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I'm sure that many BFC regulars have feasted on the schadenfreude contained within the bad with money thread. I know I have. But lately I have wrestled with the idea that perhaps one could be too good with money? I have been able to secure a well paying job and for the last year or so have been on the lookout to minimise my expenditure, ala https://www.mrmoneymustache.com. However, I have been constantly asking myself, how deep do you cut? How deep is too deep, verging on the ridiculous? Perhaps this thread could be used to trade tips, hints and tricks (earnestly) on lowering day to day costs. Given the wide disparity of the average goon's budget, I'm sure hilarity will ensue.
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Jul 27, 2015 16:41
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| # ? May 7, 2024 13:30 |
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Probably that lady that makes somewhere in the six figures and only eats found food and doesn't bathe because toiletries and water are too expensive.
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Jul 27, 2015 16:46
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Being too extremely frugal is also being bad with money. Everyone will weigh the risks vs enjoyment of life differently and everyone could point to poor spending in someone else's life. I don't think being a slave to efficiency is worth the money saved in extreme examples. When I started working my first real job, I was addicted to saving as much of it as possible by eating really cheap meals, cutting a lot of corners in my quality of life, and scrutinizing every single purchase. It was fun and satisfying at the time but I don't think it's the right way to go through life. Chinaman7000 fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 17:08
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Chinaman7000 posted:When I started working my first real job, I was addicted to saving as much of it as possible by eating really cheap meals, cutting a lot of corners in my quality of life, and scrutinizing every single purchase. It was fun and satisfying at the time but I don't think it's the right way to go through life.  If something is fun and satisfying isn't that exactly the kind of quality of life you should really be aiming for?
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Jul 27, 2015 18:57
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Don't cheap out on toilet paper or toothpaste. Everything else is fair play.
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Jul 27, 2015 20:11
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Cicero posted:
It was for a little bit, now I just budget and don't think about it too much and enjoy other things.
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Jul 27, 2015 20:22
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While I think living well below your means is a great thing to do, and I love Mr Money Mustache, I think there are some things he cuts way too deep. I read one article about not visiting certain friends very often because they lived like 45 minutes away. Maybe I'm forgetting a few details, but I think for a friend I could go the distance. There are other examples where some of his suggestions are a little less realistic unless you can really make the commitment. Then again, he prefers to spend the extra to go all organic, so he does have his luxuries. When you start to miss out on worthwhile experiences under the guise of frugality, I think that's being too tight with money, not necessarily good.
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Jul 27, 2015 20:36
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Every time someone mentions MMM, I read and see if there's any useful information to me. Here's where I lost him: quote:nd in the summer my house would be more comfortable at 75 degrees than the 86 level where I currently consider turning on the air conditioning. Welp. Sorry. I keep my house at 68 and I'll eat the three months of high electric bills to do it. Too Good With Money: Giving your infants heat stroke.
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Jul 27, 2015 20:47
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There efficiency and effectiveness. My mothers boyfriend constantly buys cheap stuff when he would get better value buying something higher quality. It's a lifelong habit and now that he's 80 it's unlikely that will change. You know you're being too cheap when everyone comments on it and does not see any benefit. I've probably always spent a little too much when I should have saved or invested more. I've also spent most of my working life debt free so I never borrowed to spent on luxuries. Now I'm more efficient and effective with my spending and missing out on less by travelling more. It's possible to be too good with money and use it less effectively (life style inflation or spending on going out when you could put the money towards travel instead).
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Jul 27, 2015 21:11
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Those who remember money is a means to an end, not an end unto itself, will do a better job of balancing frugality with living a full life. I personally focus on big efficiencies and mostly ignore the little ones. I go cheap on most items so I can go larger on experiences like travel and dining out with friends. I feel kinda sorry for those who are so pathologically cheap they forget to live any kind of real life and instead just keep saving for a future that never arrives.
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Jul 27, 2015 23:58
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Sabaka posted:Those who remember money is a means to an end, not an end unto itself (...) keep saving for a future that never arrives. Thanks for your post, I think the above neatly sums up how I feel about my current situation. A few years back I saw an opportunity to retire early, if I could maintain my income and save all the cash I could. But over time what was fun to think about has developed a stranglehold on my life, as every dollar spent is one dollar further away from my goal. I think the take away is that if you think life is passing you by, it probably is.
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Jul 28, 2015 01:58
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I save around 2/3 of my post-tax income. And I struggle with this too. I consciously try to encourage myself to buy more expensive things and enjoy life more. Lately, I have been buying fresh sushi instead of waiting for 8pm when the supermarket discounts them off. It is kinda stupid when I already saved up so much, but I still feel a slight sense of horror at paying for fresh sushi. I think growing up poor messed me up a bit.
