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poptart_fairy posted:This is kind of the thing really. Even with a surface level grasp and explanation of what she's talking about, stuff like Other M and the like gets glossed over in favour of her rambling about riding boots looking like high heels. Yeah, 'Other M' is insanely misogynistic. If you want to point out misogyny in videogames, that's a textbook example. Terrible Opinions posted:No they dropped it after 1 thankfully, because it was as you said shameful and sad. There is still a bit of uncomfortable sex stuff in the Witcher 3, but it's mostly like what you get in aSoIaF. Sometimes in service in pointing out that medieval society sucked and needed to change and sometimes because the author wanted to feed their fetish. Pretty much. It isn't anything different then you'd find on HBO, in terms of The Witcher 2 & 3. Another thing to remember about The Witcher 1 is that it is very much a product of its time. It came out in October 2007, while Mass Effect came out in November of the same year. Mass Effect was the first game to have a sexual element to it. I remember the hosts on Fox News calling it a sex simulator, so it was a big deal at the time. So, nobody really knew how to do sex in video games. And unfortunately, they went with the idiotic sex cards that were more like a porn game than a mainstream release. I don't attribute it to malice, just having absolutely no idea what they were doing. Which is why when ME came out and other games started having content like that, they dropped it like they should have in the first place. EDIT: And for anyone who doesn't know, Mcintosh has said that escapisim is right wing. So, uh, yeah.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:22
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SedanChair posted:There's no mistake or inadvertence to it, women and their sexual conquest are for collecting. True, it was really awful. I just feel like they had no idea of the implications of what they were doing and went with the cards because they didn't have the budget or time to do them properly. But I can't get inside their heads about it, so maybe you are right.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:28
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Hadaka Apron posted:Doing a web series on misogyny in video games and ignoring Other M is like doing a series on racism in film and ignoring Birth of a Nation, if Birth of a Nation had come out only a decade ago and ruined one of cinema's most iconic characters. Indeed. It is a perfect jumping off point because it can introduce people to basic concepts they haven't been exposed to, like agency and how it affects characters and perceptions of those characters. You could use Other M as your primer and jump off from there.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:32
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Helsing posted:Well, after perusing this thread and googling a few of the names and terms used I've concluded that this is the stupidest thing ever. Jesus loving Christ twitter is terrible.  Twitter is the absolute worst way to have a discussion and people keep doing it. 140 characters isn't enough to discuss anything more complicated than cake vs. pie (its pie btw), but people keep doing it. And all you can do is basically curse at the other person, or block them. It is why I don't have a twitter account at all.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:35
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poptart_fairy posted:Hahaha, that's the sort of attitude most people here have had and should have towards it. When you see someone sincerely trying to argue one side it gets ridiculous. So many goons have fully jumped onto the twitter war thing and, eh. To be honest, I don't give two shits about ethics in game journalism. Its like trying to take the NRA out of Guns and Ammo. It is not going to happen. Besides, if it doesn't stay terrible, how will I laugh at 'games journalists'? Also, it was recently revealed that less than 3% of people use game reviews to make a purchase. It is all YouTube and word of mouth nowadays. Gaming sites are the walking dead at this point. There's no real point to reforming 'gaming journalism' when it is at the end of its run. I honestly take recommendations for buying stuff in the Games `forum over any reviewer. I can't ever recall buying something based off a game review except to see if it would melt my computer or not. unlimited shrimp posted:I started following it later, but Hellthread never seemed especially pro- or anti-GG. It seemed more like everyone was just enjoying watching the slow motion train wreck. Yup, pretty much this.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:44
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paranoid randroid posted:identity politics and, hell, cultural marxism even Too bad you weren't around when GG put on their  regarding DIGRA and the common core. That was hilarious.Toplowtech posted:The 140 characters limit is pretty good at producing sentences that can be easily be quoted out of context for hilarious effect. Also it's cake. Yup, and it happens all the time which is why it perplexes me that people still do it. Cake lover!  Powercrazy posted:Many Youtubers will disclose too. Something like "so and so company sent me this game so I'm going to review it for you." That's it. TB will even overtly refuse to review some games because of his politics, which is also a form of journalistic ethics. It's a minor thing but important to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Yeah, and I mean even I take that with a grain of salt. Mostly it is word of mouth and based on my own tastes. And a lot of times you can wait for the game to come out to see someone playing it if it is for you or not. If you never pre-order anything, you can wait and see. But gamers have no willpower, so pre-ordering is still a thing.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:54
