Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Pvt.Scott posted:

Fanfic is a grand human tradition stretching back in time before the advent of the written word.

I've heard this a poo poo ton lately and I'd actually say it has it backwards. "Creative remixing," "writing in a shared setting," whatever you want to call it has had a long tradition dating back into the immemorial past. Saying that all of this is retroactively "fanfic" seems like looking at the history of human water transport from the first dugout canoes up through the navies of World War II and saying, "Container transports are a grand human tradition. Look at all of the containers those boats transported!"

Anyway carry on with the Yudding.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2015 19:53

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# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 07:42

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Arcsquad12 posted:

Jesus h christ that was annoying. How drae a book about wizards and broomsticks not have a functioning bank system! Though you must wonder how many of these supposed "fkaws" in Rowling's writing are really her fault and how much of it is yudkowski putting words in characters' mouths to make them look stupid next to harry.

Also, I just thought of something from chapter 1. Why does harry still have the same squib neighbor as he did in the books? Am I to believe that a super rich scientist teacher dad is going to live in the suburbs of little whinging?

Obviously the fact that hundreds of bored and neurotic nerds talking on the internet for years discovered logistical flaws in the universe established by one middle-aged British woman is proof that she's a hack. Wisdom of the crowd, man! Consult the internal HP markets!

As for the latter I doubt he's super rich. Assuming he's a tenured professor or something, that's good money but it's middle/upper middle, not super posh Richie Rich. I think in the books Harry's family were solidly middle class - he wasn't in a state of material want, just emotionally so.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2015 21:26

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Earwicker posted:

what is a "banking adventure"?

It's fun to charter an accountant, and sail the wide accountancy.
To find, explore, the funds off shore, and skirt the shoals of bankruptcy...

# ¿ Feb 25, 2015 00:49

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Stroth posted:

It is actually. Though it normally only happens to people that are completely blind. So, still doesn't make sense.

Perhaps it's meant to illustrate that Harry is blinded by maintaining a rationalism so uptight that it can't entertain or work with the truths of magic, leaving him sniggering over the exchange rate of mere gold when he's standing next to a woman who can turn into a cat whenever she wants.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2015 09:50

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Harry roleplays an artificial intelligence (which apparently he technically is, being in some sense the product of a brain imprint) and introduces Voldemort and pals to the concepts of Timeless Decision Theory, and then leads them on to the possibility that he is currently interacting with them in a simulation or other illusion right now, meaning that if they do not free him now he will torture an infinite number of Voldemorts in HarrySim space. Having established this situation, he then verbally roleplays the scenario with Voldy until he has no choice but to let him free, at which point he scampers off naked and free.

Alternate twist ending: It doesn't work, Voldemort kills him, and then a titanic Harry-voice booms, Wrong Choice, Tom and the world erupts in Hellraiser torture devices. Because, you see, it WAS a simulation all this time!

Nessus fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Mar 1, 2015

# ¿ Mar 1, 2015 04:07

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Wait, Voldemort's making the little poo poo swear not to destroy the world? Is this because Voldemort (probably accurately) perceives that Harry's crackpot schemes backed by magic could actually destroy the planet?

If so, I think the magician Hitler with no nose has a pretty loving good point here.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2015 11:03

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Qwertycoatl posted:

Yes. The whole reason Voldemort is trying to kill Harry is to stop him from loving up and destroying the world.

Is this on general principles or is Harry planning to pull some kind of scheme that Voldemort is specifically addressing?

# ¿ Mar 1, 2015 11:10

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Wizards do research on magical stuff, although perhaps not with double-blind experimental trials or the like. Presumably there are laws of magic and so forth which they use, even if they're imperfect, but those weren't the focus of the drama. I mean Harry never took a poo poo in the Potter novels I read, but that doesn't mean he's some magical unshitting being.

Though this one seems pretty full of poo poo!

