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So the TPP has been a very hot (see: controversial) piece of legislation in the US - in large part due to the veil of secrecy around the bill ostensibly to protect trade interests. The deal is aimed at making it easier for MNCs/nations to do business with one another by circumventing/removing tariffs and other pieces of protectionist laws and regulations. It has been suggested that this secrecy potentially plays against the American people as we cannot make an informed call to our representatives without more data. As of today - 6/12/2015, the US House of Representatives has rejected the Obama Administration's plea to fast-track the legislation through Congress. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33114488 I would like to hear D&D's thoughts on the bill: its possible merits, detriments, and progress (or lack thereof) Thunder Moose fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jun 12, 2015 |
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Jun 12, 2015 22:42
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I guess I'm instantly suspicious of any legislation that is so shrouded in secrecy a congressperson has to go to a secure location to read it and cannot take notes or document anything that's in the bill. And then you have both Obama and Boehner, who seemingly agree on nothing, both chiding the House today for voting no. It smells to high heaven, and it's the same big business establishment crony douchebags who all seem to want to pass it.
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Jun 12, 2015 22:50
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VH4Ever posted:I guess I'm instantly suspicious of any legislation that is so shrouded in secrecy a congressperson has to go to a secure location to read it and cannot take notes or document anything that's in the bill. And then you have both Obama and Boehner, who seemingly agree on nothing, both chiding the House today for voting no. It smells to high heaven, and it's the same big business establishment crony douchebags who all seem to want to pass it. This has been my thought as well. I am not automatically opposed to more open trade - it can be an excellent tool to enrich all involved. However, secrecy on something this important to protect trade interests at the expense of informing the people who live in a supposed republic: I don't know, I am sure there is some cliche idiom that summarizes this point but essentially garnering a small benefit at a massive cost to the democratic process.
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Jun 12, 2015 22:55
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Anytime any government wants to keep something secret, you know it is going to be some heinous poo poo. There is literally no other reason for it besides the perversion of democracy.
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Jun 12, 2015 23:32
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So it's this generation's NAFTA
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Jun 12, 2015 23:33
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I'm pretty bummed that the thing was torpedoed by voting against an extension of the TAA (Trade Adjustment Assistance), which funded programs intended to give economic and educational assistance to workers who lost jobs that were moved overseas. Thats been around for quite a while and both labor unions and democrats and really anyone who gets frictional unemployment supports it, but by blocking the TPP they've guruanteed that it's going to expire, probably for good. It did kill the TPP but my pessimistic side suspects that a similar deal is inevitable and the sacrifice will end up being nothing more than a stalling tactic.Thunder Moose posted:This has been my thought as well. I am not automatically opposed to more open trade - it can be an excellent tool to enrich all involved. However, secrecy on something this important to protect trade interests at the expense of informing the people who live in a supposed republic: I don't know, I am sure there is some cliche idiom that summarizes this point but essentially garnering a small benefit at a massive cost to the democratic process. Keeping things secretive makes sense only if it's done as a way to prevent lobbyists from loving with a trade bill. I don't know or trust that this was the goal, but it could definitely make sense in the US where those lobbyists have way more ability to dictate the terms of the deal than voters ever, ever, ever could. Edit: I guess it helps keep shortsighted politicians from loving with it to serve their own narrow interests as well. Bifner McDoogle fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jun 12, 2015 |
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Jun 12, 2015 23:41
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VH4Ever posted:I guess I'm instantly suspicious of any legislation that is so shrouded in secrecy a congressperson has to go to a secure location to read it and cannot take notes or document anything that's in the bill. And then you have both Obama and Boehner, who seemingly agree on nothing, both chiding the House today for voting no. It smells to high heaven, and it's the same big business establishment crony douchebags who all seem to want to pass it. I agree with this in spirit, but the point is not to have 300 million people (or even the 535 elected representatives and senators) in on the negotiation. The reason you keep this out of the public eye is because you don't want the person you're negotiating with to know the red line you're not willing to go past. It's simple basic negotiating tactics. If you walk into a pay negotiation and the offer is a low ball, you overshoot in the other direction. Then, eventually, both parties will settle on a mutually acceptable amount. It'd be silly to give up what your real amount was at the beginning of negotiations. I swear to God, this country is outright dumb when it comes to concepts like finesse.
