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Fojar38 posted:Someone was put high on a threat list for spurious reasons, greatly inconveniencing them and causing them to sue the US government. This is exactly the same as being locked up indefinitely without trial by an authoritarian regime. Gitmo
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Jul 18, 2015 05:40
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kapparomeo posted:When you control a sprawling continental empire that still represses colonial vassals (sorry, "autonomous zones") to this day you can also have a very broad interpretation of "domestic". Native reservations, Puerto Rico.
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Jul 18, 2015 13:53
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Skeesix posted:Yes, US treatment of native reservations and Puerto Rico is exactly analogous to Chinese treatment of Inner Mongolia and Tibet. You're right, what was the exchange rate for Native scalp : USD again?
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Jul 18, 2015 16:52
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Bifner McDoogle posted:The whole argument destroying the OP is this sentence: I love how your post is the unique blend of ultraleftism that always props up Bad Things. Can't be a Real Socialist(TM) if you don't parrot anticommunst memes, defend the american empire from criticism, and pin your hopes on an elderly white liberal who's recycling the Obama 08' hope and change strategy only moreso. Meanwhile, people in this thread are debating if it really counts as lynching if a cop does it. Amazing.
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Jul 18, 2015 18:40
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^Maybe once you've settled on if someone should invoke the spectre of lynching when discussing cops murdering black people or not, perhaps then you can move on to deciding if you're going to do an ineffectual non violent protest or instead sit at home and ignore it.Fojar38 posted:Communism as you envision it is a dead and failed ideology. It is gone and never coming back. Communism as I envision it is alive and well in the ruling parties of China, Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos, as well as non-ruling parties across the whole world, including ones currently involved in revolutionary wars. Communism as I envision it is incredibly varied, and in the main looks nothing like whatever crude cartoon of drunk people mining salt in a snowstorm you'd draw up. Fojar38 posted:You will live the rest of your life in a world without Stalinism. That doesn't present a problem because Stalinism isn't actually a thing nor has it ever been. If you picked a thousand people you consider "stalinist" in a room and checked their political opinions half of them would disagree with the room's consensus on each topic. It would probably be a lot more interesting than the tired poo poo liberals raised on western anticommunism say though. Bring back LF. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 19:13
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MaxxBot posted:I'm sure it's all of the western propaganda we've been fed over the years that is to blame for us not viewing these countries as the glorious paradises that they are, right? Developing countries poorer than developed countries shocker. In other news fire hot, water wet.
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Jul 18, 2015 19:31
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Bifner McDoogle posted:I already did settle on if it makes sense to invoke the spectre of lynching (it isn't it does a disservice to understanding lynching and/or police shootings, it attaches an emotional reaction to something so inherently outrageous that the comparison is unnecessary and serves to undermine the arguement). I also do not do ineffectual non-violent protests or sit at home to ignore it, I instead participate in effectual non-violent protests that seek to solidify labor and minority rights. I'd say your posting suggest you eat lead paint chips, but the unjust and illegal proliferation on lead paint in poorer neighborhoods makes this comparison offensive so I'll stick to calling you delusional. Thinking that non violence protest is an effective method of fixing the problem while calling others delusional is really special. Between that and the apparently Sincere belief that Bernie Sander's flavour of bland pre-blair social democrat ideas are "socialist" you're a real special one. Socialism without socialism. Amazing. Welcome to ignore list pissbaby hell, it'll keep you warm after you get your miracle and Bernie becomes Hillary's VP in time for more welfare cuts, weapons shipments to israel, and war in the middle east.
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Jul 18, 2015 19:37
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Fojar38 posted:Also loving lol that you cited goddamn China, one of the most capitalist countries on the planet right now, as your ideal communist utopia. Nothing's more capitalist than literally not being able to own land, state owned enterprises being over half the economy, major businesses being pushed around by the CPC, and corrupt bosses getting snatched off the street and killed by roving death vans. Pictured: Free market capitalist captain of industry in china:  Also nah, the "ideal communist utopia" is a thing that is worked towards (over centuries), not a thing that exists currently. You cannot be a country with a definable state when you have reached the communist historical era. This is 101 poo poo. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 19:55
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Rent-A-Cop posted:HorseLord doesn't know what Stae Capitalism is and that makes me sad because it means he isn't putting as much effort into his LF Stalinist gimmick as it deserves. Instead of making poo poo up about me you could actually engage with what I say, instead. Is "Bolshevism is the left force of capital" not low hanging enough for you or something?