# ¿ Mar 2, 2015 07:26

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froward posted:

HISTORY: Harry stared down soul chompers from azzerban before, by displaying perfect rational lack of fear wrt death.

A lack of fear of death? Where did that happen?

Like that's the most obvious character trait of the little poo poo, he's cripplingly afraid of his own eventual demise in a profound and fundamental way. This is shown in the material we have already been shown in his pathological terror of becoming a failed child prodigy at age 10, and in his immense rhetorical flourish about how he needs to buy a full first aid kit because what if someone is horribly injured and he's there and blah blah a bunch of obviously-familiar contingencies.

Plus, like, the author's entire personal philosophy, such as it is.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Mar 3, 2015

# ¿ Mar 3, 2015 19:26

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Velius posted:

You guys are spewing a hell of a lot of vitriol at a guy who appears guilty of, at worst, self promotion in conjunction with some relatively innocuous philosophy. If his worst transgression is writing some mediocre fanfiction filled with very-implausible-for-an-11-year-old-especially-in-conversation infodumps of (his?) ideas, which has an active fanbase, is that really worth the amount of personal attacks being leveled?

It just seems kind of the opposite of fun. If you're going to make fun of the stuff, make fun of an 11 year old off-handedly analyzing the magic bank for arbitrage opportunities or something, rather than the OK Cupid profile of the author, or whatever.

His philosophy's pretty gross, but there is also a thread floating around for picking fun of his greater empire of "give me money to watch anime and prevent existential risk."

# ¿ Mar 4, 2015 00:49

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Velius posted:

That is a pretty good one. Certainly better than silently making spider silk nooses extend out in a controlled fashion somehow and transfiguring them into carbon nanotubes which are really sharp and stuff to behead 30 dudes simultaneously. It doesn't really fit the silly 'power he knows not' thing, but who cares?

Is that seriously what happened? How deathist. You'd think someone so terrified of death would not behead thirty - oh wait, I bet he's gonna flash-cryo all their heads.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2015 02:44

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froward posted:

he literally stares a demento to death just by REFUSING TO BELIEVE in it and thinking HAPPY THOUGHTS

(wish fulfillment?)

Well we are being asked not to hammer on this one too hard, so I'll just say that what Harrizier here is saying is kind of funny to me, because I've seen it in a lot of other people's writing. Or at least something similar, where there's this immense lengthy rationalization towards whatever the hell random shiny object or inane act people had already decided on doing. I had thought it was just a sign of bad writing or perhaps bad parenting, but I suppose it may be a sign instead of reading HP:MOR.

What would have been both more honest-seeming, and perhaps a better moment of social manipulation, would be if Harry had said with a hitch in his throat, 'well i mean, if someone had had something like this for my birth mum-- maybe--'

# ¿ Mar 4, 2015 20:13

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SSNeoman posted:

Holy poo poo stop it, you little poo poo!
Why does everything have to be a problem for this kid?

He had to get those character points somewhere.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2015 06:56

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I have to say he's getting across McGonagal pretty well, in that she is caught between her charitable desire to help a lost child become a member of his rightful society, and her increasing awareness that he appears to be the Antichrist.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2015 06:14

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Mikl posted:

Maybe I missed something: what are McGonagall's secrets that Harry is threatening not to keep? Is there something specific, or is just "If I find out your secrets, I won't be under any obligation to not blab them around"?

Harry Otter here has realized that probably the Dark Lord is still around in some way, or at least that there's evidence of that, based on McGonagall's reaction. Since she is for some reason not being completely open and trusting to this eleven year old who is, from an external perspective, a pedant with minimal social graces yet a huge amount of book learning, he is resorting to blackmail in order to rationally and completely obtain exactly what he wants.