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Jun 12, 2015 23:42
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Audit the Fed
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Jun 12, 2015 23:43
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The real worry down here the South Pacific is the threat to the Pharmaceutical schemes of Australia and New Zealand through changes in Drug patenting. Australia has the Pharmaceutical Benefits scheme, where the Australian Government becomes the sole purchaser of a particular drug for the entire country, who then subsidizes it out to the General Public. They lean heavily toward drugs that are out of Patent, so they buy generics, and there's always a discussion about cost vs benefit as it's a wide variety of drugs available then New Zealand at around six times the cost of New Zealand's system. New Zealand has the Pharmaceutical Management Agency, which has a board of doctors and pharmacoligists go "OK, next up we need a blood pressure medication that works this way. There's 8 on the market, we will choose Brand X.", who then put out a tender which is "Right, we need Y doses of blood pressure medication X over the next three years. Who will manufacturer it for us cheapest" This ends up being substantially cheaper then Australia, at the cost of far fewer drugs in the scheme for outside cases. These systems rely heavily on patents expiring, so the threat for patent extension, or "evergreening" (where a drug is re-patented through a minor change in delivery method, or the addition of a new chemical that doesn't substantially change the method of action) would cripple both systems and enable pharmaceutical companies to sell at full price. The fact that both sides of the Australian and New Zealand governments have not outright rejected these changes is extremely worrying.
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Jun 12, 2015 23:56
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It has very little to do with trade and a lot to do with defending America's rentier capitalists in their quest to squeeze ever last dollar they can out of their intellectual property. Oh, that and some really bad ISDS crap that would give companies the power to sue governments over environmental or labour legislation that potentially cuts into their profits.
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Jun 13, 2015 00:56
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Doctors Without Borders posted:
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Jun 13, 2015 01:08
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Helsing posted:It has very little to do with trade and a lot to do with defending America's rentier capitalists in their quest to squeeze ever last dollar they can out of their intellectual property. Oh, that and some really bad ISDS crap that would give companies the power to sue governments over environmental or labour legislation that potentially cuts into their profits. It's a weird day when I agree with Helsing.
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Jun 13, 2015 01:18
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clammy posted:So it's this generation's NAFTA Except with less protesting.
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Jun 13, 2015 01:20
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evilbastard posted:These systems rely heavily on patents expiring, so the threat for patent extension, or "evergreening" (where a drug is re-patented through a minor change in delivery method, or the addition of a new chemical that doesn't substantially change the method of action) would cripple both systems and enable pharmaceutical companies to sell at full price. I don't see how this follows. If the original drug in its original delivery method is off patent, why can't a generic drug maker make that?
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Jun 13, 2015 01:21
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Can anyone explain in simple terms what "fast tracking" actually means? Does it put a cap on how long congress can consider the bill before voting? Does it block amendments?
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Jun 13, 2015 01:33
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Can anyone explain in simple terms what "fast tracking" actually means? Does it put a cap on how long congress can consider the bill before voting? Does it block amendments? Blocks amendments, guaranteed up or down vote
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Jun 13, 2015 01:42
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http://billmoyers.com/2015/06/11/this-small-towns-history-shows-why-the-tpp-could-be-a-disaster-for-us-workers/ Some dank Moyers poo poo
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Jun 13, 2015 01:47
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Spazzle posted:I don't see how this follows. If the original drug in its original delivery method is off patent, why can't a generic drug maker make that? Because gently caress you, that's why.
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Jun 13, 2015 02:00
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I think the economic cost/benefit for the US is probably a net zero, all things considered. I think the only real benefit would be improving relations with countries like Vietnam and Malaysia.
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Jun 13, 2015 02:00
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Thunder Moose posted:I would like to hear D&D's thoughts on the bill: its possible merits, detriments, and progress (or lack thereof) Hmm I wonder what D&D's position on free trade is.
