Porsche Thread: If you can't afford two, you can't afford one

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Porsche Thread: If you can't afford two, you can't afford one

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kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

There was a 997 GTS that was pretty cheap, and I realized why when I saw its blood red steering wheel. The guy had picked red as the accent color, and it ruined the interior.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2015 17:01

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 19:40

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Pr0kjayhawk posted:

Essentially, you won't miss the 10hp from the 997.1 C2S to the 997.2 C2. Bonus option for ventilated seats, updated electronics, and super fancy headlights that turn with the steering wheel. My Spyder had the dynamic headlights, it's amazingly helpful at night.

Ah, so you were the one with the Spyder. I was asking around a few months ago when I was shopping to try to get your impressions, mostly over whether the Spyder was worth it over later 987s. The top didn't bother me, but I didn't know if the rest of the improvements added up to a significantly different experience than the normal cars, or now to 981s.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2015 19:25

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Pr0kjayhawk posted:

In a word, yes. It didn't have the power it needed but I'm surprised Porsche allowed it to be so good. It was definitely a car that was greater than the sum of its parts. If you got it in the ideal spec you were in the low 2800lb range. It came with the GT2 buckets, aluminum panels, the lightest 19" wheels Porsche made at the time, and bespoke bodywork. I read that the suspension package used on the Spyder was the first iteration of what became the X73 suspension package (lower, non-adjustable, lighter) on the 981. That was really the piece that set the Spyder apart, the suspension was so well tuned.

I'd get another Spyder before I'd get a 981 that wasn't a GT4. It was a very special car.

Of all the cars I test drove in this last round, it was one that stood out as very obviously well-tuned and a strong communicator. I plan to get one at some point down the road, as long as prices stay sane on them.
If the one I drove had been white and not silver, I think I would have done it. The only things I didn't like were the big steering wheel and the rubbery shifter.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2015 07:53

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Jack Baruth weighed in on the Singer phenomenon:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/no-fixed-abode-singer-song-sixpence/

I mostly feel the same way, but he really took it too far with the 2-Porsche ownership appeal to authority. I kinda made me want to buy two just to comment.
There was a mix of opinions in the chat thread about what if any obligations an owner has to the perceived car enthusiast community over a car.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2015 10:49

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Encor3 posted:

That's actually a pretty good deal. The listing states Automatic but it's clearly a 6 speed manual from the pictures.
Lets not forget it's still a 911, let the haters hate.

You're right, but you linked the wrong one: http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/ctd/5317067591.html

# ¿ Nov 17, 2015 17:09

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Tremek posted:

While I'd drive a 996 Turbo, the 996 Carrera is outclassed in just about every way by very pedestrian stuff at the same price point today.

15k is still pretty cheap though. What's the competition -- slightly newer Boxster, S2000, fairly junky C5? Ignore the 4 seater part.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2015 21:05

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

I dunno; of those cars, only the E92 and C5 fit the handling criteria that a 996 buyer might be looking for, and even then, it's not quite the same. They might be just as fast for fun driving, but I know I wouldn't cross shop a Terminator or GTO against a 996.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2015 22:10

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

M_Gargantua posted:

I went with the 996TT above all of those for one primary reason. Front engine cars have awful sight lines. Every single one i've ever driven feels like i'm wearing blinders. In a 996 you have great front and peripheral vision, and a much comfier interior.

Given how low you sit in sports cars, I've never felt like I could see over the front well that well. The AW11 is really the only MR car I've driven that can beat that rule by virtue of how short its snout is.
Any old car beats any new car for A-pillars.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2015 03:38

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Let's get to the very bottom of the 944 heap:

1983 base. No cat, fuel gauge didn't work, that harness in the engine bay kept getting loose and shutting off the motor, the sunroof leaked like crazy, leading me to drill holes in the pan to drain the water out.

Sold working to another goon for $1250. I wonder if there's been a running Porsche sold for less in recent times.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2015 08:25

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Motronic posted:

I'd drive it. It's like a post-apocalyptic 944.

Ninja edit: are you/is that in the US? I didn't think they were imported until MY84.

