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Tezzor posted:Because this decade's excuse for Space Fetishists is that it is imperative that we spend many many times as much to ensure that we could survive the vague threat of asteroid impact on Mars than on a planet substantially more amenable to human life. Thank you for confirming you are a close minded moron about yet another issue 
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Jun 10, 2015 10:31
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Starshark posted:We do stupid things with consciousness and gently caress up everything we touch. If we expand it to the universe, we will only do more damage. We were a failed experiment and should just die out. Considering what we evolved from and how life is on this planet, it's not terribly surprising that humanity is the way it is. From evolution's point of view, you could say we are a great success for a planet where 99% of species are extinct. The story of humanity is just barely beginning and we have no idea where it will go because we have nothing to compare ourselves to. I mean, you complain about the damage humanity has done, but who is the victim? Nature made us, and it is indifferent to our actions and their consequences. The only ones who will really pay for our actions are us. We are the only ones with something to lose. Nature and life will continue. E: To be more relevant, Mars is a red herring. The real treasure is in asteroids. There really is no point in making Mars like Earth if we could use those resources to help ourselves here. Research and conservation will probably be the main interests.
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Jun 10, 2015 10:55
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Forget Mars. We need a space program that nudges asteroids into collision trajectories with the moon for half time entertainment at sporting events.
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Jun 10, 2015 12:46
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lets do it, lets colonize the SUN!
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Jun 10, 2015 14:16
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Motto posted:I don't get why people with this sort of view don't just kill themselves. Why do that when you can help steer humanity to an earlier grave?
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Jun 10, 2015 14:16
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First Mars is colonized then Jupiter and Saturn then ur anus
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Jun 10, 2015 14:24
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I want asteroid mining to be a thing. All these floating hunks if various metals. Ooh baby. Pinpoint asteroid landing directly into a giant foundry making more spaceships to harvest more asteroids. Asteroid jockeys.
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Jun 10, 2015 15:02
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Salt Fish posted:There is literally no reason to do any of that beyond just churning out more and more miserable human lives (as if 7 billion here on earth wasn't enough). Living in space would be a god drat nightmare and the laws of physics limit our species to this solar system at most. We would be better off building cities at the bottom of the ocean. It'd be easier, less costly, more pleasant, more abundant resources, and your commute back to the terrestrial sphere wouldn't be 6 months. Here's a reason: some people want to do that. Here's another reason: the process of developing an artificial ecosystem that can support itself would show us a lot about how to have a sustainable industrial civilization. Here's a third reason: it seems to make you angry and upset. But you have a very limited perception of things that resolves in despair, so maybe we could just dope you up with SSRIs a bit instead.
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Jun 10, 2015 15:09
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Effectronica posted:Here's a reason: some people want to do that. Here's another reason: the process of developing an artificial ecosystem that can support itself would show us a lot about how to have a sustainable industrial civilization. Here's a third reason: it seems to make you angry and upset. for once, i completely agree
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Jun 10, 2015 15:35
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Well, let's say we do apply all our industrial and scientific might to the problem of solving human want on our planet, and within a hundred years, transform our civilization into one where all work is done by robots, and all energy is derived from renewable sources and fusion power, where all human beings live in almost unthinkable abundance, prosperity, and freedom. Are we allowed to explore space then?
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Jun 10, 2015 16:08
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Nope. The concerns of day to day management of the anthroposphere (heh) trump infantile dreams of space travel.
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Jun 10, 2015 16:23
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Effectronica posted:Here's a reason: some people want to do that. Here's another reason: the process of developing an artificial ecosystem that can support itself would show us a lot about how to have a sustainable industrial civilization. Here's a third reason: it seems to make you angry and upset. 1) Let's send those people to the Moon right now 2) Do that in the ocean/south pole/desert 3) Good point.
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Jun 10, 2015 16:23
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Salt Fish posted:There is literally no reason to do any of that beyond just churning out more and more miserable human lives (as if 7 billion here on earth wasn't enough). Living in space would be a god drat nightmare and the laws of physics limit our species to this solar system at most. We would be better off building cities at the bottom of the ocean. It'd be easier, less costly, more pleasant, more abundant resources, and your commute back to the terrestrial sphere wouldn't be 6 months. There is an argument to be made that dropping off humans with all our technological development, on a planet which posesses all the mineral resources of Earth with none of the territorial or political issues, would be a comparatively good way to achieve a post-scarcity society. Essentially we need the British Empire in space except we strip mine other planets instead of poorer countries.