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Jun 13, 2015 02:01
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Thunder Moose posted:
Maybe when it exists we can have a lively discussion on it.
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Jun 13, 2015 02:01
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VH4Ever posted:I guess I'm instantly suspicious of any legislation that is so shrouded in secrecy a congressperson has to go to a secure location to read it and cannot take notes or document anything that's in the bill. And then you have both Obama and Boehner, who seemingly agree on nothing, both chiding the House today for voting no. It smells to high heaven, and it's the same big business establishment crony douchebags who all seem to want to pass it. Thunder Moose posted:This has been my thought as well. I am not automatically opposed to more open trade - it can be an excellent tool to enrich all involved. However, secrecy on something this important to protect trade interests at the expense of informing the people who live in a supposed republic: I don't know, I am sure there is some cliche idiom that summarizes this point but essentially garnering a small benefit at a massive cost to the democratic process. Sailor Viy posted:Anytime any government wants to keep something secret, you know it is going to be some heinous poo poo. There is literally no other reason for it besides the perversion of democracy. None of you understand negotiation or representative democracy.
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Jun 13, 2015 02:06
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asdf32 posted:None of you understand negotiation or representative democracy. I understand the need to keep it under wraps until the negotiation is over but why does TPA have to remove the senate's ability to filibuster the deal?
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Jun 13, 2015 02:37
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MaxxBot posted:I understand the need to keep it under wraps until the negotiation is over but why does TPA have to remove the senate's ability to filibuster the deal? Probably affects the U.S.'s negotiating posture since the rest of the world knows we have a terrible history wrt ratifying treaties, and that our Congress barely functions
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Jun 13, 2015 02:39
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Jagchosis posted:Probably affects the U.S.'s negotiating posture since the rest of the world knows we have a terrible history wrt ratifying treaties, and that our Congress barely functions This is exactly why. Nobody is willing to agree to anything if there's a risk that the agreement will be modified in Congress.
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Jun 13, 2015 02:45
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Fojar38 posted:Hmm I wonder what D&D's position on free trade is. TLDR Summary of TPP: The bad(est) parts: - There is no such thing as a dark net or annon. internet. All data communications from EU to Indonesia, which comprise about 80% of global traffic will be under US DCMA law. All traffic must be monitored and controlled. So for the most autistic gamers, you can kiss goodbye shadow servers, shards and most importantly, all forms of grey market software (yes that includes steam sales using Polish vendors). - Everyone must now be identified on the internet. Everyone will be held libel for their actions on the internet. So yes, little D&D goon, I could literally sue you for 40 million dollars for every time someone gets butthurt on my posting. Sounds fun, right ? - Drug costs will be marked to US insurance. You want to make a generic under UN trade law to cure Hepatitis C? You cant afford the insurance claims to buy Gilead's wonder cure for Hep? Tough poo poo. They have a global patent for 30 years. And they get to select which generic druggist will make it for them. Think OPEC, and how Saudi Sheiks set the price for crude, and laughed to the bank? Now for all drugs. - Tax harmonization. Do you feel smug that your not paying 40% tax being an ex-pat of an EU Country? gently caress you. You are now paying, or remitting income. - Capital markets actions. Do you have that dream of building a company someday in a country not the USA? Do you want to make the next buzzfeed ? or snapchat, for your own little market ? Want to make a dick mod for Skyrim ? gently caress you. Pay a royalty to the original content creator who registered in the USA. Does a patent troll hold the idea as a portfolio and has done dick all with Dicks for Skyrim for 5 years ? gently caress you. Pay that lawyer you filthy nerd. - Labor laws. Did your company open a plant, or operate a manufacturing center with an offshore conduit? Too bad, if the labor laws give any advantage to foreign workers, you must default to US standards & currency adjusted wages. So much for your automotive jobs Poland, or England. Murica. Also, collective actions are now nigh impossible to perform. - Whistleblowing must comply to USA standards of disclosure. Edward Snowden's will no longer be legal, and will be hunted by our best, overpaid agents until they are arrested and then humiliated. Ditto for Wikileaks or anyone who facilitates an 'illegal' whistleblower. - Corporations and entities can file for libel, and shut down anything which they can prove damages their 'goodwill' or 'brand'. Do you like your annon. blogs or your edgy articles ? If