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I said come in! posted:Brianna Wu is probably the best out of all of this. Between alienating her own employees, killing her dog, attacking other indie game devs, being an arrogant prick, and faking online harassment and lying about having to flee her home, there is a lot of great stuff to read on her Twitter on a daily basis. She is legit crazy and I think everyone knows it by now at this point. Once GG is over, I pretty much think she'll fade away since that is her only claim to fame. Oh, and making an iOS game that took half a million dollars and nearly half a decade to make while it looked like it came out in 1998. Dapper_Swindler posted:Yeah, pretty much, I think alot of people just want to see gawker and polygon fall which they seem to be doing on their own. As i said in the other thread, Both sides suck. GG is basically /pol/ jr at this point and it kinds of just sits in its own corner playing with itself and listening to whatever libertarian website talks about it. the antis/sjws/anti gamer/whatever you call them are now just running around screaming at what ever game is popular at the moment (witcher 3/ arkham knight/ soon mgs5) and calling it sexist or racist or gross and violent. just look at josh and anita reactions to doom or josh tirade on the esrb. look at the long angry articles over their not being minorities in a polish farytale. I agree with the basic line of their ideals. I want more diverse characters and stories and games. but they want everything to be a vehicle for their train of thought and ideals. As was stated many times in Hellthread, GG is Luigi in Mario Party standing still, doing absolutely nothing while the opponents win the game for him. And also, I have no loving idea how anyone trusts Polygon in the least after that Rock Band debacle where the guy basically admitted to not doing his job and basically telling his editor to go gently caress himself (polygon editors lol). Their focus on violence is really confusing to me, honestly. That's not a road anyone wants to go down again and they seem really determined to talk about it, which is a huge mistake. But yeah, I want more diverse and interesting characters as well.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:07
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Just a friendly reminder to not-hellthread, don't take this as an extremely serious issue. This topic is like the Lovecraft tome of the internet. The longer you stare into it and rant at people, you risk going down the path of cardboard box a and spacedad. Down that path lies madness.
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Jun 26, 2015 18:04
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poptart_fairy posted:His viewpoints have popped up under her name, identical in everything down to the grammar - stuff that then quickly disappears from his own twitter, etc. It seems way too nose to just be a case of two people sharing similar opinions. It also isn't a controversial idea that someone else runs her twitter. This has been done very frequently for celebrities and other organizations.
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Jun 26, 2015 18:36
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I said come in! posted:Anita needs to make that clear then. Both her and McIntosh pretend the FemFreq Twitter account is all Anita's. Well, she lets him post on the account, so we have to assume that she believes the same things. Would have been a hilarious shitstorm if McIntosh posted his 'escapism is right wing' insanity. Shame.
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Jun 26, 2015 18:46
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Meme Emulator posted:The problem here is that GG doesnt have any real people to mock outside of Milo Yianopolous and I guess that one Moldbuggian guy since its an anonymous movement. Pretty much. Sargon was funny when he was doing his common core and digra tinfoil rants, but he stopped. King of Pol was a huge idiot and funny, but got booted our when he lied about a Facebook post by Gawker.
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Jun 26, 2015 19:12
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unlimited shrimp posted:Since SJW is a dirty word now, can we come up with another term for online outrage addicts / call-out culturists. I like neo-puritans because it sounds fun.
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Jun 26, 2015 19:20
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Gianthogweed posted:This thread is moving too fast. Here's a 6 hour video on the upcoming and oh so important SPJ gamergate panel debate that you guys should all watch so that this thread slows down. I do find it rather ironic that this thread is moving faster than the gbs one by a large margin. 3 to 4 hours in and we are up to 20 or so pages.