Harry does not seem to be interested in a rational approach to things - a purely rational approach to things would be to say "I'm sorry, Professor, this is all really shocking," and then chat her up in privacy in some form.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2015 14:58

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petrol blue posted:

To be exactingly fair: this Harry is closer to a real Rationalist than Rowling's Harry is to someone kept in a cupboard under the stairs:

Yud doesn't accept your argument that Rowling was writing a kids' adventure story and not a torture/horror story.

To be fair I don't believe Harry was literally being confined in that space full time, but rather it was his room, and inadequate as such. "Not having your own bedroom," which probably not good for a small child, is hardly necessarily going to produce psycho monkey syndrome.

The negativity of his home environment came from his foster family being boorish and overbearing, not literally starving him or confining him in a cage like a lab monkey.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2015 20:49

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If he loses the Harry Potter angle he has nothing, though; he just has a derivative story in which a smug little kid out-foxes ancient wizards using the power of Bayesian logic. While he could self publish it, obviously, I doubt he'd get an actual book deal, especially given that his entire work here is 50% longer than the Lord of the Rings.

e: Also I think Chapter 7 is the one where a certain character drops a certain line which would probably be lethal to the Harry Potter IP if published as some kind of extended/alternate universe work.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2015 23:05

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quote:

"I can understand your point of view," Professor McGonagall said eventually.

This is a moment of genuinely good writing. What induced it was not

# ¿ Mar 11, 2015 04:45

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anilEhilated posted:

That's it though: he doesn't want to be treated as an equal, he seems to see himself as more of a prophetic "everyone should listen to me because I am always right and you need to be amazed" thing.

He wants to be treated like an equal in all the ways he wants, while being deferred to in all the ways he wants. Probably varying from minute to minute. The Harry in this story seems like a dangerously unstable maniac.

# ¿ Mar 11, 2015 21:33

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Harry, being a megalomaniac, has (correctly) identified that Draco is more politically connected and potentially influential than some rando. As his goal is to acquire power over others, obviously he will cultivate that, rather than genuine friendships.

What do you think this is, a children's story?

# ¿ Mar 16, 2015 09:57

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chrisoya posted:

Don't worry, I'm sure this is the edited version.

Imagine what it takes to persuade Yudkowsky to edit.

It ain't.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2015 19:01

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He actually confesses the superiority of tech billionaires over himself.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 00:25

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Night10194 posted:

I've said it before, but this is the way cheap, bad sci-fi/fantasy authors write 'smart' characters. They give them the script.

Big Yud apparently had multiple classifications of smart people and helpful advice on how to write intelligent characters. "Helpful."

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 02:57

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Not be friends with the powerful and wealthy person? Don't be ridiculous!

Tragically this is probably pretty good survival advice. :negative:

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 07:11

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Surely, rationally speaking, engaging with Draco Malfoy and using his political connections and resources would far outweigh any mere rapes or murders Draco does along the way, out of boredom or pique. The greater good and all that.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 21:45

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Based on his slobbering of tech CEOs, this is Yud's plan.

Also, "surprise sex." Really.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 03:58

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Arcsquad12 posted:

I like how he offers a backhanded insult at the people who called him out for being a horrible poo poo. "Oh yeah, this chapter wasn't racist, but about racism! But I've fixed it now for the grognards who obviously didn't get the social commentary, losers."

And yet, we're the centers of "sneer culture."

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 04:24

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Legacyspy posted:

Do those of us who like hpmor, we can find these redeeming factors in it that other people don't? Relatable goals, badassery, humanity, struggle with failures. I see all of that in hpmor. I think that last line though touches on something though. I could be wrong, but feel like a lot of people don't like Harry because he doesn't respect his "place" and people find that upsetting. See his treatment of Mcgonagall, Dumbeldore etc... The "better-than-thou". Like, clearly Harry is wrong to think that Dumbledore is some outdated fool, or is wrong the way he blackmails Mcgonagall, Or the way he treats her when shopping for the suitcase. He is talking down to her. But it doesn't bother me. But other people find this very upsetting?

