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The Snark posted:I would love to see your list of un-problematic games and media. The Long Dark and Nuclear Throne don't seem to have needed gratuitious nudity. Exmond posted:What if someone thought Pinsof was hireable? Would they speak up in a group conversation where everyone is bashing him? Yes. Grownups often reasonably disagree about this sort of thing. They might even hire him. Talmonis posted:Because in the case of an organized boycott, if you don't participate in said boycott, you're then "A Sexist." "A Racist." or any other "ist." that the boycott is protesting. You're suddenly a monster and a misogynist for breaking the boycott. "Why do you hate women?" It could (and has been) be said, if you chose to buy a game under a feminist boycott. Now you're a pariah. Persona non grata to anyone who wants to remain in the group and not also be considered unclean When did this happen to someone? quote:All of the NPCs are there to ignore, kill or knock out as the only possible interaction. There is no "intended perverse pleasure" from helpless bodies. Again, the only difference in the hitman example was that they were strippers. If the male NPC's were more talkative, or more interactive, there would be a point to all this. It doesn't make sense as a general statement, she is specific about pervers pleasure desecrating only the female bodies. Which is false.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 16:57 |
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# ? May 31, 2024 05:01 |
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Slanderer posted:A reminder that you haven't addressed how exactly people have been left homeless and destitute because they refused to be forced to make feminist games. I do not believe anyone has been left homeless and destitute by this as of yet.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 16:58 |
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Gianthogweed posted:I don't know how much more specific I can be than what they've already written, cited with examples. I mean I could copy and paste it into my post, but then you don't get the citations or links. Just tell me what was illegal. And since bad is a moral judgement, tell me what part you think was bad and why.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 16:58 |
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Almost everything can be found to have elements that are worthy of critique and concern as everything exists in the larger sociological system that created it. Why do you think art exists that cannot be seen as both a positive and negative reflection of the society that influenced it? You're asking me why I have a lot of beliefs I have not said I have. That I do not, in fact, actually have. Since your last question does not rely on the conceit you have some novel form of telepathy however, I'll answer it. I think we can indeed- do you?
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 16:58 |
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I am fine with gratuitous boobs in video games, as long as there are also gratuitous penises, for all sexual orientations to enjoy
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 16:59 |
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Nevvy Z posted:People keep talking about Hitman like it is not part of a systematic issue where stripclubs in games are a gratuitous and unnesscary excuse to show pixelated tits. As I said before, I wouldn't mind strip club/brothel levels so much if the supposed gritty reality it offers weren't discredited by the impossible standards of attractiveness given to the female bodies. Even strippers and prostitutes in the real world are not universally perfect embodiments of sexual desire.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 16:59 |
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Talmonis posted:Simply not buying something you don't like is not a boycott, at least not in the sense that I'm referring to; which is the organized boycott. I haven't participated in any boycotts, and yet have not been called a sexist, a monster, or a misogynist. Is it possible you're engaging in some rather ludicrous hyperbole? i'm sure I've broken some. quote:All of the NPCs are there to ignore, kill or knock out as the only possible interaction. There is no "intended perverse pleasure" from helpless bodies. The first bit is her point. All the NPCs are there for that, but only the women are sexualized. And if you don't think it's supposed to be pleasurable to engage in that game mechanic, I don't really know what to say. quote:
Again, if you read her actual article, she is not, in that part you're harping on, referring to Hitman. Please reread the article. quote:I think you're also wrong by insinuating that anything that is possible, is intended as the primary choice. Killing a female character in a game where anyone can die, for example. That's not how it's "intended" to be played, that's a way it can be played. These are synonymous. It's intended that the player can play that way. This is just semantics. It's a gameplay option made available to the character as a valid choice. it's not something you have to exploit or something the devs didn't intend: it's a pathway they mapped out. quote:It's just my self-depricating way of acknowledging that I'm aware that I can come off as abrasive and combative. It's got a few flaws to it. [/quote] Exmond posted:I don't think we are going to agree on this . Saying "Dont hire this guy" in space with the major players in your industry, while you yourself are a major player, is wrong. Okay, first of all, this happens in every industry, all the time: it is the norm. I have done it myself: I have called people after a guy got fired, because I know my company wouldn't tell the people he'd be applying to, to tell them not to hire him because he was a horrible shithead. Do you think I'm a bad person for doing that? Why? I had first hand experience the guy did lovely things, and so I told my friends in the industry. I don't get why this is bad. quote:Such discussions should be person to person, or brought up as a reference point. Not in a group discussion with everyone. Oh, so it's okay if I call them all individually, but not email a group? Why? What if I'm out at dinner with them, can I say it then? Couldn't you just as well argue that doing it one-on-one in a whisper campaign is worse? quote:What if someone thought Pinsof was hireable? Would they speak up in a group conversation where everyone is bashing him? "Everyone" wasn't bashing him. But yeah, if someone thinks he's hireable, they'll say "I'm going to hire him anyway". Why is that unbelievable? The guy I recommended not to be hired wound up getting hired at a place where I'd warned them, and wound up loving them over too. Schadenfreude.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 16:59 |
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God drat how does this stupid movement still exist?