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Jul 18, 2015 20:13
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Bifner McDoogle posted:He is engaging with what you said, that you don't understand state capitalism, You don't know what you just quoted means. Particularly that little bit in these funny little " " marks, and what it signifies. I do understand State Capitalism, and I haven't said anything that's incompatible with me understanding it. Any idea to the contrary is wishful thinking. That the CPC have set the economy up with a private sector does not make them any less communists. They're hella into Marx and Lenin. At any rate people (usually trots) will abuse the term State Capitalism to mean literally anything from Yugoslavia to the united states (they are a state which endorse capitalism), to China (they are a state with a capitalist sector of the economy), to the USSR (the state as a capitalist). The term shifts meaning depending on it's target, but never actually engages with their beliefs and goals. One thing is certain, regarding China: You try and force your preconceptions on their way of doing things and you're going to have a bad time. Western genius economists have been saying they're about to have a recession any day now for like 30 years. Perhaps they're doing it wrong? HorseLord fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 20:44
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DeusExMachinima posted:
I love this idea of the solidly defined, fixed human nature, which transcends all history and every known society, despite all evidence to the contrary. The idea that all human beings all secretly have the same personality, and if they try to do something good, then they'll transform involuntarily like a werewolf on a full moon. "Free will doesn't exist, so it's okay I'm a shitpile and also so are you secretly". 3edgy5me bro
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Jul 19, 2015 01:02
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Yes you see by virtue of the black president but also racism transitive principal America is the Great Satan. The CPC was fraternal with the Black Panthers.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:48
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Fojar38 posted:The US is held to a higher standard, which is why people make more forum threads making GBS threads on the US than they do on China despite the latter being far worse. In america, Individual citizens grasping no power to change what they criticize are left alone, but this does not mean America as a state has effective self criticism or self reflection. Just that it's useless and might as well not exist. Incidents where people critical of the system began to gain power are always ended with three letter agency subversion and assassination. And no, China isn't "worse". China doesn't play the middle east and latin america like a game of risk.
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Jul 19, 2015 02:19
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SorcerousHam posted:Instead China plays south-east and central asia like a game of risk, and latin america and africa like ye olde time colonialism except with less grand narrative of "uplifting" and more exploitative extraction. Hello alternate universe.
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Jul 19, 2015 02:28
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Fojar38 posted:Tell me about when someone who was critical of the system began to gain power in the US and was assassinated by the CIA. FBI, but, Martin Luther King jr. They'd been trying for years before they actually did it to get him dead by other means, including at one point writing a letter purportedly from another civil rights activist suggesting he should kill himself. SorcerousHam posted:Plus any number of news articles regarding China's exploitation of Africa (employ Chinese only How do you know that this is true? Certainly if the Chinese are so awful, they'd hire the cheaper local african labour?
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Jul 19, 2015 02:45
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Fojar38 posted:Okay so sending threatening letters = assassination? Unless you believe that James Earl Ray was a government agent/Loyd Jowers' testimony is reliable. If it's good enough for your yankee court it's good enough for you. And yeah, there's plenty more on the USA assassination pile, you're quite fond of some very interesting methods of "diplomatic relations".
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Jul 19, 2015 03:23
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asdf32 posted:The thing you're not getting is that in China, due to a legal technicality, people don't own land. See how that makes everything better? Forums poster asdf32 has arrived! I remember you from the marxism thread, where you'd argue against things you had no knowledge of in a circular fashion for tens upon tens of pages.
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Jul 19, 2015 07:17
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kapparomeo posted:European imperialists did the same thing too. Weird how we don't get any praise for it though. "some people are rich and some people are poor and because of this their interests generally clash" does not mean what every anticommunist moron under the sun means by "human nature", which is that nobody can ever do nice things even if they try hard because magic. Gotchas are stupid, and so are people who try them.