someone has a problem with what you wrote, a country is required by TPP to ban it. Think the European Union's "google act", but for everything. I could have Hal_2005 wiped off the internet, for the princely sum of 3 million bux, and all mentions of SomethingAwful carry a 10 million dollar legal fine under the TPP. Sounds fun, right ? Ask China how fun this is. The good: - Intellectual property theft, particularly in China is now illegal. Period. Half of China is projected to turn into a cesspit of Hello Kitty dildo warehouses and factor riots. If you have ever had to wade into China to fish out something they stole of yours, this is the most amazing thing since Kissinger beat Mao at chess. - Bribery, including such tax shell games as Russia's bid for the Olympics or all of Petrobras/Sinopec's business practices will be banned. - Illegal accounting, or accounting which does not comply to NAFTA/GAPP standards is banned. Shitholes like Huanhui Solar or Sunshine Property holdings will be finally dead. Sadly, this also means companies who rely on subsidization to survive will need to comply to USA laws. - Dirty oil now carries a tax. If you have a job in the energy industry in California, Russia, the MENA, or enjoy gasoline below 7/gallon. Suck it up and enjoy the man luve. If you are involved in the coal, start thinking of how to pivot into nuclear energy. Solar & Wind will laugh to the bank, like a throbbing horny Elon Musk. - In line with tax harmonization, taxation, including on digital content is now done upstream. Did you get mad that Schorky didn't get his fair share of profits ? Now he will. Legal copyrights for every meme will generate trillions of IP fees. - Illegal export dumping or environment waste arbitrage. Do you like your iPhones, but get upset that HTC and Xiaomei don't need to pay for environment cleanup like Intel and Qualcomm ? Good. This is very good, unless you are working in Guandong or Jakarta. - Global disclosure of tax donations, tax grants and government donations. Ever wonder who funds your local government? Now you will get a breakdown. Thousands of protestors will find new reasons to make university campus politics fun. - Trade walls are illegal. Do you want to sell your Esty ironic tee-shirt to Indian hipsters? Most excellent, because Indian merchants will be obligated to consider your product alongside UnderArmor and Puma's ironic knockoff of your ironic shirt, ironically. - Harmonized shipping schedules and ragtime laws. Are you mad how the USA has no more shipping industry, or shipping flag carriers ? Good news for all you old shipbuilders. If you are still alive and not Catamaran or Larry Ellison. - Marketing and product ethics. Ever wonder if Coke is actually Coke in Indonesia? or butter is really butter in Japan ? Wonder no more. Everything adheres to American product standards, for better and GMO worse. - Corporate governance must adhere to USA FATCA standards. This makes me so loving hard. The only thing that is saving Nintendo, Sony, Samsung and a whole heap of lovely Asian family pork projects is government lethargy and corporate crossholdings. Think 1980 style go-go activism. On a global scale. Deal and carve-out mania. - 24/7 markets. The biggest problem for listing or raising capital is that when people are sleeping, they tend not to be interested in giving you money. TPP basically makes everyone compliant with a USA corporate shell and thus, everyone is now basically a USA company. Corporate lawyers everywhere will lose their poo poo, but if you badly want to buy an Indonesian coal company held by the Bakrie family, now is your opportunity. This is a really good thing, as it makes equity and bonds as liquid as FX. - Mandatory currency and capital reserves. Is your pet project at the World Bank currently trapped in financial limbo ? All because the USA refuses to give more money to a third world shithole? Thats illegal now. The rest of the world thanks you America for finally paying your post-WWII debts. USA banks will also now have to operate on the same leverage and margin rates as Canadian and French banks. Great for banks, since that implies about 40% more gearing, and profits per share. Who wins: - If you have an established IP or want to build a company in the next 30 years without having it all ripped off by India/China/Africa. - If you are bitter that your job was outsourced to a non-OECD sweatshop - If you are butthurt that capital is stuck in large "to big to fail" institutions - If you are bitter at taxation, and are a fan of "the buffet rule" Who loses: - Foreign companies who were built to steal or knockoff USA tech, particularly drug and software companies. - Outsourcing vendors - Russia & China. Just those two. gently caress them. - Unions. Pretty much any sort of hippie 'workers paradise' will get assfucked and then thrown in a shallow Las Vegas "casino" style grave. - Independent taxation or monetary policy (foreign exchange operations). - The grey and black market global economy; except hard drugs and prostitution. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/11/tpp-leak-confirms-worst-us-negotiators-still-trying-trade-away-internet-freedoms http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/13/trans-pacific-paternership-intellectual-property
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Jun 13, 2015 04:10
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China is specifically not a signatory of TPP but surprisingly that's not the most wrong part of that post.
