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Hi All. My sweet girl had an FCE event last week while under my parents' care- when I was literally on the edge of the other side of the country. I came home to a dog with a limp rear. She is very happy to be home, but I'm kind of at a loss on how to deal with this. She's had the pressure relieved on her spine within hours, and is showing some marginal pain/touch improvement within a week, which I am taking to be a good sign. The good news is that she is as stubborn as I am, and neither one of us is willing to give up. I have very basic information on how to handle her, but this is all new to both of us. Anyone who has experience with this, please feel free to offer any insights into dealing with a less mobile animal. Thanks.
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May 26, 2015 15:44
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So far I have tried various methods of getting her to urinate, but it seems that the easiest on her is actually to hold her upside down and apply gentle pressure to her bladder. The vet means of sliding your hands in behind the ribs and applying gentle pressure seems to work, but not as well. I can't get her to completely void that way, and she doesn't look comfortable. I've been able to detect poop times perfectly for getting her outside so far, although I managed to step in a turd and drag it into the house earlier today.  I've got some cheap doggy pads to lay her on in case if she leaks, but I don't like them. They'll wick away moisture, but not very well. I'm afraid of her getting burned skin from just leaving her on them if a little dribble escapes. I'm curious if anyone knows of any of those pads that turn crystals into gel when exposed to urine, and how well they wick away moisture. She is eating and drinking normally, finally. I bribed her with a little chicken earlier today, but her appetite has returned, and other than not really understanding why she can't get her back half moving, seems quite happy and incredibly affectionate. 
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May 27, 2015 22:35
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Wow. That's nuts. Sorry, no personal experience, but good luck! You seem really devoted to this dog.
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May 28, 2015 02:29
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She is in good health other than this freakish occurrence, and is very happy, so you do what you can, ya know? She still doesn't seem to have more than 'deep' sensation in her feet, but she can control her bowels. Sadly, she still needs some help with her bladder, but she can hold it, so.. 
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Jun 3, 2015 01:52
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The rear stabilizer/carrying bag (harness) arrived, so I can return the one I have on loan from the wonderful PT person. It isn't quite as nice, but won't chafe, and will work just fine. She appears to be starting to feel things healing - she nipped at her right rear haunches and caught a bit of flesh from the look of things. She won't do that again. She is not weight bearing, but I can get her to hover on her front legs and use the rear for stabilizing once I correct her paws so she isn't dragging them behind her. She also did a tailcurl when I was setting her prone to relieve herself this morning.. but I can tell how taxing this is on her with these nerves healing. The Rimadyl isn't helping, and other than feeding her a fingerful at once, I can't get her to take her glucosamine or NuPro today.   Spoiled dog is spoiled.
Flo Cytometer fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 00:51
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 She is so happy- I know I made the correct decision. She isn't moving her legs yet, but she can stiffen them and lean back on them for the first time since the event. She can twitch her tail and stretch them when she goes to the bathroom, so I think she will be walking soon enough. I can't seriously be the only person with a at-least-temporarily paralyzed pet here, can I?
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Jun 5, 2015 00:05
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You're doing really well by the dog, and wish you continued success. However, we have been getting poo poo posts from new people, and I guess some of PI is gun shy this month. Your post is not poo poo. Post x-rays and continues adorable photos!
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Jun 5, 2015 19:42
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Suspect Bucket posted:You're doing really well by the dog, and wish you continued success. However, we have been getting poo poo posts from new people, and I guess some of PI is gun shy this month. Thank you. I guess I should have suspected something, or been suspect as this is a rather new account. I shitpost a lot, but I save that for GBS. I'll have to ask the vet for some pictures. I wasn't physically there when she was injured - my first no-pet vacation in about 5 years. Of course, I was devastated. I had to figure things from poor phone pictures and a lot of time on my livesaving usb charge/battery. Many hours were spent on this spoiled little brat. I have a very annoyed picture from this morning when I woke her up before 6 to get ready for her vet appointment.  (As promised) Good news, everyone! Vet did a simple squeeze test, and both rear limbs and tail responded this time to less than 'deep pain'. She actually got up (improperly) on her haunches long enough to re-position herself in her crate. She is starting to move, even if really poorly. I've had nights like that in my early 20s. 
