World of Darkness Megathread: Curse of the Were-Poster

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Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

So, if Changling is Abuse, and Demon is Paranoia, what's Beast? Psychopathy?

# ¿ Apr 14, 2015 06:43

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 03:50

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Mors Rattus posted:

*Existential horror at the hands of order so perfect that makes no sense and has no compassion*

See, this is cool. This is a lot cooler than 'I'm a monster who does terrible things but it is the HEROES who are Bad!'

I feel there's a tendency, sometimes, to forget that 'It loving eats people.' is really enough of a reason for people to want to band together and destroy or defeat something.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2015 20:40

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Mors Rattus posted:

I could write one of these for Beast if you like.

I'm still trying to figure out what theme it's going for, so that would be interesting.

I have a weird relationship with the WoD in that I usually don't like what it comes up with, but what it has usually inspires some other idea that I end up really enjoying writing or running. There's usually a theme in there somewhere that I can get excited about, and I'm curious.

For myself, though, on hearing about Beast what comes to mind would be a game about the intimacy between rivals and the prison of stories. Make Beasts former Heroes whose defining, life-shaping struggle ended in victory and who fill the empty spot in their soul by becoming what they alone fought and understood, a new link in the eternal chain of legends who will create their own hero in turn and drive them to a fated and terrible conflict that solves nothing.

Have the player actually create their Hero, make their own nemesis, and climax in the conflict between the two where either the Hero kills the Beast and becomes the new PC (and the new monster) or the Beast destroys its Hero and awaits a new rival to grow its legend further.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Apr 14, 2015

# ¿ Apr 14, 2015 20:45

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

So basically, if you try to shirk being a monster, other people are going to be taken and made into monsters?

# ¿ Apr 14, 2015 21:36

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Mors Rattus posted:

That's certainly how I see Heroes. You're not monstering enough, so the monster part of you is heading out there and making things that will either force you to monster or will monster in your place.

So basically, you have the choice of destroying lives to be a monster, or destroying lives by trying not to be, and the tension is that the former feels so good that you're not sure if the latter is just the lie you're telling yourself to justify the horrible things you do. I could work with that.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2015 21:41

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

bewilderment posted:

This has probably already been done before but - isn't the whole 'the player character is a monster that unconsciously causes people to be repulsed by them and come at them with torch and pitchforks' something that Promethean already does?

Also, aren't Prometheans, while dangerous to the area around them because of their nature, not necessarily malicious in the least? And thus have more room for variety?

# ¿ Apr 16, 2015 06:51

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Yawgmoth posted:

Make a Beast with these powers, then a Hero shows up with the Six-Demon Bag to fight you.

I don't see why this is in any way an undesirable outcome.

I was thinking more, and I think maybe they're going at this from the wrong direction for the general feel of 'there must always be a monster'. Satiety feels more like the edgy 'THE HUNGER IS IN YOU' kind of thing, rather than 'You are an embodiment of the horrors we still tell stories about and tell ourselves don't exist anymore'. Maybe the better idea would be playing as the Soul, and whatever human you're manifesting in is just a temporary host, a puppet in pursuit of your Legend instead of your hunger. If he or she gets killed by a hero, so what? There are plenty more darker souls to replace and keep going. As long as people remember you, as long as people fear what was behind that killer's eyes, the Soul survives and moves on. Only by being forgotten will you die, but at the same time, fame draws greater and greater heroes to kill the beast.

Basically, make your power stat how much your legacy scares the piss out of people and how great of foes it draws, escalating things as you engage in acts of infamy and spread fear until it creates someone who can kill your current host or face down your Soul manifest in its lair, and you find a new host to keep the story going...if people remember you. That way, refusing to engage in Monstering risks killing you by being forgotten, rather than sending your soul out to go make some self-righteous pricks who are just as bad as you.

The Heroes have to be a real threat, and a real part of the story, not just strawmen to take apart, or you lose all conflict, like the posters above have said.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 16, 2015

# ¿ Apr 16, 2015 19:45

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Well, obviously. Just the basic concept of mythologized conflicts playing out in the back alleyways of a modern city between essentially a magical serial killer and someone who doesn't quite understand what drives them to take up the torch and hunt this horror is actually a pretty cool setup and I'm trying to think of what I'd do with it instead of 'And then the whole class clapped because I sure showed that guy for tripping into me and spilling my lunch by accident by threatening to eat his skin.'