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Jun 10, 2015 16:29
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At least NASA actually delivers on their promises. ....unlike Congress and the Senate 
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Jun 10, 2015 16:47
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rudatron posted:Counter-point - you shoot the asteroids, in space, with missiles, built in space. All you can do in sealab is look at how all the marine life just dies, because the sun is blocked out. Obviously keeping the asteroid from hitting the earth at all is the optimal solution, but space fetishists counter with Well This Asteroid Is Detected Too Late or Too Large Neener Neener. The purpose of the spread-out bunker idea is to demonstrate that an asteroid impact is totally survivable even if it does hit the earth.
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Jun 10, 2015 17:26
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Effectronica posted:Here's a reason: some people want to do that. Here's another reason: the process of developing an artificial ecosystem that can support itself would show us a lot about how to have a sustainable industrial civilization. Here's a third reason: it seems to make you angry and upset. Whenever I read arguments like this I wonder to myself how the advocate can possibly not notice that he is beginning from the premise We Must Go To Space and then constructing lame hypothetical reasons to justify it thereafter, instead of allowing the conclusion to follow from the evidence
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Jun 10, 2015 17:29
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technology progresses in cool ways when we tell engineers to solve hard problems going outside low earth orbit and actually doing things beyond flying in the general direction of "away" is hard
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Jun 10, 2015 17:32
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Tezzor posted:Obviously keeping the asteroid from hitting the earth at all is the optimal solution, but space fetishists counter with Well This Asteroid Is Detected Too Late or Too Large Neener Neener. The purpose of the spread-out bunker idea is to demonstrate that an asteroid impact is totally survivable even if it does hit the earth. Except for the fact that the spread out bunker idea is only going to save a select few, not civilization. So kinda throws everyone else under the bus in favor of starting over, which is really loving stupid.
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Jun 10, 2015 17:40
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Tezzor posted:Whenever I read arguments like this I wonder to myself how the advocate can possibly not notice that he is beginning from the premise We Must Go To Space and then constructing lame hypothetical reasons to justify it thereafter, instead of allowing the conclusion to follow from the evidence Whenever I read someone posting under the assumption that only things which are necessary are worth doing, I wonder why the hell he's using a computer for leisure. Tezzor posted:Obviously keeping the asteroid from hitting the earth at all is the optimal solution, but space fetishists counter with Well This Asteroid Is Detected Too Late or Too Large Neener Neener. The purpose of the spread-out bunker idea is to demonstrate that an asteroid impact is totally survivable even if it does hit the earth. There are lots of things that are survivable, but would be extremely unpleasant, such as living inside a cave formation for however long it takes the impact winter to end, and dealing with the resulting genetic bottleneck. Also, the fact that the survivors would primarily be white first-worlders would seem to suggest that this is the rare triple dystopia, but no matter.
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Jun 10, 2015 17:42
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Interplanetary colonization violates the Covenant Between Man and God.
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Jun 10, 2015 17:46
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CommieGIR posted:Except for the fact that the spread out bunker idea is only going to save a select few, not civilization. As would a Mars colony, while being substantially more expensive and impractical, and substantially more difficult to rebuild civilization from. Tezzor fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Jun 10, 2015 |
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Jun 10, 2015 18:02
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Tezzor posted:As would a Mars colony, while being substantially more expensive and impractical, and substantially more difficult to rebuild civilization from. We do it because we can, because a single point of failure for humanity is stupid, and because its inevitable that we end up traveling space anyways. And considering we are STILL spending FAR FAR MORE on a bloated Department of Defense budget, arguing against space travel from a financial standpoint is stupid. We spend far more money on far worse endeavors. At least the space race tends to actually give something back.