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Jun 26, 2015 19:45
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Nevvy Z posted:Natetimm do you really not understand how the things someone does in the privacy of their bedroom is different from broadly diseminated media in how it has an influence on culture and public thinking? Well, there was a multi-year German longitudinal study based on cultivation theory. They found that video games do not influence or cause sexist attitudes among those that play them: http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2015/04/10/new-study-finds-no-link-between-gaming-and-sexist-attitudes/
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Jun 26, 2015 20:00
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Manspreading in NYC as a crime has nothing to do with feminism, it is part of the broken window strategy of policing.
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Jun 26, 2015 20:03
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UberJew posted:New world of darkness splat is a hilariously offensive clusterfuck, I don't have time to stay caught up on the d&d threads Wait, what happened?
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Jun 26, 2015 20:26
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Prav posted:Considering WW I want to hear what they've done this time because it's gotta be a doozy for people to mention it. Yeah, same. Sounds like a big clusterfuck
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Jun 26, 2015 20:29
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Popular Thug Drink posted:no, all studies point to it being false I posted a study where a multi year German study found no link between sexist attitudes and gaming. Here it is again: http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2015/04/10/new-study-finds-no-link-between-gaming-and-sexist-attitudes/
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Jun 26, 2015 20:31
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SedanChair posted:Maybe you should post the study and not a paid "Forbes editorial" Alright, just thought it would be easier to post a summar. But here is the article: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cyber.2014.0492 Popular Thug Drink posted:this isn't the question iw as talking about with that other guy Ah, sorry. This thread is moving at the speed of light and I am doing ten things at once
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Jun 26, 2015 20:38
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UberJew posted:the beasts from the new splat hang out with the fair folk from new changeling and consider them buddies and their 'villains' include a little girl a beast put into a coma who dared to fight back in dreamland, "but if you think that makes them look like the baddies you're actually a racist they're 100% good guys" -devs Wow, that's pretty loltastic. XMNN posted:It's breathed new life into something that was naturally dying down on its own. Yeah, it really is funny. If they had just left it in gbs it would have slowed down, but now this is moving at the speed of light.
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Jun 26, 2015 20:59
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Sinnlos posted:My apologies. I'll have to watch it later. Yeah, he penned anti-discrimination laws I believe.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:45
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blackguy32 posted:By the way, I have been meaning to check out that new GTFO movie, has anyone seen it yet? We're talking about a guy who called escapism 'right wing'. He is not mentally all there.
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Jun 26, 2015 22:30
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XMNN posted:Oh that dude. I think he split up with the guy who did all his youtube videos in a dressing gown, but they might be back together now for the money. Please god no, I had hoped that they would have run off together. They are going to produce the worst poo poo ever. And Budget Kane has a skull fetish.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:08
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SedanChair posted:I can't imagine what any of this means. They're hardcore libtards who are making an anti-anita video. It is going to be awful and lovely and people actually gave them money. He's called Budget Kane because of his resemblance to Kane in C&C. Here is the skull video if you are curious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdIHK8O5yo
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Jun 26, 2015 23:25
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paranoid randroid posted:the gently caress is freeze peach and why should i care I don't know if you are being facetious or not, but it is a mispronunciation spelled out of free speech in order to mock it.
