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Haha, the robotic poster assumes other people are robots as well. beep boop low utility human detected, adjusting expectations downwards - recalibrating vocabulary circuits
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May 5, 2015 16:12
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asdf32 posted:But that's much much different than the unstated value judgement inherent to many of the "businesses should pay a living wage/business is costing society by not paying a living wage" arguments being made here. And saying that businesses shouldn't be permitted to pollute isn't a value judgement? The only difference between air pollution, sound pollution, and low wages in terms of social externality is where you personally draw the line in terms of "business are responsible to provide X level of service to society"
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May 5, 2015 17:04
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asdf32 posted:That's not really true. A lot of people are getting hung up on the triviality of "if Walmart paid more the government would pay less". But that doesn't actually mean anything, we could replace Walmart with literally anything and it remains true. It tells us nothing about whether Wal-mart has "cost" society or not because cost is actually a judement call which includes a notion of responsibility - exactly the responsibility I don't think exists or should be expected here. We can absolutely calculate Wal-Mart's costs, as we can see that they pay some employees below poverty wages and then tally up the public welfare expenditures given to Wal-Mart employees. All these things are quantifiable. Just because you arbitrarily draw the line of responsibility in one spot does not mean that someone else's arbitrary reckoning of social responsibility is less invalid.
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May 5, 2015 17:31
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asdf32 posted:Yep we can easily quantify an almost infinite number of things Wal-Mart doesn't pay for. The next step is to construct reasonable arguments for why you think they're supposed to pay for those things. That's what's included in the notion of cost. People have already made this reasonable argument - a living wage is better for society as a whole. You rejected this argument with blather about useless people and your opinion about the responsibility of private business. Nobody has an obligation to jump through your weirdo rhetorical hoops.
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May 5, 2015 18:07
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You have so fair failed, in your duty to me, to provide a rational argument as to the arbitrary imposition of age limitations on so called "child" labor. Why do you want to punish the most productive preadolescents in our society? Why do you want to reward the low-skill nonpubescent?
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May 5, 2015 18:12
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wateroverfire posted:In the like past 5 minutes of posting I made maybe $200. it is not a good idea to shitpost while donating plasma, put the phone down for five minutes du de
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May 6, 2015 16:17
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Shitposting rabidly is one thing but framing yourself as some freewheeling rich guy just ups the mom's basement quotia to toxic levels.
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May 6, 2015 16:45
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i, a middle class white man with a stable job and no debt, wish i had no problems in my life like poor people. they've got it made, they just sit around on their porches all day drinking rum and listening to jazz records
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May 6, 2015 18:13
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is this the thread where we pretend to care about the global poor so we can complain about liberals
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May 6, 2015 19:50
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agreed, it should be much higher. it's laughable that americans are so invested in spite for the poor that we have to set $15/hr as an ideal goal
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May 7, 2015 23:55
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Cole posted:what about that guy who started out at minimum wage back when it was $6.50/hour and he's been working all these years and it up to $15 now. that's almost $9 an hour he has earned in raises over the last decade or so. and then minimum wage gets bumped up to $15/hour. lol how much of a sociopath do you have to be to cite a dude barely staying ahead of inflation through hard work as a good thing and a reason people should be paid less
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May 8, 2015 00:06
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 my grandfather lived on a five dollar day, the problem with poor people today is that they're LAZY
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May 8, 2015 00:07
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my brothers died face down in the mud while getting paid minimum wage. if you raise the minimum wage, their sacrifice was for nothing
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May 8, 2015 00:12
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Cole posted:alright, then what should we do for the guy who has been working for almost a decade and is now getting paid what you wish minimum wage to be, and then minimum wage gets raised to that? pay him more Cole posted:regardless if your argument is "he won't be making less money!" it's a really lovely and demoralizing feeling to go from minimum wage, work nine years, and then you're back to minimum wage. it's even more lovely and demoralizing to work for nine years in a job that vlaues you so little that they barely pay you more than the legal minimum i dunno, i guess for me, personally, i would prefer to blame the party trying to pay me less rather than the party trying to pay me more when considering why my pay is so low