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Jun 6, 2015 04:35
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Yay! Good job dog! Good job Flo! We had a dog when I was a kid that ended up being paralyzed on the back end, something related to being an old man with cancer. We went to similar lengths to keep him happy and as healthy as possible, so you are not alone. I'm so happy for you that she's improving! Please keep posting updates and pictures!
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Jun 6, 2015 18:31
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She is a bit grumbly tonight as well- just got back from a garage sale which started EARLY AM. I ended up selling my truck for almost my asking price which will help GREATLY with her current bills. Hopefully I'll get some electronics sold tomorrow during the community-wide sale. She is kicking her feet when she is asleep, but still not much activity when she is awake. I suppose she has to relearn as much as we do when we have spinal issues, but darn it- neither of us has a lot of patience. It breaks my heart when I don't have her caged and she drags herself a couple feet across the floor to look for me.
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Jun 7, 2015 01:27
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Are you doing PT with her? If it's a confirmed FCE you should be PTing the poo poo out of that dog! Why is she shaved? Did she have a myelogram? What do you mean by relieving the pressure on her spine? If it's an FCE there isn't any real thing that can be done to do that... edit: I don't have a paralyzed animal but I'm a veterinarian on a path to specialize in neurology so I have a lot of experience with them! Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 07:35
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Topoisomerase posted:Are you doing PT with her? If it's a confirmed FCE you should be PTing the poo poo out of that dog! Why is she shaved? Did she have a myelogram? What do you mean by relieving the pressure on her spine? If it's an FCE there isn't any real thing that can be done to do that... Yes, she is in active PT, three times a day at home, and every week externally with new tasks depending on her progress. She is shaved from the myelogram AND her surgery. Her spinal cord was inflamed and pressing hard upon her spine in a specific location as identified by the myelogram, and she underwent sugery to remove the bone immediately impeding the swelling, so it could release some pressure and keep any more nerve damage from occurring-hopefully. FCE already happened, but you might want to recheck what treatments are possible following the trauma- if done quick enough. Despite being on the other side of the country with a phone that didn't work, she went from trauma to surgery in under 12 hours.  She started kicking her hind feet in time with the front. I don't think there was anything else in the world that would have made me happier at that point.I've moved her from her bed with the fencing into a portable playpen that was offered for no charge. She seems to enjoy it more than the fence. Not sure why- she has always been that way since I rescued her. Todays' Photos:  Before she noticed the camera.  Just gonna make my dognest so you know this is MINE. Flo Cytometer fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:32
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Out of curiosity is she going nuts with the inactivity or is she taking is pretty slow without much fight ? My sheltie (<1yr admittedly) is practically vibrating with energy most of the time and he was NOT THRILLED with cage rest when he hurt his leg.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:48
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Tamarillo posted:Out of curiosity is she going nuts with the inactivity or is she taking is pretty slow without much fight ? My sheltie (<1yr admittedly) is practically vibrating with energy most of the time and he was NOT THRILLED with cage rest when he hurt his leg. She shifts between the two. It drives me as nuts as herself to sit still for more than an hour, but I want her [to be physically] fixed. The Rymadil does a pretty good job making her calm when the pain gains. It breaks both of us to see her lying there, since I was a lot more dormant than she ever was. I promised her at least an hour a day of exercise after she is safe to do so. Flo Cytometer fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 00:39
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Jesus gently caress a lot of words were dropped -and I never noticed. Oh well.
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Jun 9, 2015 01:25
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I look forward to videos of her chasing toys in the future, OP. You are a good dog owner.