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Jun 26, 2015 23:33
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Prav posted:I mean I wouldn't have given a gently caress if it wasn't for most videogame-related sites I visit more or less at once starting to ban people for talking about it. But they did. Apparently it wasn't a permitted topic. hosed up. Another part of the problem was that animosity between gaming journalists and their audience had been building for years. If it wasn't this, it would have been something else for sure.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:03
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Popular Thug Drink posted:is it possible to separate gamergate as a movement from its /pol/ roots? Part of the problem is that 'gamergate' itself is so diverse with issues that people care about, its hard to define. Some are hardcore MRA libtards (see Budget Kane and Fat Jon Romero), some are conservatives willing to exploit the anger against dirty liberals for cash and political capital (Milo Yanniopolis and that stupid Fox News Piece of poo poo who got beat up by a union man), others just care about the game journalism, others care about censorship and others care about the sjws/secular moralists/neo puritans/etc. And then some interests overlap. Others don't care at all and want just pieces from each. Some are liberals, some are conservative and some are I don't know what. I am sure some /pol/ people jumped in there somewhere, either to stir poo poo or because it gave them cause to attack people they didn't like. So its a big mish-mash of poo poo, you could probably define it as whatever you want, since the bar of entry is posting the hashtag on twitter. Which is not a very high bar at all. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 05:01
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so like the confederate flag, why wave around a symbol inexorably tainted with hatred if you're doing so for some benign purpose such as honoring your totally not racist grandpappy? why would someone who is sincerely concerned with ethics in journalism make common cause with literal white supremacists? doesn't that look confusing and guilty-by-association to outsiders, which is the other 99.9% of society? I can't speak for everyone, but I think most of it just didn't want it taken out of historical war games or simulations. And others didn't want to defend their heritage or whatever (there might have been, I have no idea) but didn't want it being censored because of free speech issues. For me, it is a bit more complicated because I loathe the loving thing, but at the same time I support freedom of speech. Part of it is the theory of the chain of free speech, which states that free speech is only as strong as its weakest link, which is really ugly, hateful poo poo. That's why you get the ACLU defending the KKK and Neo-Nazis. It isn't accepting of the flag itself or the ideas behind it, its accepting that people have a right to say what they want without it being censored, even if it is the most repugnant poo poo imaginable. I do have a hard time stomaching that, as chattle slavery was one of the loving most awful things in our history and that flag should never fly anywhere. But it also serves as a reminder in historical simulations and media of our awful past and what it represents, so we remember those that suffered under it and never, ever forget. Sticking them in museums and just removing them entirely allows us to do that. Because it is something we wish we could do, and we shouldn't be able. That flag should never, ever be glorified. achillesforever6 posted:And some are mad about jokes that Tim Schafer makes at an award show. How could anyone hate Tim Schafer, he seems like such a cool dude It is the offensive taken to the other side. GG'ers can be just as sensitive to bad jokes about them than the other side. Also Tim Schafer did lose a lot of fans with Space Base and closing it up when it was still in Alpha, leaving people in the cold. But that really doesn't have much to do with GG.
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Jun 27, 2015 05:19
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LostRook posted:It's not making fun of GG that offended people, it's making fun of #notyourshield. If you can't get why people would be upset with a white man making fun of and erasing minorities, I don't know what to say. Ah poo poo, I totally forgot that part about it.
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Jun 27, 2015 05:22
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i agree with you here, but what does this have to do with SJWs or gamergate Not much really, but some people in GG are extremely anti-censorship, so they took it up as their cause. Mainly because of Apple removing the games. It really is just a huge mish-mash of stuff which makes it hard to pin down exactly what they are or what they care about. It is good to have moderation, sure. I mean, if you don't, you get poo poo like /pol/ which started out as a parody board and just became utterly horrifying. Some people really just don't want that, unfortunately. They want a place where they can scream and throw poo poo at each other and generally just be as despicable as possible. Even twitter is like this, because 140 characters doesn't give you a lot of leeway to be civil. It boils ideas down to their least complicated and radicalizes everything. And that leads to poo poo slinging as well. Some people just want to roll in filth. The only good thing is that you can safely ignore places like these, and unless they are doing patently illegal things (like swatting, trading child porn, doxxing, etc.) they really won't affect your life. If we banned all the chans, they would only go to Tor anyway. At least this way people can see the horrible poo poo they do and maybe if they are doing something illegal, stop them before they do anything. But I do agree, these places do not encourage a large amount of ideas or civilized discussion.