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May 8, 2015 00:22
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How dare the nanny government intervene! I worked my rear end off to get treated like human garbage, and I LIKE it that way!!! blue collar workers finding masochistic pleasure in being taken advantage of never ceases to amaze me. it was really eye opening at age sixteen when i started working in a nursing home and the CNAs all to a woman took pride in working harder than the nurses for less money
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May 8, 2015 00:24
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Cole posted:this will lead to raising the wages of everyone, which, for a lot of companies (particularly small businesses) isn't feasible. it is feasible, actually logically, wouldn't it be better then if we mandated wage maximums? please think about the implications of this for a minute, thanks and god bless
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May 8, 2015 00:25
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Cole posted:You're only thinking of companies like Wal Mart in situations like this. Some small businesses will get railed harder than your favorite prison story, and not necessarily because they are raising minimum wage to $15, but because that will create entitlement among those who were hired before the minimum wage increase. "Some businesses living paycheck to paycheck will be totally hosed over if we mandate wage increases! This is why we must gently caress over laborers living paycheck to paycheck. Also those laborers may have their feelings hurt if they're reminded that their economic prospects are based in systemic exploitation and underpayment, so it's better to pay them dogshit and not challenge the blue collar identity that stays the cruel hand of suicide"
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May 8, 2015 00:41
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Cole posted:Really? You don't think people would be pissed about getting paid minimum wage simply because minimum wage gets raised so much more drastically than it has been raised in the past? You're pretty hard headed if you think people would be okay with that. people got pissed all the time for absolutely stupid reasons that is not a sound basis on which to place economic policy
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May 8, 2015 00:42
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Cole posted:You do know it's possible to move on from your $10/hr job to bigger and better things, right? You don't need to artificially get there, you can actually go out and earn $50k a year if you really give some effort. are you directly accusing me of making minimum wage or something because i was making fun of your really bad and dumb argument, is your rebuttal actually "you must be poor"
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May 8, 2015 00:43
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Cole posted:It has nothing to do with making more than someone else to feel good. Stop putting words in my mouth. It has to do with putting in several years of work to get above minimum wage to only get placed right back at minimum wage. You proved yourself over years that you are worth more than minimum, that's why you got a raise in the first place. In many cases, you're giving people who have worked hard to get paid more than minimum wage a raise.... right to minimum wage, and that's a lovely proposition. so you don't care how much money you're paid in an absolute sense, you only care that you make more money than your inferiors?
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May 8, 2015 00:45
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i make at least a quarter mil a year, so my argument is like four times better than cole's by default before you actually try to process all the ways he fails to make any sense at all
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May 8, 2015 00:46
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Cole posted:Yeah, pretty much. There is no reason a 15 year old should be making $15/hour. why not? how much time is a teenager's worth relative to an adults? should people close to retirement have a higher minimum wage because they have less relative time to sell?
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May 8, 2015 00:47
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Cole posted:Because they are 15 years old. and?
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May 8, 2015 00:48
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i'm actually looking for an explanation here, and not you repeating your opinion that teenagers should be paid less like it wasn't nonsensical the first time
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May 8, 2015 00:48
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Cole posted:Because nobody who has earned raises to get beyond minimum wage deserves to be stuck at minimum wage again. haha you literally think compensation is a measure of self worth rather than a transaction that provides resources a person uses to survive amazing
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May 8, 2015 00:50
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Cole posted:yeah. the better your work, the more you are worth. that seems pretty logical. it's always good when a legendarily stupid poster fully vets their reputation
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May 8, 2015 00:51
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Cole posted:In a perfect world, you would take a baseline amount that it takes to live on (to cover rent, food, etc), increase it by a certain percentage (say 10%), and call that minimum wage are you sitting down? i have some, shocking, news for you...