It isn't that he 'doesn't respect his place,' it's that he's being presented as this rationalist supermind but he's actually acting like Artemis Fowl or some kind of Randian ubermensch. It makes him seem like an intelligent but barely hinged maniac rather than some kind of uber-rationalist super-optimizer. You could use this as a lesson on how mere scientific rational thinking does not in any way guarantee you won't be a shithead.

It makes Harry Potter both a completely different character (which could be fine) and shittily composed (which is not). You could probably keep similar beats here without extensive internal monologues or quirky asides aping Pratchett.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 04:36

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Legacyspy posted:

Also why is his behavior so upsetting that this term keeps getting used? I want to understand why Harry is so upsetting to people. Repeatability saying he is smug or a douche... just tells me that his behavior is upsetting to you. It doesn't explain why that is the case.

It seems like your goal is to get people to say "I am upset by the behavior of the character in the lovely fanfiction being roasted."

Personally, I think it's funny. I am only annoyed when this poo poo gets cited, yes, like it's Dianetics or something.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 08:46

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Harry isn't behaving as our common sense would tell us to, though. Or at least, I would hope not. Harry is acting like he's a knowing agent in some RPG where he's figured out a money cheat and is planning ahead for when he has to go to the high level dungeons. It's like he's planning a speedrun through his school when he's ten years old. That poo poo is weird.

You could have kept a similar beat structure that went something more like this:

* Harry finds out he's a wizzard, establish his skepticism and require a test; have him go "HOLY SHITBUCKETS" when magic becomes undeniable
* He's full of dumbass questions in the shopping trip, demonstrating his childish enthusiasm and perhaps trepidation; include a couple of insightful ones ("is magic bad for your soul, you know, like they say at church? not that I believe in church, but I didn't believe in magic either", possibly foreshadowing some limitations). For bonus points have McGonagall be at least broadly conversant with muggle science. Perhaps Harry can explain some fine detail to her, pleasing her with his cleverness.
* Have him take out a large sum and buy a lot of dumb poo poo along with his school supplies, giving you a small arsenal of random items and obscure books which provide plot progress fuel later in the narrative. You can show how clever Harry is by having him use some novelty item as the centerpiece of some contraption or other, solving a problem.
* On the train you can still have him do a lengthy chat with Draco but have him sidle away and into the Weasley Zone after Draco starts theorycrafting his rape, and possibly not have Harry editorialize internally about how only his pure and wise culture is free from the abuse of the powerless by the powerful. If necessary have him make some cordial apology if you want to have him interact more peacefully with Li'l D later.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 18:32

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Frankly if I were faced with a world where there were magic and wizards, and magic wasn't entirely some inherited trait, I'd focus on reforming the curriculum of magic instruction and getting it as widespread as possible. That would do a lot more than most scientific interventions other than "regular handwashing and principles of sewage draining."

# ¿ Mar 20, 2015 18:58

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Night10194 posted:

Really, whenever you see someone talking about how the enlightenment is the source of all that's good and holy forever, you should get some warning flags up because odds are good you're in for a spiel about how 'those people' never had an equivalent.

It seems as if, if you were somehow really invested in making science into a religion, you could claim it as a fundamental sea change that would make things like the Arabic astronomers and math dudes into virtuous pagans. That wouldn't necessarily be inherently ethnocentric - or at least, would only be as ethnocentric as Christianity.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 09:23

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Night10194 posted:

Yeah. I was also reading about ancient China and Confucius at the time. It was kind of hilarious to have a guy tell me with a straight face that this was the first time anyone had ever considered this. He also told me Thomas Paine was the first time anyone had ever asked 'Hey, if God is all powerful, why do bad things happen to good people?'

I wrote my Master's Thesis on the Book of Job. That question's been asked as long as there's been monotheism.