I suppose the other reason I keep thinking on it, and this is completely counter to their goals, is because it sounds like either character would be cool to play! The horrible creature who exists by necessity of humanity's fears and creates and tests heroes, or the ordinary person drawn into myth who takes up a revolver and a flashlight to look for that hosed up monster the police can't catch that killed his brother. You could make a game from that setup where playing as either the Beast or the Hero would be fun!

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Apr 16, 2015

# ¿ Apr 16, 2015 20:04

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Hero Raising Simulator 2015 would also provide a reason for group play and interacting with other splats. You and your fellow beasts have to be a Rogue's Gallery so you can get your heroes to team up and learn life lessons as comrades and allies. Worse, other WoD poo poo keeps distracting or trying to kill them, and you have to sort of help them along from the shadows.

"Alright, guys, we gotta kill the Prince of LA." "Why?" "Because the detective's going to figure out vamps run the LAPD soon and I know the guy. He'll be on that like a fly on poo poo and if he gets distracted by vampire hunting he's never going to learn to use his family's ancestral sword."

# ¿ Apr 16, 2015 20:40

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

What about the loving World of Darkness says 'MMO'?

# ¿ Apr 17, 2015 05:48

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Mors Rattus posted:

My favorite thing about that was that it was all the fault of Ryan Dancey.

Are you loving serious. That guy again?

# ¿ Apr 17, 2015 05:52

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

My only experience playing oWoD unmodified was a Hunter game and I tell you what, killing the fuckers who pass for 'protagonists' in other lines was pure catharsis. Our GM ran it like an action movie so there weren't real risks of collateral damage and we went with the idea that 'You know, these things eat human beings and want to continue doing it, we're up for fighting back.'

I've also run Hunter myself, twice, never using the Storyteller system and modifying the setting some, but it was equally fun to use it to ask the uncomfortable questions about why it feels good to murder these things and what the hell the critters empowering you get out of the deal. I appreciate a setup that can be used for dark faustian self-reflection and/or turning your brain off and ashing some smug vampires with cool plans and explosives. I know the whole Messenger thing was dropped in New Hunter, but I'm pretty sure the general metaphor of 'Why does this feel good, what does it say about me that I'm willing to do this, what am I willing to do to win and how crazy am I going to go?' is still the main theme, yeah?

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 20:11

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Is New Hunter about as bleak as the original? I remember in the Original it was pretty clear that the Messengers weren't up to anything good either, most of your powers really didn't work very well, most of the supernatural enemies were nearly invincible and had 4 turns to your 1, and there was a strong implication you might just be schizophrenic.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 20:18

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Effectronica posted:

nHunter's sample antagonists are 1 white-hat, 2 innocents, 1 grey-hat, and 1 outright villain. The system is set up so that the best way to avoid complete insanity is to remake yourself into a psychopathic but functional serial killer.

That seems to be the case in a lot of the World of Darkness, honestly. I'm guessing the main difference is you start Hunter relatively sane, instead of beginning the game with a lust for human blood and treachery, an inbuilt urge to hunt and kill, or a completely alien mindset and an edgar suit?

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Apr 21, 2015

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 20:24

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Effectronica posted:

Teleinformatics began as a program for better profiling of slashers. Testing for the Wintergreen Process tests how well you can think like a slasher. Which is heavily implied throughout the VASCU section.

What's a slasher? Are there yet more magic serial killers in WoD?

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 22:45

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Kellsterik posted:

The idea as presented is definitely that they are intended for crossover group play. For one, they refuel their MP by being present when other supernaturals do that their own way. In terms of benefits, it's pretty on-the-nose: they can directly give dice bonuses to activating other supernatural powers.

So what's the theme there? As well as being petty assholes they're fanboys and groupies?

# ¿ Apr 22, 2015 00:34

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Luminous Obscurity posted:

Ironically, for all the talk about Heroes thinking everything is about them, I feel like a lot of the more interesting/fun ideas for Beasts come from Beats having to come to terms with the fact that its not all about them, either.

Yeah. I mean, as written right now the theme seems to be that beasts are pathetic and don't notice. A petty rear end in a top hat (or small murderer) desperately trying to be relevant in a frightening world of actual monsters. Reminds me of the Serial Killer Convention in Sandman.

# ¿ Apr 22, 2015 19:04

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Stallion Cabana posted:

Heroes versus Beasts aren't supposed to be the main conflict.

Heroes are supposed to be little distractions who think they're bigger and more important then they are that you can generally pretty easily swat aside unless they're really experienced and or you're not completely starving but not completely full either.

It's nice that they're clear that your defining antagonist is a strawman this time.

How do you set up a game about ancient mythological horrors and then go make the manifest consequences of their actions a footnote?