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:02 |
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Obdicut posted:The first bit is her point. All the NPCs are there for that, but only the women are sexualized. And if you don't think it's supposed to be pleasurable to engage in that game mechanic, I don't really know what to say. You can take the clothes off of any male NPC after incapacitating them, leaving them in tighty whities.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:03 |
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INH5 posted:You can take the clothes off of any male NPC after incapacitating them, leaving them in tighty whities. Do you honestly believe this is the same context?
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:04 |
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INH5 posted:You can take the clothes off of any male NPC after incapacitating them, leaving them in tighty whities. Yes, you can. I'm sorry, do you think this is in some way a response to what I said? If you do something extra, you can sexualize male characters. But female characters begin sexualized.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:04 |
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You should be able to take the clothes off the stripper, leaving them in underwear of course, then wear the stripper clothes, and pretend to be a female stripper to infiltrate the building and assassinate your target
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:07 |
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The Snark posted:You're asking me why I have a lot of beliefs I have not said I have. That I do not, in fact, actually have. Can you enjoy problematic media? Does doing so make you a bad person? These questions are much more sincere than those you directed at me because I am not pretending to know what is in your mind in advance.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:08 |
Rebochan posted:gently caress, I'm going to hate touching this poop again but... I posted this a while back, but Randi Harper has been responsible for a lot of harassment and I've never seen anyone on her side call her out for it. http://s2b20blog.mukyou.com/the-hidden-face-of-hypocrisy-randi-harper-part-3/ quote:Q: After being displayed on Randi Harper’s twitter did you receive any difference in negative attention or more specific threats? She even yelled at an anti-GG woman whom she thought was too moderate and ran her out of the movement:
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:09 |
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The Snark posted:Can you enjoy problematic media? Does doing so make you a bad person? Yes No
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:09 |
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Obdicut posted:Yes, you can. I'm sorry, do you think this is in some way a response to what I said? If you do something extra, you can sexualize male characters. But female characters begin sexualized. For one thing, unlike attacking the strippers, stripping incapacitated male NPCs is something that you absolutely have to do many times over the course of the game, because you need to do that to get disguises, and most if not all (I haven't played this particular game myself, only watched LPs) of the game's levels cannot be completed without at least one disguise. For another thing, there are some female NPCs that don't start off sexualized (for example, crowd members in the Chinatown level who wear normal street clothes), and unlike male NPCs you can't strip them after incapacitating them.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:12 |
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ikanreed posted:God drat how does this stupid movement still exist? The sentiments behind it (good and bad) have been stewing for years. As seen in this awful videos that precede gamergate by a year or so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr7u1tWsGBk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5mWCEsi-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rjhyos_ERs
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:12 |
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INH5 posted:For one thing, unlike attacking the strippers, stripping incapacitated male NPCs is something that you absolutely have to do many times over the course of the game, because you need to do that to get disguises, and most if not all (I haven't played this particular game myself, only watched LPs) of the game's levels cannot be completed without at least one disguise. This still does not change the context at all and I am not sure what you are trying to prove
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:13 |
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INH5 posted:For one thing, unlike attacking the strippers, stripping incapacitated male NPCs is something that you absolutely have to do many times over the course of the game, because you need to do that to get disguises, and most if not all (I haven't played this particular game myself, only watched LPs) of the game's levels cannot be completed without at least one disguise. And? I'm not sure why you think that's significant. quote:For another thing, there are some female NPCs that don't start off sexualized (for example, crowd members in the Chinatown level who wear normal street clothes), and unlike male NPCs you can't strip them after incapacitating them. This is mechanical, right? Because their outfits wouldn't actually disguise you? I don't know why you keep fixating on Hitman. I've repeated over and over that we're talking about more than just Hitman, we're talking about this across games, as is the article, but all you talk about is HItman. Can you explain why? The Snark posted:http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080 That's still not what you claimed--but I meant anyone here. Can you find anyone here, who is against GG, as I am, making that claim? The Droid posted:The sentiments behind it (good and bad) have been stewing for years. As seen in this awful videos that precede gamergate by a year or so. Are these the 'ethics in games journalism' sentiments, or the 'feminists are trying to ruin gaming' sentiments?