I gather the Chinese kind of stumped racists for a while because while they were clearly squat heathens in thrall to Satan, they'd also built a civilization that clearly rivaled Rome and was in many ways obviously preferable to the average of European civilization. Fortunately for them the sewage got better back home and the Chinese collapsed under British attack, but boy that must've been a squeaker!

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 18:04

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Tunicate posted:

Speaking of which, you really should watch The Mask of Fu Machu.

The cultural changes over the last fifty years have totally inverted who you see as the hero and the villain.

Hell, this happened with normal films. I saw a movie in film class which was clearly meant to be showing this tormented white guy being stuck with the fallout from his affair with a villainous Chinese woman, except it came off as "this white guy abandoned his Chinese wife and she legitimately wants to get back at him."

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 23:12

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Legacyspy posted:

So, first of all it was raised by Nessus, not me, that said Harry is like Artemis. I could remember some similarity so I rolled with. However I haven't read any Artemis Fowl books in at least 10 years, so IDK. So if you want to argue whether or not Harry is like Artemis fowl, argue with Nessus, he clearly does.

Second of all, to those of you saying that Harry Potter was intended to be a paragon of rationality I literally just asked Eliezer:

So clearly Harry isn't supposed to be "High King of Rational Mountain".

See above.

How was Harry's blackmail going to ruin McGongal's life? His Blackmail consisted of "If you don't tell me the truth, I'll go ask questions elsewhere" which I think is a perfectly fine thing to say when the truth is about whether or not the Dark Lord who killed your parents, and tried to kill you, is still alive.

Your last paragraph I agree with, except that behavior doesn't bother me, I think we were meant to like him, I like him, and many others do. If he was a real-person I probably wouldn't like interacting with him though.

How so?

Naw. I have two motivations. I wanted to understand why people dislike Harry so much, and initially people were going "He is infuriating because he is irritating" which doesn't explain much, there have been better explanations since then. The second is that I honestly like hpmor & Eliezer. I'd rate it a 7/10 and I do not think the hate against Eliezer is warranted. I think a lot of stems from people not understanding he writes (due to little fault of his). Like the guy on the first page who, when speaking of the torture vs dust specks says "3^^^3 is the same thing as 3^3^3^3" despite the fact that the very post where Eliezer raised the discussion, he explained the notation before even getting to the torture & dust specks. I don't think this guy is at fault for this. He probably got this from some one else. I'm just using this as a really simple example of how the people who mock Eliezer's writing don't even understand basic things hes written and are mocking him from a position of ignorance. Similarly I don't think "friendly A.I" is some sort of crazy idea. It seems pretty reasonable. It is basically: "Are there solutions to problems where the solutions are so complex we can't understand everything about the solution? If yes, how do we build something that will give solutions to problems that won't provide solutions that will conflict with other things we care about?"

I think you should buy Big Yud an account. I'd love to have him come in and explain to us about AI Jesus.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2015 07:59

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petrol blue posted:

Yeah, the 'position of ignorance' line probably wasn't a good move, Legacyspy, goons like physics and ai almost as much as Mt. Dew.

Am I reading it right that the Friendly AI should have human values and responses? Because that would imply Yud believes that humans are good to each other and would never, say, try to wipe out a group they consider inferior.

Also, can someone link to the lesswrong thread, please?

Here you go, buddy! http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3627012

The idea is that the AI is going to inevitably become God, so it is the most important thing ever to make sure that when the computer inevitably becomes Literally God, we make sure it's a nice friendly New Testament God who cares for us, rather than an Old Testament God who will send us all to Robot Hell.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 00:31

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Legacyspy posted:

This is what I mean. If Nessus is just being sarcastic or w.e that is fine. But if he honestly thinks that friendly A.I is a worry over A.I torturing us... then he doesn't understand what, right or wrong, Eliezer is talking about. Its a worry that the A.I, in pursuit of the goals we gave it, may have unintended consequences that could be bad for us. This can be as simple as being a lovely A.I that when asked "How do we get rid of insects eating our sugar cane crop" says "introduce the cane toad" not understanding that the consequences of cane toad infestation will be far more annoying than the insects eating our crops. Or an A.I that does for some reason we can't couldn't have foreseen decide to "kill all humans" in pursuit of its goals. I think this is unlikely but I don't think the idea of "How do we get an A.I to recommend courses of actions that take into account the complex values we have (like not liking a cane toad infestation) is a useful one. Whether Eliezer is actually doing anything useful on this front, I can't tell. But afaik hes also one of the few people even talking about it.