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Jul 28, 2015 08:08
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Sabaka posted:I feel kinda sorry for those who are so pathologically cheap they forget to live any kind of real life and instead just keep saving for a future that never arrives. I tell myself that I will stop once I have around a million. That is when it is safe, and I can afford to really let loose. I don't know if I really will.
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Jul 28, 2015 08:11
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Sabaka posted:I feel kinda sorry for those who are so pathologically cheap they forget to live any kind of real life and instead just keep saving for a future that never arrives. Pathological might be the right way of putting it. I can understand the greedy people. I know people who work all day every day, went to school forever and got a really marketable education, opened their own business and pretty much live to run it, etc. etc. Because they want the finer things. The money comes in and then it turns around to go into a huge house in the nicest part of town or a thousands of dollars wine ordering habit or a small fleet of high-end cards or what have you. This is understandable because they want the best poo poo all the time and that is expensive. Then there are the people who don't want any of that poo poo but want a ton of money anyway. People who don't give half a poo poo about the prestige of being rich, who aren't cutting everything to retire by 40, who are so cheap they don't even like going out to eat at a nice restaurant, much less living or traveling in any kind of luxury. But will plan their lives (in many cases successfully) in painful detail around maximizing the amount of money that's coming in while keeping the tightest clamp possible on money going out. What in the hell for? I can understand growing up poor and having a really insecure attitude about money drilled into your head from day one, but I know some of these people that didn't grow up poor and appear to have consciously embraced this as a lifestyle choice that they're happy with. It's better than the more common extreme of living balls deep in credit card debt because the voice in the TV told you that you deserved a new car, but I don't understand it.
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Jul 28, 2015 08:43
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John Smith posted:I tell myself that I will stop once I have around a million. That is when it is safe, and I can afford to really let loose. I don't know if I really will. Poverty mindset isn't something that will disappear once you have $1m. It's ok to buy it fresh especially with a 66% saving rate. A savings rate of 50% is good enough for early retirement which is the figure I'm using. However I have a minimum savings rate of 15% gross income as a hard limit so I have some flexibility, if needed. Although it's a matter of how safe you feel spending more (in China people save 30-80% because they know they can't rely on the Government). I do like buying half price sushi though which is 3-4 hours after lunch time. Makes for a nice early dinner prior to doing other stuff and I find getting it cheap to be a fun game rather than something I feel bad about. I say get into the discount sushi thing unless it interferes with what you want to do.
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Jul 28, 2015 10:46
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Setting out to buy a house and finding out that it's going to be a giant pain in the rear end because you have literally no credit score whatsoever is always fun.
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Jul 28, 2015 13:33
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Don't you ultra savers use a credit card for the rewards? You could be getting 1.75% cash back on that stale sushi? You can set it up so it pays itself off monthly.
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Jul 28, 2015 13:59
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Marslando posted:However, I have been constantly asking myself, how deep do you cut? How deep is too deep, verging on the ridiculous? It's different for everyone. I'll assume you don't have debt. - Start with saving for the future, retirement / investment accounts and an emergency fund. What's "enough"? That's up to you. - Next move onto saving for the short term (house fund, vacations, car replacement, gifts, insurance, whatever) Doing both of those? Congrats, spend some money on frivolous poo poo! Don't feel like buying frivolous poo poo? Either adjust your short/long term savings, or just save it until you feel like buying something frivolous!
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Jul 28, 2015 14:17
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I think you have to ask yourself if your spending habits are affecting your life in a negative way. Is it preventing you from spending time with friends or pursuing hobbies or activities? If you are making yourself unhappy because you are fretting about all your spending you should try to start mindfully changing your habits. If you are unable to do that on your own, you should consider seeking professional help / therapy. A friend of mine is so cheap that he chooses to not buy a kayak that he would use all the time and would make him very happy. He can easily afford this sort of purchase, but for some reason his need to be cheap overrides this.
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Jul 28, 2015 14:31
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I think was too caught up on paying debt and saving and I let life me pass me by. I lost a lot by not spending money for a few more meals out or a nice vacation. I have pretty much completely changed how I live now and it is much better. I still end up with a $1-1.5k surplus and I am doing better things and living a better life. For example I knew I was out of money on the dining out category this month but it was my girlfriends birthday this weekend. Went out three times and am $80 over budget but it was completely worth every dime. I realize I would rather have less money and enjoy a better life then holding all kinds of cash.
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Jul 28, 2015 15:24
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spwrozek posted:I lost a lot by not spending money for a few more meals out or a nice vacation. Can you elaborate?