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Jun 27, 2015 05:43
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Dreylad posted:seems to me that corporate censorship is much more of an immediate and pressing concern given that gaming journalism just reproduces press releases from gaming companies as news. It is, gaming journalism is dumb and hilarious at the same time and I never want it to change. Popular Thug Drink posted:in my experience people who are very deeply anti-censorship tend to have very fringe and unhealthy opinions It really is a fine line because there is some horrible, horrible poo poo out there. Obviously, there are limits to free speech and what should and shouldn't be censored. Since we are on the topic of video games, I vaguely remember in the mid-early 90s when I was a kid there was a news report on a white supremacist video game which was a concentration camp simulator. Even with my strong feelings on free speech, even I can't condone poo poo like that. It really was a reaction to everyone pulling merchandise and toys with the flag and it was a dumb decision. But yeah, either historical sims/games or alt-history stuff like Wolfenstein: The New Order (which was surprisingly good). Never glorified. I really should check it out. I'll never be able to play as the confederates though, just like I can't play as the Nazis in Hearts of Iron. Crushing the confederacy in Vicky 2 never gets old though (I do love me some paradox titles). Since it is on Steam, I'll add it to my wishlist. I really could go for something like that, and it seems really good, especially for an iOS port.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:00
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Popular Thug Drink posted:but, it's just a video game? This is true. I know it is kind of a weird thing and I should get over it. But in general in strategy I do favor more defensive play styles, so that is probably a large part of the reason. When I pick it up I'll do both to get out of my comfort zone.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:08
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Let us English posted:This thread moves fast. That is actually a really good video, and I typically don't like things from him. And games do have a diversity problem and I do want more diverse games. Cardboard Box A posted:You have summoned me, I am here. I thought we had lost you to twitter forever. Welcome back to Not-Hellthread
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Jun 27, 2015 06:36
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s. A bingo card isn't an argument.
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Dapper_Swindler posted:and thats the poo poo that makes me not like GG. stupid shits doing poo poo like that. It was good segment, yeah i think wu is probaly full of poo poo, but its mostly about how revenge porn is hosed up and bad which most people agree with. You have to be a huge rear end in a top hat to poo poo on Jon Oliver, who is pretty much doing the best to tackle issues no one else wants to talk about and make them funny and interesting.
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Jun 27, 2015 06:50
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Sinnlos posted:Forgive me if I'm getting things wrong, but wasn't the initial, basic, idea behind gamergate that Zoe Quinn slept with a dude and deserved harassment for it? I'd say that that is wrong right out the gate. It wasn't so much Zoe Quinn as gamers really loving hating games journalists and were really just looking for any excuse to poo poo on them. There was a lot of bad blood between them before Zoe Quinn ever came up. If it wasn't about Depression Quest, it would have easily been something else that kicked this off. Popular Thug Drink posted:this was all debunked though, wasn't it? like it turned out that people were mostly just mad about a woman who enjoyed sex and had sex with more than one man? Yeah, it was just one line and the game was free anyway. It didn't matter though, because people were looking for any excuse to go after the gaming press. There was and still is a lot of animosity between journalists and their audience, probably even moreso now than before. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 27, 2015 07:15
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Sinnlos posted:So doesn't this kind of mean the basic premise of gamergate is harassment of a female game developer for the crime of being a female game developer? I can't really find any reason that she would be harassed that isn't rooted in pretty blatant misogyny. I mean, gamergate prioritized a game developer over an actual games journalist. Obviously, nothing excuses harassment, no matter what someone did. And there were plenty of assholes and trolls and pieces of poo poo who gleefully engaged in it. If I remember correctly, the gears shifted rather quickly away from Quinn and to game journalists and to indie cliques. Especially Nathan Grayson/Kotaku. And once the 'gamers are dead' articles came out, that's when the focus shifted completely away from her. Which is what I feel the whole thing was about in the first place, an excuse to put that animosity out in the open. If the whole ZQ thing was never posted on the internet, I believe this still would have happened. But the catalyst would have been different. Also, it has been nearly a year on and the whole thing has morphed into something completely different now, Zoe Quinn seems like the distant past. So I could be mis-remembering some stuff. Unfunny Poster posted:Are we going to go off on a "what is a game" tangent? Please God, no. Lets just say DQ is a crappy game and leave it at that.
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Jun 27, 2015 07:28
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Al Cowens posted:All video games are stupid, of course. This article right here is why I never, ever want games journalism to change.