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Jun 10, 2015 18:11
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Effectronica posted:Whenever I read someone posting under the assumption that only things which are necessary are worth doing, I wonder why the hell he's using a computer for leisure. How nice of you to volunteer massive amounts of other people's money on totally unnecessary things that benefit nobody but which you conceptually like! quote:There are lots of things that are survivable, but would be extremely unpleasant, such as living inside a cave formation for however long it takes the impact winter to end I'd much rather live in a cave formation on an Earth with an impact winter than on Mars. http://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-impact-winter-20140517-story.html quote:Using new technologies to measure the temperature of seawater millions of years ago, the Dutch team found that Earth cooled by as much as 7 degrees Celsius — or 12.6 degrees Fahrenheit — after the [K-T] asteroid struck. http://marsnews.com/the-planet-mars quote:the average recorded temperature on Mars is -63° C (-81° F) with a maximum temperature of 20° C (68° F) and a minimum of -140° C (-220° F). you posted:, and dealing with the resulting genetic bottleneck. Also, the fact that the survivors would primarily be white first-worlders would seem to suggest that this is the rare triple dystopia, but no matter. Good thing a Mars colony would be mostly populated by impoverished bushmen from the darkest heart of Africa lol Tezzor fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jun 10, 2015 |
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Jun 10, 2015 18:16
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CommieGIR posted:We do it because we can, because a single point of failure for humanity is stupid, and because its inevitable that we end up traveling space anyways. It isn't inevitable at all actually, especially when measured in a timeframe less than centuries away, when one considers the evidence instead of nerd eschatology. And your "single failure point" is silly scaremongering propaganda I already dismantled.
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Jun 10, 2015 18:19
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Tezzor posted:It isn't inevitable at all actually, especially when measured in a timeframe less than centuries away, when one considers the evidence instead of nerd eschatology. And your "single failure point" is silly scaremongering propaganda I already dismantled. if tezzor ran the planet earth space travel would indeed stop at low earth orbit forever oh and in the very long term it is not actually silly scaremongering  Effectronica posted:Whenever I read someone posting under the assumption that only things which are necessary are worth doing, I wonder why the hell he's using a computer for leisure.  still completely in unironic agreement
suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jun 10, 2015 |
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Jun 10, 2015 18:23
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Tezzor posted:And your "single failure point" is silly scaremongering propaganda I already dismantled. No, you haven't. Tezzor posted:How nice of you to volunteer massive amounts of other people's money on totally unnecessary things that benefit nobody but which you conceptually like! Oh, shut up. You've got a lot more expensive things to argue about than NASA, like Foreign aid and DOD spending. Also, this is so  considering your WONDERFUL bunker plan. Lemme guess: Libertarian?
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Jun 10, 2015 18:26
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if elon "bond supervillain" musk wants to spend his money on sending people to mars then more power to him, and even better if he takes along a truckload of scientists because nasa paid for extra seats
suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jun 10, 2015 |
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Jun 10, 2015 18:26
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CommieGIR posted:Oh, shut up. You've got a lot more expensive things to argue about than NASA, like Foreign aid and DOD spending. "return on investment" which is actually good for spaceflight (similarly good to spending money on poor people by the way) is a fantasy of the KKKapitalist oppressor, and only the stuff that it says on the tin matters because indirect effects are another KKKapitalist oppressor fantasy
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Jun 10, 2015 18:29
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don't think i should advocate that other people spend their money to do a largely unnecessary thing in the most expensive and impractical means imaginable and promising vague hypothetical benefits? heh. let me ask you this, hypocrite: do you do anything other than live in a hut eating protein gruel?
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Jun 10, 2015 18:29
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CommieGIR posted:No, you haven't. I'm actually a leftist I just prefer that people aren't impelled to pay for the go-nowhere fantasies of dorks.