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May 8, 2015 00:56
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i don't understand where people are getting this $15 figure from. what we should do instead is figure out the average expenses for a family of four, and then calculate how much a person would need to be paid every hour for 40 hours, 52 weeks a year, in order to hit that target
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May 8, 2015 00:58
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Cole posted:The core of my argument has been about that guy who is already making $15/hour. You are undermining what that person has done for several years by sticking them back at minimum wage anyway. It also has drastic impacts for small businesses. how does it undermine someone when other people are being paid as much as they are. like what do i care if other people are being paid more than me. do you think people making minimum wage have to wear a special shame hat which indicates their worthless status or something
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May 8, 2015 01:00
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Cole posted:That you haven't actually read all of my posts. the joke is that you described how the $15/hour figure was calculated when saying $15/hour was too high. it was a pretty funny self own, to describe exactly what happened as a bad thing when you then advocate for the thing you just said, was bad. it demonstrates that you have no idea what you're talking about "people shouldn't be paid a so called living wage. instead, they should make enough money so they can live" <-- that is what you said, lol
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May 8, 2015 01:01
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cole is ashamed to admit that others gently caress the melon better, for lower pay
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May 8, 2015 01:06
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asdf32 posted:That number has literally zero to do with how the market would otherwise price labor and setting prices (wages) in the market has negative consequences. the market is entirely a creation of regulation by some outside authority, so it's like extremely odd and dumb to cite regulation itself as negative to a market just because remember how you quit the thread last time i pointed out your argument could easily approve of child labor?
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May 8, 2015 03:29
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yes, people do use fallacies to make bad arguments, you are correct about that
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May 8, 2015 06:56
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on the left posted:Those aren't fallacies at all. they are, actually Jarmak posted:I think its more along the lines of illustrating by hyperbole that "increasing minimum doesn't have bad economic effects" is a really dumb argument. Of course there is a point where raising the minimum wage causes ill effects , and saying "well why don't we raise it to 100$ then!" is a attempt to forcing people who are attempting to hand-waive potential ill effects away to admit there is a point where it is a bad idea and justify why their stated preference is not going to cause that. "drinking too much water kills you, drinking water therefore has bad health effects" -someone who thinks they are making a good argument but in reality is making a bad argument
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May 8, 2015 07:09
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i mean you realize this is why people believe the laffer curve is an actual thing and not just a vacant rhetorical point
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May 8, 2015 07:13
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on the left posted:$100 an hour would result in a massive pay increase that would in no uncertain terms raise the standard of living of anybody with a job that paid under $100 an hour though. If you are arguing that the minimum wage increase is for worker benefit, it makes no sense to stop at $15 an hour. The only reason to stick to a "reasonable" minimum wage is because you are concerned about economic effects that are mostly irrelevant to non-workers. ok "your proposal is too reasonable, if it wasn't reasonable, it would be unreasonable. your move, liberals  "
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May 8, 2015 07:28
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on the left posted:Why do you oppose a higher minimum wage, do you hate poor people? i don't oppose a higher minimum wage, though
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May 8, 2015 07:32
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Jarmak posted:Saying that $15 isn't a problem is just as much gut feel unless there's been some studies looking at that number specifically that you're basing this off. i hate to break it to you, but all economics is a judgement call based on individual values since money is an abstract concept and convenient fiction we use to regulate transactions between individuals and groups of individuals $15 is a figure which largely matches the living wage for a large proportion of individuals who work for minimum wage, which is nice, as it alleviates poverty among people who have jobs but are poor. whether or not you think society needs to help people who have jobs which don't pay them enough to have a decent life is one of those gut decisions boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:53 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 07:47
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it's really easy to be all "higher wages are going to gently caress small business across rural america" when rural america is already hosed by lack of economic prospects and a shift to the service economy that all but guarantees structural poverty and economic collapse in places that simply don't matter to a global economy
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May 8, 2015 08:00
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Jarmak posted:You say this like it's some sort smokescreen instead of a very real reason to be concerned. turns out that rural america is going to be hosed with or without minimum wage increases so you may as well increase the minimum wage if it has the short term effect of improving the lives of the working poor arguing otherwise is a good way to hide behind poor people (that you don't actually care about) in order to advocate for the status quo, of people who work actual jobs but don't get paid enough to participate in the economy
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May 8, 2015 08:13
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