# ¿ Apr 22, 2015 20:02

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Daeren posted:

Becoming a Banisher is a natural and morally required reaction to discovering the plague on reality that is Wizards Being Wizards, discuss

Has there ever been a setting where it's been a genuine net positive that wizards are about? It seems like at best the good wizards just put the kibosh on the No Sense Of Right And Wrong wizards.

# ¿ May 22, 2015 01:06

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Pope Guilty posted:

The nWoD's emphasis on the fact that there's a bunch of random awful weirdness out there that doesn't fit into any categories is something that I've always loved about it.

This is definitely a good thing for a horror setting to have. There's something really satisfying about a group of supernatural shitkickers or whatnot running into something, scratching their heads, and being like 'Holy poo poo, what was that and how can we make sure we never see it again?'

# ¿ May 22, 2015 07:25

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I'm having trouble seeing how the authorial voice can see 'people who terrorize people in either petty or murderous ways' as Good and Right. Like, what does the game think makes the Beasts the good guys, exactly? Is it just that they never asked for any of this crap?

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 21:49

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

So, how does a group of Beasts work? Do you just all run around helping one another fulfill your weird monster twitches?

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 22:01

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Beast just sounds like sort of a boring waste of its concept, which is sad. Not even vile or offensive or anything, just sorta completely inconsequential and pointless.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 22:04

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I'm also still not seeing why 'I want to stop this horrific monster that exists to spread fear and devour lives' makes someone wrong. Especially when it sounds like the Beasts are also much more powerful than the Heroes, so it's rather a brave thing to try to take them on. Same for Hunters taking these things on.

Basically, there's a lot to be said for 'This thing eats people' as a justification for fighting it.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2015 22:13

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I think the funniest part about Beast is how easily this thread came up with like half a dozen interesting things that could be done with the concept of 'Your soul is a legendary monster trapped in epic conflicts whether you want it to be or not'. Like, that is an easy setup to do cool poo poo with! How do you gently caress that up so badly?

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 01:47

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

moths posted:

This whole thing about Heroes resonates with the same vibe I get from disproportionate internet shaming. Except here, the "Hero" is representative of the punching-bag persecutor oppressor who judges and harasses the poor snowflake Beast who is only doing what's in his nature, and trying to be true to himself. So yeah, no level of retaliation is inappropriate or off-limits. Except instead of doxxing him or getting him fired from his job, you have supernatural powers with which to humiliate and kill him.

It's alarmingly not self-aware.

I'm guessing the whole thing is meant as an allegory for out-groups, but the thing is, when you set up your metaphor for out-groups as a bunch of people with lethal superpowers who eat people, you suddenly make it look totally reasonable to want to fight them and stop them doing 'what's natural' to them. It's a hilariously mixed up and wrong-headed metaphor.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 06:03

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

The other thing that makes the whole 'Heroes are stupid idiots who are wrong about everything and also weak and dumb' bit so bad is that a protagonist is judged partly by their antagonist. When your splat needs its antagonists to be easily foiled, helpless, and objectively wrong, you make your protagonist look pretty loving pathetic for picking on these poor bastards. What threat do they actually pose? How do you write a story around them if they're objectively wrong and again, *easily beaten*?

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 06:30

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Pope Guilty posted:

Actually yeah, I kind of dig the idea of having a Beast in the role of that onion thing from Aqua Teen Hunger Force who seems like a bro right up until they realize he's filled the attic with dead bodies.

Look, dude just liked juice. He was willing to share!

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 06:50

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

LatwPIAT posted:

Heroes are also basically just contractually fanatical Hunters, meaning they lack a unique conceptual space. (Also, lawls, that line about Beasts asking Hunters what gives them the right to kill pulling the rug out from under the Hunter's moral worldview, as if "do we really have the right to kill something for what it is?" hasn't been pretty core to Hunters since boody Reckoning.)

There's also something hilariously stupid about 'The Beast has THE SCRIPT' All should bow before his cunning genre savvy!

I imagine the average Hunter cell just shrugging, torching the thing, and moving on to the next maneating horror.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 07:06

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Pope Guilty posted:

So if a Union or Ashwood Abbey cell targets a Beast, do they all grow neckbeards and fedoras? Under what circumstances can you want to kill a Beast without being a douchebag?

In fairness, Ashwood Abbey can't do basically anything without being a douchebag. That's their entire hat as a faction.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 07:45

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Rand Brittain posted:

I could honestly respect Beast if it just owned up to the fact that Beasts are just awful. If it was "I'm a monster who makes everyone's lives worse, and everyone wants me dead because of that, but I won't die just to please everybody else. Come at me, bro," I think you could make that work.