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Jun 27, 2015 07:33
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Unfunny Poster posted:The overall issue is likely with the larger publishers (Ubisoft, EA, Activision, etc.) not putting much weight behind those sort of things (namely female leads) because they, as a business, worked out whats the best formula to milk money from consumers. They're not as willing to take a risk on a big budget AAA game with a female lead for example as the smaller publishers are. Which is fine, then the smaller studios will do the work and capitalize on that demographics desires. Pretty much this. It is why we don't have games based on other culture's mythology. Games are a huge risk and developers don't want to take that chance so they go with what is safe. I mean, I'd kill for a game set in a mythical Africa/India/Middle East with tons of cultural references I haven't been exposed to like 'The Witcher 3', which is completely slavic in its influences. Or a game where I get to play a Moor fighting against the Reconquista. poo poo like that. But those aren't safe titles. See how publishers basically stated old-school cRPGs were dead, horror was dead, etc. and then they came back with a vengeance to sell really well. Publishers are very frequently wrong and look at the bottom line. After all, gaming is a business.
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Jun 27, 2015 09:30
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NightVis posted:The art games deal is a "thing" largely because the gaming press can be overly solicitous towards it in a way that outsizes its actual interest among the consumers, which is a pretty big disconnect from the consumers of the products they're covering. I think a lot of the gaming journos covered in this shitstorm are generally just writing about games to get a byline, and would rather be doing some political blogging somewhere. When you got a disconnect (I'd even go as far as to say contempt) that hard between the audience and writers there's going to be some natural tension going both ways. If Ebert were covering some fresh film grad's 10 minute short, people would think it'd be out of place. Then again, Ebert actually wanted to be writing about movies. The thing about art games is that in a sense, they don't have to be fun. For example, I wouldn't consider 'Papers Please' fun, but it is an engaging game with unique gameplay elements and a very interesting message/story. Sunset committed the cardinal sin: It was boring. You don't have to be fun, but you absolutely cannot be boring. It did tell and not show, which is why it only sold 4k copies. And its message was pretty easily understood. It was just awful. Take for example another art game: 'Her Story'. The only gameplay is a series of FMV clips you watch. You have to piece together the mystery yourself, sometimes using a pen and paper. It might not be fun, but it is engaging and probably the best FMV game ever invented. You have to find out the story yourself and piece it together. It is engaging and to some people fun.
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Jun 27, 2015 10:38
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NightVis posted:That's a lot of what it came down to in my opinion. It wasn't so much that there was coverage of the art games or games that looked at social issues, it was more that they got ahead of themselves and didn't necessarily cover games, they covered gestures at games. Depression Quest and Tales of Tales games fit into that "hits all the right notes for this subset of the press, didn't bring anything to the table" box that people are getting irrationally angry at. It'd be fair to still call those games art, but they were bad art, and getting the level of promotion that a lot of small developers would give their right arm for does make the disconnect I've been talking about deeper. People naturally don't like shills. Someone telling you that (AAA release) is the greatest thing on the planet is grating enough. Seeing the gaming equivalent of a crust punk's garage band getting international press just makes the (already laughable) system look even more illegitimate. That's the thing. Art has to be innovative, not wholly derivative. DQ was just another really bad twine game. Sunset was a worse walking simulator than 'Dear Esther' or 'Gone Home'. Exactly. The 'Sunset' devs were pretty arrogant in this respect. They said they were making art, but it was really bad, overly pretentious art. Also, they pulled the 'they just didn't get it man' card when it sold like garbage (The message is that capitalism is bad). They also hired a PR firm with Leigh Alexander, who basically loathes games and doesn't understand them since she really doesn't want to be a games writer. So it misfired spectacularly. And it was very obviously clear they were trying to profit off of the success of 'Gone Home' without doing anything different. I feel like there has been a large push back against the highly cliquish indie scene as of late. It goes along with the interests of the journalists and even the indie scene themselves being completely out of balance with what people want to play. And for the reason you said, they've been shilling for them hard. circ dick soleil posted:Doesn't Gamergate hate that game based on the name of it alone? I honestly have no idea. There are probably some going 'why isn't it his story ' But those people are morons. If anyone is doing that (someone probably is).
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Jun 27, 2015 11:15
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