The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

«‹›4 »

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Powercrazy posted:

I'm specifically talking about her discussion of Hitman where she claims that the purpose of the game is to kill prostitutes, even though within the game, the prostitutes are just props. She could have discussed the problems with women as props, but instead she decides to say that the game encourages you to kill them.

I cannot believe I am replying to this thread but you are wildly mischaracterizing her argument in that video, and you are not even logically consistent in your summary of it. You claim she says the games "purpose" is to kill prostitutes and then a sentence later downgrade it to saying she says the game "encourages" it.

EDIT: Neither of which is accurate. She says the use of prostitutes as a prop which can only be interacted with meaningfully with violence creates a reality where the only two possible interactions are to ignore them or to wholesale slaughter them. Both of these outcomes objectify the women in the most literal meaning of the word.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 17:09

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 15, 2024 01:01

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Powercrazy posted:

https://twitter.com/EthanJamesPetty/status/616055125539454976

I am genuinely surprised the writer of Watch_Dogs is twittering his opinions and not hiding in a shame cave away from human society.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 17:13

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

BexGu posted:

Hmmm, disagree. The whole point of the game is to hide/sneak around from the NPCS (not ignore) and the game encourages the player never to use violence on the stripper NPCS and will penalize the player for doing so. The fact that CAN a player is a different matter. The player is never suppose to interact with the NPCs with violence except for the target/aggressive bodyguards. Every single other npc is there to provide challenge/obstacle/risk and background information through listening in on conversations. That particular section is also a very small part of the overall game that is a optional route to take.

You disagree with her and then repeat her argument

Whether or not you are "supposed to" in the context of the ideal playthrough doesn't change that the only two potential interactions are to ignore them or to cause violence, which both objectify them.

BexGu posted:

Which really brings up the question: Since something is made possible in the game world but is not encouraged but the player does it any way is that the fault of the developers or the player?

When the only deviation from the standard gameplay is violence, yes.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 17:30

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Furthermore, if the inclusion of a strip club is so necessary to the proposed realism of the setting, the question should then be asked why the female bodies in the club are so uniformly idealized. If you wanted to create a "realistic" and "gritty" urban setting it makes no sense for literally every stripper to be uniformly super-model beautiful.

Obdicut posted:

Again, I haven't seen it, but isn't it likely that she's pointing out problematic parts of the game to show patterns that are larger than the game, rather than focusing on giving the game a specific creepy rating?

Thats exactly what she is doing and it seems willful ignorance that people seem to continue to ignore it. She has stated before that "wider" context as an argument/defense is irrelevant because she analyzing tropes as per the title of the series. It doesn't matter if every gritty crime game has a good narrative reason for a strip club level as much as it does that every gritty crime game has a strip club level

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 17:38

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Maxwell Adams posted:

If you think video games can either cause or solve any major social issues, you're an idiot.

Its a good thing literally no one has said this ever

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 17:43

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Powercrazy posted:

These are all rhetorical questions, because the answer is, if you want games that don't contain things you disagree with, they already exist. Why don't you talk about them and ignore the ones you don't like?

Because the debate is about how the most advertised and top-selling games seems to consistently hold ongoing and unquestioned tropes that are implicitly misogynistic.

Jesus do you actually watch the videos or indifferently skim until you can find something to misinterpret and grow furious over AKA the thing you accuse her of doing

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 17:49

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

BexGu posted:

By that logic every single non-combat NPC (male/female/animal) has been objectified. It doesn't mean anything.

If you think a normal clothed male in a generic setting NPC and a beautiful half-naked female NPC in a setting explicitly designed to focus on her as a sexual object exist in the same social and political context you are being willfully dense

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 17:53

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I'm glad I am not the only one growing exhausted by random youtube rants from dudes on the internet being cited as evidence

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:15

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Holy poo poo just freeze the screen at :59 when he shows his example of the female protagonists gaming has always had.

He misses the point so hard he leaves orbit.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:19

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Powercrazy posted:

sex negative feminist

You heard this word once and think it gives you intellectual credibility despite the fact you don't know what it means.

If you think condemning sexualized female characters created by males primarily for the enjoyment of other males is an example of being sex negative you are insane.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:22

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

afeelgoodpoop posted:

He specifically shows their were more female and minority leads in games announced at e3 in 2014 than in 2015, and the narratives being pushed between them being complete opposites.

lol "from 2014 to 2015"

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:23

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

afeelgoodpoop posted:

The narrative seems like just a way for them to try and distance themselves from their grating diversity pushes while saving face, why else would you claim this e3 is good about diversity representation when you lamented at a greater amount of minority representation the year before?