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Jun 13, 2015 04:41
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My understanding was that some of the IP stuff was pretty lovely in regards to letting poor countries make generic medication. I barely understand half of whats going on with it, but I think the main reason Obama really, really wants it is because he feels like its important to build strong trade relationships with countries in China's sphere of influence so that the USA has more influence in the region and the net value of the deal in terms of this or that is that the average person will end up with benefits and more negatives in general while the USA projects its interests into that region. Maybe I'm reading the whole deal all wrong though.
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Jun 13, 2015 05:40
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MaxxBot posted:I understand the need to keep it under wraps until the negotiation is over but why does TPA have to remove the senate's ability to filibuster the deal? quote:In the past Congress has given presidents such fast track authority in order to conclude trade negotiations. It allows the White House to negotiate a deal and then present it to Congress, which can ratify or block, but not amend. This gives other signatories to trade treaties confidence that any deal arrived at with the White House will not later be altered to suit vested interests. http://m.smh.com.au/world/transpacific-partnership-battle-barack-obama-handed-defeat-by-democrats-20150612-ghn3wa.html
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Jun 13, 2015 05:56
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Everything that's leaked about TTP has shown it to be a massive overreach of corporate power - nations basically cede some of their own sovereignty to corporate interests. In particular, the ISDS would allow corporations to bypass courts and get massive payouts with any legislation they don't like, in special tribunals stacked with people they want. The fact that the administration is so desperate to keep it secret probably means that true, so in a just world everyone supporting it would be charged with treason.
rudatron fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jun 13, 2015 |
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Jun 13, 2015 09:00
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Caros posted:Because gently caress you, that's why. Thats pretty much the ghist of it. Drug R&D is a crapshoot at the best of times and makes oil and gas exploration look like a risk free adventure. On average only 18% of all chemicals throw in a mixer ever actually work, and only 5% of those chemicals ever make it to market. And of those 5%, only 50% of them get to be profitable. So all in? you are looking at less than a 3% chance of making a profit on a random drug compound. For context? You would fire a geologist who came to you with a prospect that had a less than 30% chance of success (and 15% chance of commercial success). Which is why Biotech is such a go-go industry, if you luck out, you can get a company like Celgene, ISIS, Biogen, Amgen or Gilead. However inorder to get that wonder drug to market you nearly need 70% failures to find that 1 drug which will make the company. Thats alot of cash. Treatment programs are even worse. Unlike an oil well, or even a computer chip its very hard to patent or create a IP lock on a drug. Anyone can go pull the research articles or just take the drug itself and reverse engineer it. And without that R&D leadup, its stupidly lucrative. You can find find Harvoni for US$24,000.00 a dose. or you can find it on Alibaba with 1 precursor step for US$30.00 illegally. Just like pirated software, do you think any company or uninsured person would bother with the 24,000.00 injection which is designed to recoup investment on all that R&D when they can get it from a Indian/Chinese grey market website for 30 bux? Hell no. Look at what pirate bay did to Windows. They went from a 80% margin business of windows products, and because of China, Windows 10 was given away for free. Selecting the drug generic manufacturing agent is critical to this process because if you get a proper vendor, then they will pay for the 'blueprint' and enable the original investor a revenue stream in return for the proper "technique" to manufacture it. This is what Teva and their ilk do. And what many grey vendors in India and China do not. And since China has refused to adhere to proper profit sharing rules enjoyed by OECD trade rules, TPP will just isolate them and their grey market goods from future trade. This was also one of the major reasons for Obamacare, to nationalize the cost of drug research as a growth industry going forward. Since drug and infotainment industries suffer from a very big tragedy of the commons in current trade regulation (there is no way to enforce it). And yes, the bill is technically treason. Because its impossible to cede any power of your domestic economy to another, which is pretty much what TPP is doing. Everyone must give the USA the control for US authorities to go on foreign soil, to arrest or control US goods. The alternative is the USA will never deal with you fairly going forward. Hal_2005 fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Jun 13, 2015 |
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Jun 13, 2015 09:17
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Can anyone explain to me why the house Dems voted for TPA, but then voted against TAA? Because I'm a bit confused here. As a general rule the Republicans like TPA, but aren't fans of TAA. The Democrats and the unions like TAA, but hate TPA. So why did a bunch of Democrats vote for TPA, and then vote against TAA? All I can think is that they were trying to kill TPP in the most political way possible. "Hey, I voted to give Obama fast track authority, but it never made it out of the House." Please tell me I'm being overly cynical, and there was another perfectly good reason for the vote breakdown.