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:15 |
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Obdicut posted:I don't know why you keep fixating on Hitman. I've repeated over and over that we're talking about more than just Hitman, we're talking about this across games, as is the article, but all you talk about is HItman. Can you explain why? Dog whistle sexism. It's not about the widespread sociological issue it's about that one fact she got wrong about one game.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:17 |
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Obdicut posted:
As I said, both can be seen in the dozen or so "/v/ the musical" videos.The three I linked focused primarily on journalism, but even there you see the occasional jab at tumblr and whatnot. Nevvy Z posted:Dog whistle sexism. It's not about the widespread sociological issue it's about that one fact she got wrong about one game. I don't think that's how the term "dog whistle" works.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:18 |
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The Droid posted:As I said, both can be seen in the dozen or so "/v/ the musical" videos.The three I linked focused primarily on journalism, but even there you see the occasional jab at tumblr and whatnot. Except instead of staying "Bitch slut ruining my games" you say "oh but that critique she did was INACCURATE"
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:21 |
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The Droid posted:As I said, both can be seen in the dozen or so "/v/ the musical" videos.The three I linked focused primarily on journalism, but even there you see the occasional jab at tumblr and whatnot. Yeah, sorry, I'm not watching random chan videos. I think this is part of the incoherence of the GG thing--it's the intersection of people mad about 'social justice' and people who don't understand the games industry and/or journalism, and that's why it's both so hard to get a handle on and hard to quash. It also has no possible resolution. Nevvy Z posted:"by saying, “friend of the family, friend of the family, friend of the family.” By 1968 you can’t say “friend of the family”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “friend of the family, friend of the family.”" Yeah, that's a stretch. I'd say 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:21 |
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Obdicut posted:Yeah, that's a stretch. I'd say 'not seeing the forest for the trees'. When people defend indefensible positions for really pedantic reasons that's all I hear.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:23 |
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What do the pro-Sarkeesian people think about anti-social behavior in more respected media? Does Crime and Punishment encourage violence? Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist?
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:24 |
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Nevvy Z posted:When people defend indefensible positions for really pedantic reasons that's all I hear. Meh, simple pedanticness is an easier culprit. INH5 hasn't said anything that amounts to being personally sexist in any way, shape, or form, and on occasion they've acknowledged the pervasiveness and harmfulness of sexism (kinda). I think that the reason they're only talking about hitman is because it'd screw up their argument not to. Reaganball Z posted:What do the pro-Sarkeesian people think about anti-social behavior in more respected media? Does Crime and Punishment encourage violence? Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist? Nobody is calling for censorship, again. And have you read Crime and Punishment? It's rather discouraging towards violence. I brought up Enid Blyton as an example of racism in respected media earlier, if you want to engage with that.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:25 |
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This is a good video on the subject and fairly neutral (in my opinion at least): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNZFWR0Q8M
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:26 |
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Reaganball Z posted:Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist? Sarkeesian has never advocated for censorship and I challenge you to prove otherwise
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:26 |
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Obdicut posted:Yeah, sorry, I'm not watching random chan videos. I'm not blaming you specifically, but this sort of thing is also something that's been happening a lot that people have a problem with. I could understand if its a 30 minute rant by a nutso like Sargon of Akkad or whatever but you also get things like people commenting on the content of the zoepost without so much a skimming it and relying on hearsay etc.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:27 |
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The Droid posted:I'm not blaming you specifically, but this sort of thing is also something that's been happening a lot that people have a problem with. I could understand if its a 30 minute rant by a nutso like Sargon of Akkad or whatever but you also get things like people commenting on the content of the zoepost without so much a skimming it and relying on hearsay etc. I'd argue that the one Sargon vid of him getting trashed by a feminist is a p good summary of the regular gg'er and that people should watch it. And I'm saying that as a former gg'er.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:30 |
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The Droid posted:I'm not blaming you specifically, but this sort of thing is also something that's been happening a lot that people have a problem with. I could understand if its a 30 minute rant by a nutso like Sargon of Akkad or whatever but you also get things like people commenting on the content of the zoepost without so much a skimming it and relying on hearsay etc. It's a 20 minute video.. At least give a summary (or list some interesting points) if you want people to watch it.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:30 |
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Reaganball Z posted:What do the pro-Sarkeesian people think about anti-social behavior in more respected media? Does Crime and Punishment encourage violence? Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist? I don't think that's a fair analogy because I don't think there are videogames that rise to this level of discourse. I think action movies are a better analogy. It'd be nice to see more black and/or female protagonists in aciton films. That doesn't mean we should 'censor' Die Hard. Hadaka Apron posted:She even yelled at an anti-GG woman whom she thought was too moderate and ran her out of the movement: Is being against gamergate really a movement? It sounds like those two probably still oppose gamergate and just don't talk to each other. Treating gamergate opposition as an organization seems really silly. Gamergate is a lovely organization. I'm not part of any organization and saying gamergate is lovely doesn't make me part of one.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:31 |