I take it as a good sign that hopefully many of these narrative pushers will pull back on their political campaigns.

Has it occurred to you yet that the near universal scorn and derision you receive when discussing "grating diversity pushes" outside of the safe bubble you've created might suggest that the response to gaming being more inclusive is not as negative as you desire?

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:27

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Nicomo posted:

There are some badass both female and male protagonists I've enjoyed playing over the years. Why does anyone care about the gender ratio? What does it matter? People have far too much time on their hands to sit and analyse this stuff. If a game offends you in some way, just don't play it and get on with your life. There are plenty of far more important issues that people could be spending all this energy debating!

It doesn't exactly portray gaming as a mature medium when the very basic level of critical analysis applied to literally every other form of consumable media is so appalling to you.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:29

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

afeelgoodpoop posted:

but I do believe they themselves are not aware how large of a group we are aswell.

I tremble at the thought of waking the dreaded silent majority

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:33

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Powercrazy posted:

I don't know, but it's a lovely part of feminism because if you truly believe feminism is gender equality, you have to look beyond feminism to determine why in society genders aren't equal. I say it's because of economic coercion supported by class divisions.

You are a walking abomination of half understood philosophy

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:36

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Obdicut posted:

Why would that result in gender discrimination, given that gender isn't a class or an economic group?

Its classic grade-school level Marxism of trying to eliminate any factor that cannot be comprehended as a white male

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:40

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Who What Now posted:

Can you define what, exactly, you think feminism is?

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:43

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Talmonis posted:

This is why people get so angry. Why the gently caress would anyone give the time of day to your supposed "side" if the loudest of the self-proclaimed feminists are so into body, virgin and class shaming anyone who disagrees with them? People like you are why they feel so marginalized and pushed into a corner. To them, you want to do nothing but ruin what fun and self-identity they have. Of course they're going to be hostile.

Self-proclaimed gamergaters have enough issues with sex and race, and this sort of thing only reinforces to them that they're "right" to be that way. They're not lashing out blindly. They're lashing out at people like you.

We will try to be kinder to the people whose massive insecurities motivate them to harass and intimidate women en masse.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 18:56

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I am briefly back to say whoever bought effectronica that avatar is a huge whiny baby

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 16:37

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

The Snark posted:

It's all about misogyny you see. Gamergaters are all Misogynists, and naturally as a result would want to have all women out of any form of their hobby- also remember They are horrible monsters.

this but unironically

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 16:42

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Exmond posted:

With Pinsof there seemed to be more of a "Fire him and nobody talk to him" mentality going down. Which is real lovely and would be interesting to see what the legal ramifications of that are. It wasn't just one guy recommending things. It kind of turned into a schoolyard clique bashing on the guy. (Up to you whether or not Alistair "deserved it" or not).

I guarantee I could give you an example of a person you would be comfortable being blacklisted from games media for odious opinions. Do not pretend your issue is with the blacklisting as much as what you feel he was blacklisted for.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 16:46

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Talmonis posted:

All of the NPCs are there to ignore, kill or knock out as the only possible interaction. There is no "intended perverse pleasure" from helpless bodies. Again, the only difference in the hitman example was that they were strippers. If the male NPC's were more talkative, or more interactive, there would be a point to all this. It doesn't make sense as a general statement, she is specific about pervers pleasure desecrating only the female bodies. Which is false.

I think you're also wrong by insinuating that anything that is possible, is intended as the primary choice. Killing a female character in a game where anyone can die, for example. That's not how it's "intended" to be played, that's a way it can be played.

female and male bodies do not exist in a sociological vacuum.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 16:51

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

The Snark posted:

I would love to see your list of un-problematic games and media.

Almost everything can be found to have elements that are worthy of critique and concern as everything exists in the larger sociological system that created it. Why do you think art exists that cannot be seen as both a positive and negative reflection of the society that influenced it?

And why do you think considering the larger sociological implications of the media we consume is a bad thing to do? Do you think it means we cannot enjoy it?

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 16:55

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Nevvy Z posted:

People keep talking about Hitman like it is not part of a systematic issue where stripclubs in games are a gratuitous and unnesscary excuse to show pixelated tits.

As I said before, I wouldn't mind strip club/brothel levels so much if the supposed gritty reality it offers weren't discredited by the impossible standards of attractiveness given to the female bodies.

Even strippers and prostitutes in the real world are not universally perfect embodiments of sexual desire.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 16:59

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

INH5 posted:

You can take the clothes off of any male NPC after incapacitating them, leaving them in tighty whities.

Do you honestly believe this is the same context?

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:04

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

The Snark posted:

Can you enjoy problematic media? Does doing so make you a bad person?