Yeah, US. Mass, hence those rally looking snow tires.
Wikipedia shows that even the MY1982 had a US spec motor, though I'm not sure how accurate that is. Afaik, it was an '83.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2015 17:35

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

I'd say the 2 accidents are more of a non-starter than (still scary) worries that another party will find issues with the car.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2016 00:37

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

fknlo, keep an eye on the price of this 996 Turbo:
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2002-porsche-911-turbo/

# ¿ Mar 3, 2016 06:45

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

M_Gargantua posted:

That color scheme just begs to be left in piece in a junk yard. Put it out of its misery.

I saw a 997 GTS that was silver on the outside (ok, boring, but whatever) and blood red interior and even red accents on the steering wheel :gonk:

It was only $72k, but it'd have to be lower for me to bite on it.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2016 06:54

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

fknlo posted:

What did it start at? It's up to $37k now which is still a pretty reasonable price, especially with some of the preventative maintenance stuff done. Unfortunately for me, I'm trying to transfer to Denver which has changed my potential car buying plans. I still really want one but can't justify spending that much money if I'm going to end up moving in the not too distant future

I wanna say 30.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2016 19:14

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Another 996 Turbo finished at 35.5k: http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-porsche-911-turbo/

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 22:42

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

BlackMK4 posted:

Salvage title.

Yeah, I should have qualified. I'm not sure if water damage makes me feel more or less nervous than body damage. Probably more.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 22:55

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Motronic is the person to hear from.
One of the problems mine had was the cam position sensor harness would get slightly loose; going over bumps would sometimes interrupt the signal and kill the motor. The solution is apparently to zip tie the hell out of the harness to its mounting bracket.

# ¿ Apr 18, 2016 07:13

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Another 996TT sold: http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-porsche-911996-twin-turbo-coupe/
36.5k with this for the story: An inspection and oil change from Zuffenhausen Porsche in Arizona was performed in August 2015, and a low �over rev� incident report has been provided

# ¿ Apr 21, 2016 21:54

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Residency Evil posted:

http://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-marketplace/930622-boxster-spyder-fs.html

I'm finding it tough to price this. Perfect options, but the mileage is quite high. What would be a decent price on this?

I think I've seen them for in the mid 40s, which is about where I'd want that one.
That said, you live in a place where it almost never rains? That top is kind of a drag to operate, even if you get it down to a minute.

# ¿ May 7, 2016 06:35

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

I would not buy that car if I couldn't drive it with the top off 90% of the time. I'd offer 43.

# ¿ May 7, 2016 20:19

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

I would buy it if it looked in very good shape. Some cars have a lot of interior wear by 50k, and that's all I'd be concerned about. 50k on the motor doesn't bother me.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2016 19:01

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Motronic posted:

The flip up lights are amazingly robust on these cars.

I was amazed at the size of the rod that actuates the popping. At first it seems a bit classic German overengineering, but thinking about how FCA would use the cheapest plastic in the same situation, I can appreciate how well it's held up.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2016 16:45

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Residency Evil posted:

Do it. There's a 981 S on Rennlist I'm eyeing that comes with a set of winter tires but I have zero free weekends until the end of October. By that time I might as well wait for spring.

Get this instead: https://www.pca.org/classified-ad/316599

# ¿ Aug 25, 2016 21:04

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Residency Evil posted:

Pics of the one I'm getting. I like the interior .

Sad that you're not getting a Spyder, but that car will obviously be a better driver.

# ¿ Sep 2, 2016 06:24

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-porsche-gt3/

# ¿ Sep 9, 2016 04:58

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

That 959 did not break reserve at 810k. That buyer isn't out there this time around.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 22:12

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Go with a V8 in the front: http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1992-porsche-965/

# ¿ Sep 30, 2016 18:10

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

I've been intrigued ever since I saw a video of a lime green 944 with an LS3 mixing it up on a road course with Corvettes. Can't find the video after 10min of trying

# ¿ Sep 30, 2016 19:21

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

This is scary in an I have no idea how likely this could be way:
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2002-porsche-boxster/
Before seeing this, If I knew a car already had the LNE IMS, I would be confident it would hold up.
Wonder if the oil would have shown shavings or excess metal.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2016 23:06

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

slidebite posted:

I am certainly not convinced by a longshot that most of the IMS cures were any better than stock.
E:ceramic bearings are not some panacea for issues and are really only appropriate for very specific applications/problems.