I mean, it works for the Slashers.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 20:18

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

kaynorr posted:

Not really, in the sense that no one considers Slashers to be a viable PC type. If you do, then you are WAY out on the edge of gaming convention. You do you, but I don't expect that kind of playstyle to have even remotely broad appeal. At least, done in a way that isn't kind of repugnant.

Oh, I meant it works for making them compelling enemies. Of course I didn't mean them as PCs. I mean admitting Beasts are horrible fuckers would at least make them more interesting to fight against.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 20:35

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Daeren posted:

I repeat myself: Dragon's Dogma Beast is probably the best way to piece together the basic elements of what we've been given into something that's actually radical, even if it'd step on Changeling's toes somewhat. The narrative is the villain, "good" beasts catalyze positive change and create true heroes worthy of making the world a better place, while "bad" beasts are the ones the game seems madly in love with. As for the idea of making it more like a terminal illness, I actually have my own entertained thoughts about a whole splat for that I've talked about once or twice in these threads (think Cronenberg.)

Really, the most damning indictment I've seen of Beast so far is something a friend of mine said. He doesn't play World of Darkness games much, and doesn't really know a lot about them beyond vague distate for the 90s WoD he tried, and vague approval of stuff I've told him about Demon. I showed him the Beast draft, told him to focus on the overall fluff, and asked him to tell me what he thought.

He said "a lot of this reads like it was written by a school shooter."

I'm totally down for this or for the Hero Raising Sim 2015 idea you had.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 20:56

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Kibner posted:

A fallen Hunter is a tragic story. A Beast or Hero have always been and always will be unrepentant assholes.

That, and from what I understand of Slasher, isn't it possible to have one who has an Undertaking like 'I really love killing poo poo that views me as prey' and go around playing Vampire Turnabout Dexter?

# ¿ Jun 4, 2015 02:31

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Kavak posted:

It's like joose for vampires. You drink a few drops of Changeling and suddenly you've been put on the Red List, spent all your money on a piano you don't know how to play, and it's not Monday anywhere.

I would definitely play Vampire: The Hangover.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2015 06:25

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Luminous Obscurity posted:

Holy crap I think Beast just clicked for me. Beasts aren't being mapped to "The Other." Think about it. They're predatory, have incredible power that is inherited from ancient times, have connections to nearly every group of shadowy monsters in the WOD, and their actions generate monsters personified by the worst of humanity.

They're the 1%. The deck is stacked in their favor from the start and they still don't feel like its enough. Any actions against them are treated as irrational and villainous no matter how justified they may be.

Heroes aren't meant to be seen as oppressors, they're the products of a corrupt system. They're the PIC/Tea Party/etc. While they have the power to harm Beasts, they're largely too unstable and disorganized to do so. Meanwhile the masses are either blind to the true nature of their predators or too scared/overwhelmed to make any serious moves against them.

I mean I still don't really want to play them because that's super depressing, but they make way more sense when you view them through that lens. Mage just lost its title as "The Wire" of the World of Darkness.

This is the best reading I've seen.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2015 23:31

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Cabbit posted:

Why don't people ever pull in Abrahamic stuff when doing big 'THE PANTHEONS OF THE WORLD' stuff? I'm sick of Thor, that dude's everywhere.

The Angels even had sons and maybe daughters who fundamentally disordered the world and were crazy. Not to mention originally the pantheon was much larger and even after going mono/henotheistic there's still room for stuff like Sophia the Spirit of Wisdom.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2015 01:27

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

ErichZahn posted:

Do serious research into yhvh's former pantheon.

Considering Scion 1e, I don't think this is going to happen, sadly. I agree that El-Shaddai/YHVH/El could be a really cool twist for the crazy godchild setting and I can see a ton of ways to do it, but they couldn't be bothered to do very much research as it was.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2015 16:21

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Luminous Obscurity posted:

A while back Rose actually put up an apology on behalf of WW/OP for how poorly researched (and racist) Scion 1E was, so there is hope.

That is legitimately good to hear.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2015 17:27

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 03:50

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I know nothing inspires dread so much as the dark concept of Food Coma.

You'll note the only drawback of indulging too much isn't a loss of control or whatever, it's 'the people I just tortured might find and extract vengeance on me because I'm vulnerable'. As they goddamn well should, I haven't seen anything to suggest Beasts shouldn't get the mob song treatment every time anyone encounters them.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2015 08:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > World of Darkness Megathread: Curse of the Were-Poster

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