system ) and we had four houses (200ish people in each), but they didn't really matter for much. Classes were all mixed and it was really just about scoring points on sports day (we didn't get points taken off for bad behaviour or added for defeating dark wizards).

So was defeating dark wizards just a required part of the curriculum, or something done as volunteer work to boost your credentials?

# ¿ Sep 29, 2015 21:40

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Doesn't the actual Killing Curse have some enormous requirement to it and constitute an incredible moral transgression to even consider using? It's been a long time since I read the books, but I recall a lot of the forbidden spells being forbidden with good reason and nothing to rely on unless you were a really practiced Death Eater and a huge son of a bitch.

# ¿ Oct 1, 2015 08:43

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

EvilTaytoMan posted:

Yeah you have to have killing intent to use it, and it splits your soul into pieces as a result. It's how Voldemort was able to make the horcruxes.

That sounds real bad. So basically to use it you have to be evil and willing to gently caress your very being over?

# ¿ Oct 1, 2015 08:57

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I think Quirrel is not being very subtle about being ole' Voldy this time. "Hey kids! You know what's the best defense against the Dark Arts? Constant use of the Dark Arts to solve all your problems!"

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Oct 1, 2015

# ¿ Oct 1, 2015 09:17

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 06:01

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Furia posted:

Is everyone else seeing here Yud justifying being a high-school dropout and raging against academical institutions or is it just me?

Everything he writes has that undercurrent.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2015 07:24

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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