Regarding that Boxster with the failed IMS bearing -- BaT took the auction offline, as LNE offered to repair it for the seller at a discount.

A couple of points:
- LNE makes various grade IMS Retrofit kits and an IMS Solution
- the Retrofit kit requires an ok engine and IMS before installing. It shouldn't be used with an IMS that has already failed
- the Classic Retrofit kit's bearing isn't lifetime, and is supposed to be serviced 4yr/50k mi. This kit was designed as a stopgap for dealers who wanted something in inventory for the IMS issue
- the IMS Solution is permanent
I wasn't aware of the distinction, and it seems like the seller got burned by that, too. His shop diagnosed a failed bearing and still put on a Retrofit kit.

So even though the car was repaired in a way that LNE doesn't regard as proper, they're gonna help the seller out.

Direct :sperg: quotes:

LNE posted:

Engine needs to be properly diagnosed and all of the details surrounding the failure including everything prior back to the original installation needs to be looked into.

I personally think he should keep the car and fix it. If he simply wants the problem repaired, I�ll work something out indeed if the bearing is at fault and everything was done properly. Even if not, I�ll help out, even if I have to build the engine to cover the labor and seller pays for upgrades only (which makes the most sense). Like previously stated by others, the warranty is only 30 days for a classic single row and there were other options, one cheaper, that would have given him a two year warranty. I question any shop that would choose not to use the products that provide their customers longer warranties. Like I mentioned in a previous post, the classic single rows are special order and made to fill the requests of wholesale distributors that are behind the curve or have their own customers who don�t want to use something different.

Regardless of the 30 day warranty, I�ve had a bearing fail within the first month or 1,000 miles and sometimes it�s a few months later, but no real miles. And they were properly qualified. Simple -the bearing was defective. Cut and dry, I fixed the engine. Defective bearings don�t last very long, hence the short warranty. It gets the owner past the point where we know the bearing is good. These bearings are man made, so we can only expect there will be failures from time to time. Nobody is perfect. Certainly I�m not.

The co-developer of these kits, Flat 6 Innovations, has done over 500 installations with zero failures. In that time, they have failed 100 cars during pre-qualification. That means 1/6th of the cars in reality that go in for repair shouldn�t be fixed.

LNE posted:

To answer your question about the cost differences between say, an IMS Single Row Pro Retrofit Kit and IMS Solution. The IMS Retrofit has a service interval where the IMS Solution is permanent. Nothing to fail and it�s proven itself pretty much impervious to wear. Case in point, we had a shop forget to install the oil line. Car left the shop without the oil leak and was brought back a hundred miles later because of the obvious oil leak. The plain bearing had no wear and was perfect. Proof that the IMS is indeed submerged in oil AND that a plain bearing should have been there in the first place, like in the Mezger engine. The IMS Solution is a much more complicated part to make, costly to develop and manufacture, and was in development and testing before any other IMS product. The other problem is manufacturing capacity. We cant get the volume any higher and get the price down more. We just can�t make them fast enough � it takes 4-5 months start to finish to make a batch.

The IMS Solution does not require any drilling into the block. I would never, ever advise to drill or machine anything on a complete, assembled engine. The only modification required is to notch the bell-housing to allow the external oil feel line to be attached to the IMS flange (externally).

As far as price differences varying between shops, I see it all the time. Some shops charge $1500 and don�t do any pre-qualification nor check anything else that might need replacing. In all honesty, most cars need a dual mass flywheel, clutch, and RMS. That�s for starters.

The water pump needs to be replaced every 4 years or 50k (whichever comes first) and a low temperature thermostat installed. Only genuine Porsche for the pump!

The AOS can be tested with a manometer. Easy check.

Cylinders are a whole different ball game. The 3.2 Boxster is the least likely to have problems, probably tied with the 2.7 Boxster and Cayman engines. If you have a compression and leakdown test done and it looks good, I�m satisfied with that, as long as there are no ticking noises coming from the engine. Many mis-diagnose this as lifters � it�s cylinder issues 99% of the time.