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Jun 9, 2015 06:07
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Fluffy Bunnies posted:I look forward to videos of her chasing toys in the future, OP. You are a good dog owner. She'll probably be chasing rabbits. That is one of her favorite back yard activities. She has been very good today, and alerted me to when she had to go, so I was able to assist her without any accidents (as usual). She likes laying by the plant (and randomly destroying it by tearing off leaves). I am sitting here today so I figured I'd let her have a 'normal' day without the cage - at least for a few hours.  She is enjoying ice cubes - it is at least 80 outside, and somewhat warm inside despite the shades drawn.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:50
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Flo Cytometer posted:Yes, she is in active PT, three times a day at home, and every week externally with new tasks depending on her progress. She is shaved from the myelogram AND her surgery. Her spinal cord was inflamed and pressing hard upon her spine in a specific location as identified by the myelogram, and she underwent sugery to remove the bone immediately impeding the swelling, so it could release some pressure and keep any more nerve damage from occurring-hopefully. There's absolutely no evidence that shows that dogs that undergo laminectomy +/- durotomy/durectomy will have better outcomes following an FCE than dogs that don't. And there are a lot of risks to surgery. The vast majority of neurologists don't currently recommend surgery in these cases. You're still having the ischemia and edema INSIDE THE CORD that's causing the problem. Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 20:48
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Topoisomerase posted:There's absolutely no evidence that shows that dogs that undergo laminectomy +/- durotomy/durectomy will have better outcomes following an FCE than dogs that don't. And there are a lot of risks to surgery. The vast majority of neurologists don't currently recommend surgery in these cases. You're still having the ischemia and edema INSIDE THE CORD that's causing the problem. There is also no proof of gravity, but most of us see it as a pretty good theory. Obviously removing pressure on the cord is going to be a good idea, even if surgery is lovely. You came in here with an axe to grind, and don't seem intent to leave without doing so. Why don't you stop making GBS threads on my thread and go flagellate yourself instead?
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Jun 9, 2015 21:09
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Wow I mean, I didn't come in "with an axe to grind." I just had a question. It's not the standard therapy for the condition your dog has. Obviously practicing medicine, including veterinary medicine, is an art as well as a science so if it works for another surgeon, then whatever. I'm just saying there isn't a lot of evidence out there to support surgical treatment of FCE. I'm talking about scientific journal articles or case series or anything. Generally these dogs have a tendency to improve WITHOUT surgery as well as WITH. is what I am saying. Of course I can see the theory behind it, just in practice it doesn't seem to work to an extent that for MOST PEOPLE will justify surgery. Obviously the surgeon you saw has a different opinion, and that's fine. I hope they do a case series about it or something; I'd like to see their results. I hope your dog continues to improve. Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 22:23
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"Why isn't anyone replying to my thread??" *veterinarian who is a specialist in the EXACT TOPIC of the thread posts a reply* "WOW CLEARLY YOU'RE JUST HERE TO poo poo UP MY THREAD"
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Jun 9, 2015 22:46
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Flo Cytometer posted:There is also no proof of gravity, but most of us see it as a pretty good theory. Obviously removing pressure on the cord is going to be a good idea, even if surgery is lovely. I understand that you're dealing with a lot of frustrating feelings right now, but Topo is an actual vet offering you a free second opinion, which you can take or leave. Obviously you can't undo the surgery, but it sounds like there's no harm in having done it. Nobody's saying you're a bad dog owner. In fact, I think we're all in a little awe of how committed you are to her. There's a lady in my building with a three-legged dog she has a sling for and it makes me squee a little every time I see them together. eta: PS that is really terrible luck that the first time you take a vacation without her she goes and gets catastrophically injured. Try not to beat yourself up about it, it's just really bad luck. Pile of Kittens fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 22:52
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Flo Cytometer posted:Why don't you stop making GBS threads on my thread and go flagellate yourself instead? Nothing in Topoi's posts suggests to me she's trying to be anything but helpful. If people were making GBS threads on your thread you would definitely know it. 
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Jun 9, 2015 22:58
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Topoisomerase posted:Wow I mean, I didn't come in "with an axe to grind." I own my decisions, and I stand by them; It was strongly suggested to me by veterinarians whom I have trusted for nearly 30 years to relieve the pressure on the spinal cord, so I did so. I didn't mean to snap at you, but it really seemed that you were trying to find a reason to cut into me. I apologize if I took it out on you needlessly, but both of your posts came across rather pessimistic. Pile of Kittens posted:eta: PS that is really terrible luck that the first time you take a vacation without her she goes and gets catastrophically injured. Try not to beat yourself up about it, it's just really bad luck. Tell me about it. She has always been my baby, and whines whenever I am out of sight. She is even worse now. My heart aches, but she is improving- and that is the best that I can hope for. LITERALLY A BIRD posted:Nothing in Topoi's posts suggests to me she's trying to be anything but helpful. If people were making GBS threads on your thread you would definitely know it. I think I've addressed this, but thanks for the feedback. It still reads a bit negative to me, and someone who is working as a vet and moving towards neurological issues vs advice taken from my trusted vet is, well, precisely that.