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Jul 19, 2015 16:53
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MrNemo posted:Yes, there is no such thing as human nature. Human beings are utterly defined and shaped by the societies we find ourselves in, which is why the writings of ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Assyrians or other ancient peoples in radically different social settings are impossible for us to understand or even come close to comprehending and we must continue to examine Homer as the writings of some alien species. Give it up Capitailures! What even is your point here other than "everyone is exactly alike because we can translate languages"? Because that's dumb. Actually Existing Human Nature exists only in terms of things like the average number of legs or eyes, need to eat and poo poo, capability for thought, etc. It does not extend to the level where everyone's personality is near identical - and bad - which is the requirement for this stupid anticommunist argument to work. The argument is still "you can't be nice because human nature!" where "human nature" is entirely interchangeable with Magic, demonic possession, or that thing Scientologists think they have. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 18:00
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh I was just joking. My favorite part is where China doing the same thing that Europe did 100 years ago in Africa gets praised. Making a business deal with the local government, complying with all labour laws, and paying their workers above average for the region, is not the same as just showing up on a boat and threatening to shoot whoever the gently caress unless they bow down.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:51
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MrNemo posted:Which is fine until you remember this whole argument started with someone who is aware of all that and was fully in favour of it all as a positive development towards True Communism as exemplified by such glorious Socialist states as China, Vietnam (both pretty good examples of entrenched oligarchies practising crony capitalism) North Korea (just lol) Who's defending North Korea as an example of Communism? They follow the Juche ideology. MrNemo posted:and Cuba (I'd argue more a socialist dictatorship and largely has avoided market capitalism because of its deliberate exclusion). All countries which are ran by communist parties and have removed the capitalist system yet have not reached full rawdogging moneyless stateless communism are "socialist dictatorships", so trying to describe Cuba as "more a socialist dictatorship" as supposed to a communist-ran country is jibberish nonsense. MrNemo posted:The human nature argument came about because he was also arguing that there's no such thing, while also accepting that we share a common biology. So either he believes that brain plasticity means every human being is a totally blank slate in terms of development (and it's pure chance we've ended up with things like common emotions over common experiences) or his concept of a human nature is the incredibly strawman idea of it requiring all human beings be 100% identical. Nope. But relying on human nature as an anticommunist argument requires "human nature" to dictate negative innate unconscious behaviors to the degree that free will doesn't exist, and that actually verifiable human actions cannot have ever happened. "I was trying to do a selfless act but the human nature/thetans/demon in my head made me stab this hobo instead". The existence of nice people simply destroys it. Straight up. If we can't do something nice like socialism because "human nature" makes being nice impossible, why did I give a homeless person a sausage roll yesterday? Checkmate athiests. MrNemo posted:Which is the lengths you have to go to when you're arguing with someone who sees the deaths of 100s of millions as a positive step in human development. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 03:06
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Crowsbeak posted:They were really about equal in their horribleness. British: Hey africans would you like to be dragged onto a boat at gunpoint and forced to pick cotton for years until your owner eventually beats you a bit too hard and you die Soviets: Hey africans would you like a Visa and free university education with all living costs covered No, they're not "about equal". The British Empire lasted for centuries and it's known atrocities run far deeper than even the wildest poo poo Conquest and the Hearst papers could spin up about the USSR.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:18
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Soviets: Hey Ukrainians, would you like food? Haha there's no food! Stalin personally ate all of the food in the Ukraine. The rest of the USSR, however, was clearly having a bountiful harvest.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:32
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Soviets: Hey Ukrainians, would you like food? Haha there's no food! British: Hey Irish, would you like food? Haha there's no food! British: Hey, Indians, would you like food? Haha there's no food! Is Gandhi dead yet lmao?
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Jul 21, 2015 03:35
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MrNemo posted:Holy poo poo free will. Great so you accept we have certain biological limitations? Free will is about our ability to make choices within the constraints of our physical situation, the fact that I can't choose to take wing and soar through the sky by myself isn't a limitation on my free will. Being a good person is not rendered impossible by basic human biology. To compare the simple idea of Being Excellent To Each Other (Communist Party On Dudes) to trying to fly by flapping wings you don't have is utterly moronic. The rest of that ignorant poo poo you said has already been answered a long time ago, so I recommend maybe reading some Marx so you're at least caught up with 19th century political economy. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 03:59
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Fojar38 posted:Oh my god. It's literally true. You might as well critique the Obama administration as if it was a monarchy for all the good it'd do.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:48
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^ I don't think that's a very good way of thinking about it. The DPRK has broken from the Communist project because it's impossible for such a thing to continue in their extremely isolated state. Juche can be boiled down to a desire to preserve themselves exactly as they are for as long as possible entirely out of spite towards those who've ever wronged them, which is why they're so consistently antiamerican in rhetoric despite the obvious gains to be had in collaboration instead. They're a fascinating country, no threat to communists, but nobody's role model either. Don't poke the hornet nest, everyone. Fojar38 posted:You are the first person I have ever seen that treated Juche as if it were an actual thing. I don't think you've met many North Koreans, then. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 04:54
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Fojar38 posted:Oh, what did all the North Koreans you've met say? Quite a lot, they were entirely candid about no longer seeing the communist stage of development as attainable for their country without a dramatic shift in world politics equal to at least a reversal of the fall of the soviet bloc, about how the DPRK has essentially dug trenches in and focuses on self preservation above all, etc. They showed me a cool book of North Korean agitprop, and told me that the embassy was going to be hosting an art gallery soon (2014). They also laughed when one of us brought up all the Wacky North Koreans propaganda that tabloids like to publish. Unsurprisingly to everyone except GBS and D&D posters, they neither believe in unicorns or that story about 18 holes in one. All things considered the ones I met were very nice.
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Jul 21, 2015 05:15
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Fojar38 posted:You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical about your reports that the North Koreans pine for the return of the Soviet bloc more than anything else and not, say, South Korean standards of living. You can be as skeptical as you like about that because I didn't say it.