Cylinders score and go out of round really bad. I�ve seen them .015″ out of round on an engine that ran just fine other than really bad ticking. FYI, we�ve verified that the cylinder bore material is very hard � high silicon and it contaminates the oil and will guaranteed damage the IMS bearing and even score an IMS Solution plain bearing. It�s analogous to the cash for clunkers liquid used to kill engines, just in small doses.

To check for cylinder issues, you have to put each cylinder at BDC and borescope each one to look for scoring. This is most prevalent on any of the engines with forged pistons � 3.4, 3.6, 3.8. Start on bank 2 � cylinders 4, 5, and 6. If there is no scoring there, you won�t find it on the other side.

It�s hard to just check by inspecting plugs though � you can�t read these as the low tension rings allow for high oil consumption in normal operation. Bore scope is the only true test for cylinder integrity.

If you add up all the testing and resulant parts that get changed in the process, it�s easy to see how we get IMS jobs that run $6-8k when we address everything that is potentially wrong. That�s the only way to be 100% sure that you won�t have a problem and why shops like Flat 6 Innovations charge so much (and have zero failures).

Lastly, to answer your question about failures, I�d venture to say since 2007 we have had maybe 10-15 failures, all classic single row, but that have failed within the first month and 1,000 miles, maybe two or three.

I know right off the top of my head 5 or 6 were all done by the same shop and same tech (which they fired) when they found he was using a zip gun to tighten the center nut of the bearing on the install tool used to drive in the bearing. He pretty much set those up for failure. We actually changed the installation tool so that you couldn�t put the nut on to prevent anyone else from making that mistake ever again.

The last big thing that takes these bearings out is a failure of the crank to ims tensioner paddle, which are known to break in half. Usually the plastic wear pin breaks off, in essence exceeding the mechanical ability of the chain tensioner to tension the paddle and chain, causing it to flap uncontrollably. It�s a matter of time of what goes next. If it�s a single row bearing, the bearing goes. If it�s a dual row bearing, the paddle or even the IMS shaft itself will go (the sprocket falling off the shaft completely).

The other failures fall into the categories of no pre-qualification leaving questions as to the integrity of the engine and even some where the original bearing had failed or was failing. Lack of registration makes this worst as we don�t have the original bearing to prove either way conclusively if the original bearing was good or not.

If there is any one constant, there are more shops out there skirting the edge of doing what�s right by the customer or just getting the customer in and out of the door as quickly as possible. Anytime you do mechanical work on a car, it must be taken seriously, especially with the M96 engine.

There has never been a failure of a Dual Row, Single Row Pro, or IMS Solution.

LNE posted:

Everyone here asked for full disclosure. Here goes. My staff is well trained and do their jobs as instructed. We did receive a call from his Porsche dealership and there were notes taken and recorded in our system regarding this exact car and failure report:

Dennis called this morning saying that a 2002 Boxster that they did an IMS Retrofit job to came back with a failed Classic Single Row Retrofit Kit (106-08.2). I went over the procedure with him and collected all the information. The job was done in April 2012 with 16,640mi and when it arrived to the shop today it had 29,776mi. Not a daily driver at all. Dennis did send pictures and I also requested a work order when the job was done and have not received that. So history of maintenance is unknown. They did register the bearing for warranty but I told Dennis that the warranty is for 30 days and if it was a defective bearing it would have failed within the first 30 days or 1,000mi. I also let him know that with the retrofit kits there are intervals. Informed him that the 106-08.2 interval is 4yrs/50,000mi, whatever comes first. Looking into the warranty database it does state that the bearing returned to us was described as rough, I explained that usually means that there is debris in the bearing and that is a sign of an IMS bearing failing.

John 8/25/2016

The original bearing as submitted was failing. As part of our pre-qualification procedure, it shouldn�t have been replaced.

We also asked for more documentation than the pictures with the bearing flange removed and those were not received.

Hard to read, but lnengine's comments in the thread have got to be one of the most authoritative discourses on the issue:
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2002-porsche-boxster/

e: also, holy poo poo:
FYI, we�ve verified that the cylinder bore material is very hard � high silicon and it contaminates the oil and will guaranteed damage the IMS bearing and even score an IMS Solution plain bearing. It�s analogous to the cash for clunkers liquid used to kill engines, just in small doses.

kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 12, 2016

# ¿ Oct 12, 2016 21:47

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

slidebite posted:

Furthermore, and this might be a bigger thing than most give credit to, even with "trained" technicians, you run a very real risk of damaging any bearing on install, especially a rolling element bearing in an awkward location. I literally cannot say how many times I've had people bring me a failed bearing that had only been running for a short while and I can either see evidence of terrible mounting OR when I ask them how they mounted them, they describe textbook examples of at least a few things of what not to do.