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Jun 9, 2015 23:07
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Flo Cytometer posted:I think I've addressed this, but thanks for the feedback. It still reads a bit negative to me, and someone studying to be a vet vs advice taken from my trusted vet is, well, precisely that. I'm already a veterinarian, not studying to be one. I'm not yet a specialist in neurology (which is the area of vet med that deals with this specific problem), but I am starting my second year of post-graduate training in a month to become one. Also I'm not really pessimistic - I'm saying your dog will likely improve whether there was surgery or not, these dogs mostly do fairly well, though it can take some time and dedicated owners/PT which it seems like you are on top of.
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Jun 9, 2015 23:09
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:Nothing in Topoi's posts suggests to me she's trying to be anything but helpful. If people were making GBS threads on your thread you would definitely know it.  Flo Cytometer posted:I think I've addressed this, but thanks for the feedback. It still reads a bit negative to me, and someone who is working as a vet and moving towards neurological issues vs advice taken from my trusted vet is, well, precisely that. Vets have different opinions about things, man. That's all. It ain't really negative.
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Jun 9, 2015 23:51
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Topoisomerase posted:Also I'm not really pessimistic - I'm saying your dog will likely improve whether there was surgery or not, these dogs mostly do fairly well, though it can take some time and dedicated owners/PT which it seems like you are on top of. Well, something I omitted was that this was 'the worst I've seen' from the vet who handled this, and although I am familiar with hyperbole, the glare I was getting from him was pretty blunt. He was pleased when he saw her a couple days ago, and was pleasantly surprised that she was showing feeling within her paws. I also changed my post above once I realized you weren't in training, but were practicing- but you caught it before that edit. I just want my baby to get back to normal. She was rather sore today, and snapped at me when I picked her up from the straps, which has NEVER happened before. She didn't make contact, and was obviously afraid, since she cowered in the corner of her pen afterwards- but it reminds me that my little girl does have some "wild" tendencies that I tend to ignore these days. As long as she doesn't eat my face, she's welcome to sleep at the foot of the bed. Fluffy Bunnies posted:Vets have different opinions about things, man. That's all. It ain't really negative. All I can say is too much GBS. It still reads a bit pessimistic to me, but I shouldn't have jumped at it, especially with this being my first thread here. I'm overprotective about my little girl- I'm aware of that.
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Jun 10, 2015 00:09
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WHat'd i miss
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Jun 10, 2015 00:47
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Flo Cytometer posted:All I can say is too much GBS. It still reads a bit pessimistic to me, but I shouldn't have jumped at it, especially with this being my first thread here. I'm overprotective about my little girl- I'm aware of that. We're a lot more laid back than GBS, dude. Superconsndar posted:WHat'd i miss all the illuminati gun confiscation videos I'm posting elsewhere (oh poo poo 4th wall broken)
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Jun 10, 2015 00:50
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I am a vet too, and to be honest when I heard your dog had surgery, I thought, "Hmm, there must be a misunderstanding; that dog couldn't have an FCE if it had surgery" because I was also taught (by specialists) that surgery is not a viable treatment for FCEs. I'm not saying this to shame you or to say you made a wrong decision. You followed your vet's recommendation. At the end of the day, neither Topo nor I examined your dog, and your vet did, and recommended surgery. It was done, and now she's getting better. I just wanted to point out that surgery is certainly an unusual treatment for FCE and is in the minority opinion, which is why Topo was questioning why it was done.
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Jun 10, 2015 00:51
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When my dog ahs to go to the vet I shoot it and buy a new dog thats my advice
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Jun 10, 2015 00:55
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Flo Cytometer posted:She was rather sore today, and snapped at me when I picked her up from the straps, which has NEVER happened before. She didn't make contact, and was obviously afraid, since she cowered in the corner of her pen afterwards- but it reminds me that my little girl does have some "wild" tendencies that I tend to ignore these days. I'd expect that. Pain is the number one reason for a dog to lash out, especially owner-directed. It's probably not something you'll need to worry about after she heals, but I'd try to pair any physical manipulation with something extremely high value, like tripe or liver.