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Jun 13, 2015 13:51
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rudatron posted:Everything that's leaked about TTP has shown it to be a massive overreach of corporate power - nations basically cede some of their own sovereignty to corporate interests. In particular, the ISDS would allow corporations to bypass courts and get massive payouts with any legislation they don't like, in special tribunals stacked with people they want. The fact that the administration is so desperate to keep it secret probably means that true, so in a just world everyone supporting it would be charged with treason. No, the secret part is because it's an on-going international negotiation just like past international negotiations. Also, international treaties can always be seen as ceding some sovereignty asdf32 fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jun 13, 2015 |
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Jun 13, 2015 14:54
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thrakkorzog posted:Can anyone explain to me why the house Dems voted for TPA, but then voted against TAA? Because I'm a bit confused here.
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Jun 13, 2015 15:03
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I am against it, largely for reasons already mentioned. I saw this comic the other day, and I think it has a good overview of the topic, as well as the underlying economics of trade. I'd repost it here but it's fairly long http://economixcomix.com/home/tpp/
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Jun 13, 2015 15:10
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thrakkorzog posted:Can anyone explain to me why the house Dems voted for TPA, but then voted against TAA? Because I'm a bit confused here. They voted against it because it's the only way they had to kill TPP, there were no other realistic options. Also, the GOP passed an amendment to tie $700 million in cuts to Medicare as part of TAA. There's a decent discussion here.
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Jun 13, 2015 15:16
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Broken Machine posted:I am against it, largely for reasons already mentioned. Clearly pushing its side but actually that's very good overall. Particularly on basic explanations of trade, currency and comparative advantage. I recommend reading it. Though among other nitpicks, It does the "treaties cede sovereignty thing" - no poo poo. Treaties are basically just laws and can step on other laws just like you'd expect. Courts have to sort out conflicting laws all the time. In the Australia cigarette example that court happens to be international. But forcing signatories to cede some power is very much part of the point. It creates additional consistency and certainty for trade partners.
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Jun 13, 2015 15:38
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Broken Machine posted:I am against it, largely for reasons already mentioned. Pro read.
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Jun 13, 2015 15:59
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The TPA is complete horseshit and is the exact type of reason Republicans claim to hate Obama for. However in this instance Obama is indeed absolute loving garbage, so of course Republicans are all on aboard. Edit: Actually Republican hatred of Obama is part of the reason this has gotten so much opposition so I should limit my scorn towards Republican politicians in this instance. Axetrain fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jun 13, 2015 |
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Jun 13, 2015 16:04
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thrakkorzog posted:Can anyone explain to me why the house Dems voted for TPA, but then voted against TAA? Because I'm a bit confused here. Many of them actually aren't really against the TPP, but doing it this way allowed Pelosi to signal to Boehner that the House better get the transportation funding bill done first, and then they can revisit TAA and have a decent chance at passage.
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Jun 13, 2015 16:16
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