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Jul 21, 2015 05:26
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Fojar38 posted:That's what you said. You said that what North Koreans apparently told you they want is a return to communism brought on by the re-establishment of some sort of communist bloc. I'm saying you're full of poo poo. No, I literally did not say that. Here's what I said, without key words removed or ignored by you: HorseLord posted:they were entirely candid about no longer seeing the communist stage of development as attainable for their country without a dramatic shift in world politics equal to at least a reversal of the fall of the soviet bloc This what you quoted. In it, I say how the North Koreans I have spoken to have given up on communism, because they see it as no longer possible for the DPRK. They think that something amazingly huge and very unlikely would have to happen to change that. The example of such a thing would be if the Soviet Bloc somehow magically returned. Nowhere in this is there a judgement on if they would like to live as well as South Koreans or not. That is the entire meaning of what you quoted. Do you often need incredibly clear things explaining to you? Perhaps you should hire a helper. Maybe for people like you, lowtax can make a special "simple english somethingawful". Or perhaps a browser plugin that reads all the words, extra slow, so you don't miss any? HorseLord fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 05:34
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Fojar38 posted:Lol at the notion that the majority of North Koreans are ideologically motivated enough to want "communism" specifically and not "to stop starving to death." This is your notion. Remember that literally in my last post I had to underline how you're misreading and making poo poo up. You're still struggling with "given up on", and I have no idea what gives you the idea I'm claiming DPRK state ideology as communicated to me by individual Koreans has any bearing on the ideological motivation of any Korean that I've not met. I suppose you'll get it eventually? Fojar38 posted:I'd really like to know more about this North Korean you spoke to. Was this in England or did you go to South Korea? When was it? Where were they educated? Were you actually talking about Marxist theory or were they just using "communism" as shorthand for the above "not starving to death" ideology? Why would I go to South Korea to talk to North Koreans? That's like going to Wales to talk to Americans. London, Last year, didn't ask, the former, and people like you have been going "lol North Koreans all starve to death 24/7" for so long that if it was true they would have all finished doing it by now. Generally speaking "Starving to death" is something that tends to become past tense for the people doing it, one way or another. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 06:01
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Fojar38 posted:Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Hint: If I was going to travel outside of my country to meet North Koreans, I would go to North Korea. You can do that.
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Jul 21, 2015 06:08
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Typo posted:dude it's pointless to argue horselord is like an unironic stalinist that even most of the hard left stays away from Trotskyists aren't hard left, you'll notice they're in power in Greece right now and are being huge pussies over everything.
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Jul 21, 2015 17:31
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Fojar38 posted:the insinuation that a North Korean told a Stalinist that the best way to save North Korea is to bring back the Soviet bloc. This is your insinuation, and nobody else's,
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Jul 21, 2015 19:14
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Fojar38 posted:Oh yeah, I'm also lolling at "why would I go to South Korea to talk to North Koreans instead of just going to North Korea?" Are you struggling to see the connection between North Koreans and North Korea?
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Jul 21, 2015 19:30
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TheImmigrant posted:Foreign visitors to DPRK are not permitted to speak to random North Koreans. Any North Koreans a foreigner converses with are either elites with foreign-travel privileges, or refugees (e.g. hiding in Dandong or resettled in Seoul) who fled. I don't think people who refer to North Koreans as "norks" in 2015 gets to pretend to be an authority on them.
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Jul 21, 2015 20:17
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TheImmigrant posted:you don't know the first thing about North Korean other than that you are happy to see Norks die in the service of your fanboy slavery to ideology. [citation needed]
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Jul 21, 2015 21:07
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The Snark posted:Kim Yong Un : Better or Worse Glorious Leader than Stalin? He recently cured all cancer, you know. What tabloid claims Koreans believe that, then?
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Jul 22, 2015 04:54
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The Korean Central News Agency published the story. It's hard to say if anyone in North Korea actually believes half the poo poo the KCNA puts out or if it's all purely for outside consumption. If it is, I don't know how anyone else is supposed to believe it either but it could be some kind of complicated 12th-dimensional troll that they've kept going for 60 years. Go on, show us the KCNA report of what you're saying. EDIT: I've actually googled this. I can't find any claim of the sort except on western and south korean news outlets, the same ones that claim North Koreans think Kim Jong Un learned to drive at 3, or discovered unicorns. It's all just made up poo poo because they know you'll fall for it and go "lol look at those stupid brainwashed koreans!". Dehumanizing the "commies" is a cold war tradition. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 06:04
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Betting on "we have a new drug that looks promising for some things" and not "Kim Jong Un personally blessed us with the cure to all disease".
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Jul 22, 2015 06:44
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