It seems like LNE is at least aware that installation is critical, though they're still letting any shop out there do the work:

"tech (which they fired) when they found he was using a zip gun to tighten the center nut of the bearing on the install tool used to drive in the bearing. He pretty much set those up for failure. We actually changed the installation tool so that you couldn�t put the nut on to prevent anyone else from making that mistake ever again."

I'm guessing the tool amounts a cylinder or something to guide and press the bearing on?

# ¿ Oct 14, 2016 02:03

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Interesting... build, but so many problems.
whoops, forgot to link. That made this post so much more pointless.
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/cto/5864760766.html

kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Nov 7, 2016

# ¿ Nov 7, 2016 17:05

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Spicy: http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-porsche-911-3/

# ¿ Nov 11, 2016 03:25

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Jymmybob posted:

I don't really understand why it's on BaT since it's about average and there's some really awesome cars out there but good for him since he's going to get like 10% over normal going by what other 996s recently got there.

Yeah, there's definitely a specific aesthetic they seem to like for each brand. For Porsche, it leans toward the Singer look:
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-porsche-9111973-rsr-recreation/

# ¿ Nov 13, 2016 02:37

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

BlackMK4 posted:

I really hope these stay affordable for another 3-5yr.

What is this? Highly modded air-cooleds? Probably will, compared to cars with stock provenance.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2016 07:32

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

slidebite posted:

I gave the cars a complete cleaning in the garage today which colminated in me actually climbing into the "back seat" of the 911. I am sure this is a complete surprise but 5'11 @ 230lb doesn't fit very well. I would have looked like I was in a clown car.

Once, I gave two SVPs at work a ride to our data center for some sort of meeting in my 944.
On the way out, the 5'8" 150lb guy was complaining from the back and demanding that the other guy sit back there, which he agreed to.
On the way back, the 6'2" 200lb guy was like "oh my god, no one told me the back seat was like this. This isn't right."

Serves both of them right for making me drive :colbert:

# ¿ Nov 14, 2016 09:27

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Wait, so isn't this a good price by your estimate?:
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-porsche-911-3/

# ¿ Nov 18, 2016 04:19

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Jymmybob posted:

It was a very good price and I was in for 32k but since BaT actually charges your credit card for the entire 5% premium when you bid I missed out since I couldn't re-bid on my phone fast enough after clearing the fraud alert from VISA. I'm still mad about it. It's pretty much exactly where it should be for a good 996TT with solid mods at ~32250.

Welp, good to know if/when I see that must have car on there (Viper Green 944 with an LS swap).

# ¿ Nov 18, 2016 05:58

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Dang, this went for a lot more than I was expecting: http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-porsche-9111973-rsr-recreation/

# ¿ Nov 18, 2016 23:09

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 19:40

kimbo305: Jun 9, 2007; actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Jymmybob posted:

996TT hunt complete, just did a thing http://www.ebay.com/itm/172411960039

"ball bearing turbochargers"
Give thanks :911:

blk posted:

I'm not interested in investing money/time in a 944, but I've always wondered how they drive compared to a BRZ. Has anyone tried both?

A BRZ is a modern car. It feels heavy and insulated compared to an earlier manual steering rack 944.
Like if you put me in a blindfold and earmuffs, led me to a skidpad, and gave me 10s each on a 944, a BRZ, and a new Civic, I would have much more trouble telling the newer cars apart.

That's a pretty artificial test, but I guess what it gets at is that the controls (skinny big wheel, floor-hinged pedals with nice heel-toe setup) and interior do a make a difference in how I perceive a car drives.
The 944 just feels like a more delicate instrument, and 70% of that is from the way the wheel grips and the big throw of its shifter.

I had a $2000 944, and I would think about it again if that deal came up.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2016 06:38

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Porsche Thread: If you can't afford two, you can't afford one

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