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I find it deeply concerning that so many people seem to misconstrue critical analysis and advocacy for censorship
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:31 |
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Reaganball Z posted:What do the pro-Sarkeesian people think about anti-social behavior in more respected media? Does Crime and Punishment encourage violence? Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist? Nobody has denied that other mediums have problems which are criticized, and it is this very fact that is the reason for people criticizing problems in Games. Nobody has argued for censorship.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:32 |
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Nevvy Z posted:I don't think that's a fair analogy because I don't think there are videogames that rise to this level of discourse. I think it might be a bit dangerous to separate media in terms of merit for this particular discussion.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:33 |
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Obdicut posted:I haven't participated in any boycotts, and yet have not been called a sexist, a monster, or a misogynist. Is it possible you're engaging in some rather ludicrous hyperbole? i'm sure I've broken some. Aren't you, by breaking the boycott called by feminists, aiding and abetting sexism by showing that you'd "rather play a game than help fight sexism?" That's really what is happening in that instance, and a lot of loud people would give you poo poo for it. For the record I don't care either. The only things that offend me are the Game of War ads with the scantily clad blonde. But even there, I wouldn't call for a boycott. I'd just mess with you if you played it and poke fun that you did so due to wanting to be "her hero". I really don't agree with you outside of specific stripper instances. A man or a woman, fully clothed and dead is just a dead body to move. There's no perversion unless I'm dry humping the body, and I doubt that the company will code that in...beware of modders though, they're some sick fuckers. Open world sandbox games are intended to be played any realistic way you want. I don't want invulnerable NPC's or "Game Over" if I miss the man I'm shooting at and hit a woman. They're like that so you have the freedom to do anything you want. As controversial as it is, I want kids to be in Fallout again. Why? So I have to worry about not spraying a machine gun at my target if it's in a town, or not use explosives on a particular door, or lob grenades around for shits and giggles. I like immersive sandbox games. I want consequences to be organic, not rediculous and forced, like a Game Over. If I accidentally shoot a child in a game, I want the town to lose it's poo poo and come after me. Obdicut posted:Okay, first of all, this happens in every industry, all the time: it is the norm. I have done it myself: I have called people after a guy got fired, because I know my company wouldn't tell the people he'd be applying to, to tell them not to hire him because he was a horrible shithead. Do you think I'm a bad person for doing that? Why? I had first hand experience the guy did lovely things, and so I told my friends in the industry. I don't get why this is bad. Sweet Christ yes it's a bad thing. Whistleblowers, labor organizers and "Troublemakers" (Read: People who know their rights and fight wage theft and other abuse) are black listed all the time like this. So what if that guy was lovely, even he's got to eat. You're commiting honest to god economic violence there, by trying to ensure that he can't find work in his field. Really man, I'm pretty surprised that you would engage in that.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:33 |
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Talmonis posted:Sweet Christ yes it's a bad thing. Whistleblowers, labor organizers and "Troublemakers" (Read: People who know their rights and fight wage theft and other abuse) are black listed all the time like this. So what if that guy was lovely, even he's got to eat. You're commiting honest to god economic violence there, by trying to ensure that he can't find work in his field. Really man, I'm pretty surprised that you would engage in that. As I have said before, there are countless examples of people you would be comfortable being blacklisted like this. Your issue is not with the action, it is with the justification for the action. If someone were fired for sexual harassment and racially abusive language would you honestly be upset if employees from one company told another company not to hire him?
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:35 |
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Nevvy Z posted:When people defend indefensible positions for really pedantic reasons that's all I hear. I haven't really been paying attention to this thread for the obvious reason that I don't care that much but what is this guy's position and why is it indefensible?
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:35 |
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The Droid posted:I'm not blaming you specifically, but this sort of thing is also something that's been happening a lot that people have a problem with. I could understand if its a 30 minute rant by a nutso like Sargon of Akkad or whatever but you also get things like people commenting on the content of the zoepost without so much a skimming it and relying on hearsay etc. Dude, there's no reason to watch the videos when you can save me the time with a simple answer to a simple question. I rely on 'hearsay' a lot, otherwise known as 'what people I trust say', and it's not a bad thing to do. If a good friend of mine tells me that a game sucks, and why, for example, I tend to work off of that information. I've now barely skimmed the Zoepost which is creepy as gently caress and the hearsay interpretation I was given of it was basically fine but underplayed how crazy the dude sounds. The summary of it was accurate, and the time I spent reading it wasn't time well spent.
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:36 |
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# ? May 31, 2024 05:01 |
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Slanderer posted:It's a 20 minute video.. At least give a summary (or list some interesting points) if you want people to watch it. What is a 20 minute video
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# ? Jul 2, 2015 17:36 |