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Jun 10, 2015 00:59
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ButWhatIf posted:I'd expect that. Pain is the number one reason for a dog to lash out, especially owner-directed. It's probably not something you'll need to worry about after she heals, but I'd try to pair any physical manipulation with something extremely high value, like tripe or liver.  She is a rescue, and was quite wild when I got her- she has been known to scare people (in the past), and can still surprise me every so often. Also, one of her supplements has chicken liver.  Braki posted:I am a vet too, and to be honest when I heard your dog had surgery, I thought, "Hmm, there must be a misunderstanding; that dog couldn't have an FCE if it had surgery" because I was also taught (by specialists) that surgery is not a viable treatment for FCEs. I'm not saying this to shame you or to say you made a wrong decision. You followed your vet's recommendation. At the end of the day, neither Topo nor I examined your dog, and your vet did, and recommended surgery. It was done, and now she's getting better. I just wanted to point out that surgery is certainly an unusual treatment for FCE and is in the minority opinion, which is why Topo was questioning why it was done. When surgery was suggested, we didn't know if it was an FCE. We still aren't sure. The vet said the inflammation was some of the worst that he has ever seen- suggesting that it was even worse than a dog that has been run over. Since we've been with them for decades, I didn't really think they would overstate things to cause further pain as an excuse for higher profit. I'm still at a loss, since it is an old injury- likely before she was under my care. All I know (or care) is that she is starting to improve- even if she has recently cost me as much as a used car.
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Jun 10, 2015 01:47
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Give her the night-night juice, OP.
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Jun 10, 2015 02:00
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Flo Cytometer posted:
It probably has to be something that she doesn't usually get so that she's super excited she's getting a SPECIAL TREAT.
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Jun 10, 2015 02:02
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Flo Cytometer posted:
My totally tame dog that I have had since she was 8 weeks old will shriek and whip her head towards my hand, as if to bite, if I hurt her with the slicker brush. Its nothing to do with "wildness". Dogs are just animals and sometimes they just react. Chicken liver, what? I think you are doing a great job with your dog, keep up the good work. Its weird about your vets decision but I would also follow my vet's recommendation of treatment.
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Jun 10, 2015 02:03
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Flo Cytometer posted:When surgery was suggested, we didn't know if it was an FCE. We still aren't sure. The vet said the inflammation was some of the worst that he has ever seen- suggesting that it was even worse than a dog that has been run over. Since we've been with them for decades, I didn't really think they would overstate things to cause further pain as an excuse for higher profit. I'm still at a loss, since it is an old injury- likely before she was under my care. All I know (or care) is that she is starting to improve- even if she has recently cost me as much as a used car. An FCE, if that's what it was, is basically like a spinal "stroke" so it's not usually from an old injury if that's what you were trying to say there. Another possibility for a dog that acutely can't use its hind legs is an intervertebral disc extrusion, either compressive (it is sitting in the vertebral canal compressing the spinal cord - this is where the surgery is usually indicated, to decompress, remove the disc material and most of the time to take the rest of the material out of the torn disc too) or noncompressive (it was high velocity and it tore right through the outer protective layer of the cord and lodged itself in the middle - this is typically non-surgical as the material is within the cord and decompression from outside is usually not really helpful). Perhaps the latter is the etiology of your dog's injury. The noncompressive disc looks identical to an FCE on a myelogram (all you can see is a spot of cord swelling, if anything), only MRI can be used to potentially differentiate between the two. Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jun 10, 2015 |
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Jun 10, 2015 02:06
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Flo Cytometer posted:
Ok OP, I'll bite. what did you want out of this thread? veterinarians have given you the opinions you asked for, i'm a behavior modification professional and i just gave you advice on dealing with the pain-based snapping (which IS IN FACT what is happening, regardless of how rude-mouthy-jumpy she's been since you adopted her) and you've treated all of us in a really dismissive fashion. EDIT: a supplement is not a high value reward for dealing with severe discomfort. ButWhatIf fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Jun 10, 2015 |
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Jun 10, 2015 02:08
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OP have you considered stealing your dog's valium and taking some because it might help
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Jun 10, 2015 02:16
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Everyone's being super polite to you since you're in a stressful place. Please don't poo poo up your own thread.
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Jun 10, 2015 02:24
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