Yes

No

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:09

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

INH5 posted:

For one thing, unlike attacking the strippers, stripping incapacitated male NPCs is something that you absolutely have to do many times over the course of the game, because you need to do that to get disguises, and most if not all (I haven't played this particular game myself, only watched LPs) of the game's levels cannot be completed without at least one disguise.

For another thing, there are some female NPCs that don't start off sexualized (for example, crowd members in the Chinatown level who wear normal street clothes), and unlike male NPCs you can't strip them after incapacitating them.

This still does not change the context at all and I am not sure what you are trying to prove

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:13

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Reaganball Z posted:

Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist?

Sarkeesian has never advocated for censorship and I challenge you to prove otherwise

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:26

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I find it deeply concerning that so many people seem to misconstrue critical analysis and advocacy for censorship

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:31

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Nevvy Z posted:

I don't think that's a fair analogy because I don't think there are videogames that rise to this level of discourse.

I think it might be a bit dangerous to separate media in terms of merit for this particular discussion.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:33

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Talmonis posted:

Sweet Christ yes it's a bad thing. Whistleblowers, labor organizers and "Troublemakers" (Read: People who know their rights and fight wage theft and other abuse) are black listed all the time like this. So what if that guy was lovely, even he's got to eat. You're commiting honest to god economic violence there, by trying to ensure that he can't find work in his field. Really man, I'm pretty surprised that you would engage in that.

As I have said before, there are countless examples of people you would be comfortable being blacklisted like this. Your issue is not with the action, it is with the justification for the action.

If someone were fired for sexual harassment and racially abusive language would you honestly be upset if employees from one company told another company not to hire him?

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:35

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Reaganball Z posted:

They're going through the same motions as past censors but stopping short of legislation because it's unpalatable for this generation.

Give concrete examples of this because you are either wrong or a liar and I would like you to clearly demonstrate which

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:38

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

The Snark posted:

GamerGaters represent a large group of people one can easily imagine themselves superior to.

So why consider they may not necessarily be inferior pig-people?

to be fair it is not the personality of GamerGaters as much as the actions that have proven them to be odious.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:40

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Talmonis posted:

Yes. Being a lovely person is not reason enough to make that person unable to survive our lovely capitalist system. Also, consequences should teach lessons. Being fired for doing something sexist should be a lesson learned. If they can't get a job afterward, there's no lesson, just hardship, loss and bitterness. Suddenly, you have a life long misogynist who probably loathes and despises Feminists and Women in general.

I can see what you are trying to say but frankly it is idealistic to the point of implausibility if not outright impossibility.

Why should another company be asked to deal with a person who has most likely learned nothing on the off chance that he has suddenly made a miraculous change in behavior?

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:42

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Reaganball Z posted:

My meaning can be found in the sentence you left out of my quote. Sarkeesian and her followers are no good at making creative media so they have to constantly be picking at what they don't like in order to find use for their gender studies degrees. They can't make a living from critiquing A Clockwork Orange or Mozart because Kubrick and opera fans can talk back. It's the same as earlier generations except legislating their ideas was still an option back then.

How is critique analogous to censorship? You called them censors. Show them censoring.

Edit: Also, do you honestly think Mozart and Clockwork Orange do not receive the same critiques?

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:49

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Obdicut posted:

he also thinks that Crime and Punishment is somehow pro-violence.

he also apparently thinks there was never feminist critique of anything other than video games

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:53

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

ikanreed posted:

They should know better, but they just don't understand journalism at all. Or they're liars. I can't tell.

As best as I can tell the majority are so critically illiterate they honestly believe the criticism facing games is unique to their medium

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:54

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Reaganball Z posted:

What I'm saying is that Sarkeesian's psychology is the reason why good creative periods end and it's a shame that her side is on the uptick now, though I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon enough.

Give us an example of an artistic movement or creative period demonstrably weakened by critical analysis

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:56

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Seriously Reaganball you continue to make outrageous claims without even the most miniscule of evidence to back it up and I suspect its because you know your bluster falls apart under even the most passive examination

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:57

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 15, 2024 01:01

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Talmonis posted:

He knows it can get him fired. Hopefully he's learned not to be an awful human being. Is it your place to destroy any chance he has to amend that?

Why do you feel the majority of workers should be asked to work with a person who behaves inappropriately on the oft-chance that he might have learned his lesson?

Why should a person fired for sexual harassment be allowed to freely mingle with women at another workplace with no warning because he maybe possibly could have stopped doing it?

Why do you place the rights of the individual who caused harm over the rights of the majority to avoid harm?

# ¿ Jul 2, 2015 17:59

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

«‹›4 »