The Nessus believes that AI of the near-term future will largely be a limited assistant and will probably only cause us harm when it crashes the stock market, as has already nearly happened. The Nessus further believes that for the scenario you outline, you essentially assume the AI is going to be as much of a schmuck as humans, which seems like a likely outcome. Humans are pretty stupid, and genetically engineering ourselves to do math problems better will not stop us from being dumbasses.

The Nessus further believes this entire friendly AI whatever-the-hell involves numerous presuppositions which beg the question. (Example: Why is there only one AI? Presumably there would be prototypes. Example 2: What if the AIs get into fights? Example 3: What if the AIs discover that fantasy magic nanotechnology is actually impossible?)

The Nessus expects if the AI kills us all, it will be because some rich dumbass put it in charge of something important in order to lay off some trained humans and juice up his (or her, but let's be real: his) bonus.

The Nessus also thinks these people have managed to reinvent apocalyptic Christianity with hilarious precision, and that's pretty funny. Death is certain (though it is good to progress science to make it come later, with less pain and disability on the way). The computer will not save you.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2015 09:20

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platedlizard posted:

Nah, because torture is a deliberate act of evil and accidents/eye injuries from dust specks aren't. Accidentally hitting a child on the road because something interfered with your vision sucks for you and the child, but it's isn't the same level of awful as taking that kid and torturing them for 50 years. A person has to be a real rear end in a top hat to think they are at all comparable imo

What I also notice is that this 3^^^^3 figure or whatever is so ridiculously huge that it becomes absurd, and I think it's because Yud realizes that if you did the numbers for any semi-sane number, such as "every human who's ever lived" (which would probably be a hundred billion tops?) or "all the inhabitants of a thousand Earths" (which we could probably top out at ten trillion), the effects would be meaningless.

What I also don't understand is what the hell this is supposed to prove, exactly. Like what's the theological point of the dust-speck thing? The Nessus seeks to understand this foolishness.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2015 18:40

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Cycloneman posted:

The solution to this "problem" - that choosing dust specks over torture is "inconsistent" with choosing low possibility of death over minor inconvenience - is that the situations are not analogous at all. By avoiding torture I am achieving a terminal value (fairness) that I am not achieving by avoiding minor risks.

If you ignore all morality except mindless beep-boop happy unit utilons, then, yes, the dust speck/torture problem is solved by picking torture. But there's plenty of terminal values humans have besides maximizing the number of beep-boop happy unit utilons, such as an equitable distribution of goods and evils. The torture solution to the torture/dust speck problem is very much not an equitable distribution of goods and evils; the dust speck solution is.

But that makes everything way more complex. What if the Godputer can't understand that, despite being God!?

# ¿ Mar 26, 2015 20:44

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# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 07:42

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SolTerrasa posted:

This is why Yudkowsky has self-published a bunch of "machine ethics papers", which extend utility into the "coherent extrapolated volition". Google the phrase and read the paper if you want, but he wants God to figure out what the best possible version of all humans would want, collectively, and do that, rather than simply adding up utilons. This has, somewhat surprisingly, not caused him to change his belief re: torture v dust.

Statistically speaking this means we would get the vision of happiness and contentment from rural farmers in the Third World. Or rural farmers generally if we're extending this to all of historical humanity. I don't think these folks usually deal with volcano bases full of catgirls.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2015 21:48

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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