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Jun 10, 2015 18:30
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Tezzor posted:don't think i should advocate that other people spend their money to do a largely unnecessary thing in the most expensive and impractical means imaginable and promising vague hypothetical benefits? heh. let me ask you this, hypocrite: do you do do anything other than live in a hut eating protein gruel? congratulations, you just owned yourself also substitute "largely unnecessary thing in the most expensive and impractical means imaginable" with "reasonably affordable for developed countries, and has literally improved your fridge and half the other electrical things in your life"
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Jun 10, 2015 18:32
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Tezzor posted:I'm actually a leftist I just prefer that people aren't impelled to pay for the go-nowhere fantasies of dorks. spess travel actually has a roi of around 10:1 so unless your country has a retardedly low tax rate it literally makes you money, hth
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Jun 10, 2015 18:33
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blowfish posted:if tezzor ran the planet earth space travel would indeed stop at low earth orbit forever I actually see no particular clear reason whatsoever for any human to ever get farther than low earth orbit, and as robots get better there will be less and eventually no reason for humans to even leave the atmosphere at all
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Jun 10, 2015 18:36
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blowfish posted:congratulations, you just owned yourself let's clarify thing. "largely unnecessary thing" = surviving the threat of asteroid impacts. "the most expensive and impractical means imaginable" = Mars colonies. to be fair, that's not entirely true, it's possible to imagine marginally more expensive and impractical solutions, such as a time machine
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Jun 10, 2015 18:40
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if your point of view is "never spend money on anything that doesn't immediately benefit me or my friends or whatever limited group of people i identify with" then you are a short sighted piece of human garbage and the reason the world sucks as much as it does
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Jun 10, 2015 18:40
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I want to go to mars and dig up all its metals and use them to build awesome stuff and mars doesn't even have an environment to spoil, it's loving ace.
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Jun 10, 2015 18:52
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I think the best part of all this is fixating on the idea of living on Mars permanently, rather than using it to better understand how to build long-term habitats in hostile environments, with the eventual goal of developing space habitats with controlled environments. Tezzor posted:don't think i should advocate that other people spend their money to do a largely unnecessary thing in the most expensive and impractical means imaginable and promising vague hypothetical benefits? heh. let me ask you this, hypocrite: do you do anything other than live in a hut eating protein gruel? Industrial civilization is actually entirely unnecessary, so your logic would compel you to say that space travel is more important than maintaining factories. Necessity is a, well, a Tezzor-esque ideal to uphold.
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Jun 10, 2015 18:52
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While I agree that a moonshot type mars mission isn't the most efficient method of space exploitation. It is the kind of goal that tends to capture the imagination and motivation of the masses more than the more mundane practical methods of space exploitation. There are definite upsides to space exploitation. For one we live in a single relatively fragile environment that we've shown a strong propensity to pollute and destroy. It's thanks in large part to the space program that we even knew that we were loving it up in the first place not to mention how. The fact that we're even having this discussion at all is owned in no small part to the space program. The computer technology the satellites that facilitate the communications all from the space program. Advances in aeronautics, medicine, general science. Do you have any idea how much climate research owes to the existence of NASA? Our problems are not caused by technology, they are caused by our short-sightedness but our technology can provide solutions to them. A mission to mars isn't simply about figuring out how to get something there. We know that, it's about learning how to survive the trip and sustain human life once getting there. Basic scientific research that would lead to all kinds of unanticipated improvements in the quality of life for us here on Earth. To begrudge the resources expended on that is simpleminded and foolish. It's entirely possible that research into a manned mars mission could provide the next revolutionary technological breakthrough that solves any number of our current problems as a species. It's part of our basic nature as humans to try and reach further and explore new possibilities and territory. It's imprinted in our very DNA. Your arguments are the same that were used regarding every new action our species has taken since our earliest ancestors decided to climb down from the trees. Why do we go to Mars? Because it's there. We're going to get there eventually the only question is when.
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Jun 10, 2015 19:04
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tl;dr: tell people they'll build the mars rocket and you get a ton of smart engineers (99% of which get diverted to different fields that sound boring but are still important), tell people they'll do ordinary boring things but very slightly better and you get a ton of smart investment bankers (hahaha we have money gently caress you)
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Jun 10, 2015 19:07
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Just a brief reminder: For over ten years, the United States literally spent more money air-conditioning fabric tents in a desert than it did on NASA. Without an Iraq War we could be drinking top-shelf margaritas in a loving pleasuredome on Mars right now. Instead we burned multiple trillions of dollars to end up with ISIS execution videos.
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Jun 10, 2015 19:17
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