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Jul 28, 2015 16:40
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I just want to echo what a lot of other posters have said. While its really stupid to inundate yourself with debt for ~*things*~ it is also important to do the things you want to do, while you're able, because you never know whether you'll make it to retirement, or be active enough to enjoy it. My husband and I are pretty frugal by default, but we've started prioritizing travel as we both have good health and are able to travel right now, which is not something we can assume will be the case in 10-15-20 whatever years.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:22
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Personally, I think you can take frugality as far as you want as long as it's not hurting anyone you care about, ideally with your significant other being on board. The trick is to embrace living cheaply and efficiently as a challenge that you enjoy. I enjoy never eating out, because it's a challenge to make sure I plan my meals appropriately so I don't get hangry and am forced to eat out. I enjoy biking everywhere I go, because it means I have less time for TV. Rick Rickshaw fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 17:41
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Grouco posted:Can you elaborate? I don't really budget anymore, and if I want to do something, I do it. If you're naturally frugal and are already hitting your target savings goals, I don't think it makes sense to agonize over every purchase.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:44
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Being Good With Money should be a tool to achieve the things you want in life, not the achievement itself. Start with your goals for life - what do you value now, what do you want to do in the mid term, and what are your long term goals? My wife and I want a house, want to retire early, and want security in case someone loses a job or has a health problem in the next 20-25 years. But we also want to travel the country and travel the world while we're still younger. To achieve all of this we look at other places to cut. We eat out way less than we could, and when we do it's based around trying a new experience or meeting up with friends. We bought lower level Kias instead of nicer cars, and since the warranty is great and we're nice to them we're gonna keep them for 10+ years. We don't buy new furnishings often, and when we do we wait for great deals. We have friends over for drinks a lot instead of going to the bar - the bill is cheaper even if we buy for everyone, and the conversation is better. We also made some decisions to make our goals fit together better. We're going to buy a house in a nice area, but it's going to be smaller than many people would expect given our income. We're traveling domestically while our income is lower, and we're saving the international travel for when our income is higher. We're learning to live on less now so we don't need nearly as much to retire with, or to live on in case of a job or health emergency. Being Good With Money is how we're going to obtain our goal to live what we feel is a full and enjoyable life.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:50
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Grouco posted:Can you elaborate? When I graduated from college, I went backpacking through Europe for four weeks. Most of my friends didn't feel like it was worth it because it was too much money. Now, most of us have jobs and the money is I spent vacationing is relatively insignificant compared the cost of taking the limited vacation time available. Throughout my life, before I got a career job, I could have spent more money and had more fun, but I'd usually chose to save. I would definitely enjoyed spending that money more at the time than having saved it up for use now. It's a difficult problem to solve because you can only guess how much you will need money in the future. For a gaming analogy, it is like saving potions because you might need them later, and then ending the game with a billion unused potions.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:13
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ProSlayer posted:For a gaming analogy, it is like saving potions because you might need them later, and then ending the game with a billion unused potions. But you should be proud you managed to get by with so little.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:19
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Rick Rickshaw posted:But you should be proud you managed to get by with so little. To what end though? Frugality isn't the means and the end. That's like Ryan Bingham collecting airline miles in Up in the Air just for the sake of collecting airline miles.
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Jul 28, 2015 20:47
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Elephanthead posted:Don't you ultra savers use a credit card for the rewards? You could be getting 1.75% cash back on that stale sushi? You can set it up so it pays itself off monthly. I milk my credit card rewards as much as possible. So if there are expenses I can put on the credit card then I do. I also use thepointsguy approach with the airpoint dollars/airmiles so if I'm ordering something online that's in the rewards mall then I use that as well to double dip as much as possible. If I'm lucky I'll get points on amex, airpoints dollars and tax write off if it's a business expense. The amex is handy as the local version I have is good for gift cards for places I actually shop at. I fly a lot more these days so any free flights are good, and the amex pays for travel insurance. Some drat good benefits and free stuff.
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Jul 28, 2015 21:14
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My grandfather grew up really poor and was super extra frugal to the point where he'd use things until they were totally irreparably broken and would refuse to buy a new one until that point, his children would often secretly replace his appliances while he was out of the house just for safety's sake--- for example he wouldn't throw away his toaster and get a new one because it "still worked" even though it'd burn the toast to a crisp every time and was a fire hazard. Instead of just being a miser forever hoarding his money he spent it on stuff like paying his grandchildren's college tuition and traveling. His goal was to keep the money snowballing down through the generations, if he could help his kids and grandkids get out of college debt fee we'd be able to save and invest more of our income when we're young and then when we're old we can afford to pay it forward to the next generation, etc. It's been working so far and is an inspiration for saving up as much now as we can so we can do the same for our kids in the future.
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Jul 29, 2015 00:23
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n8r posted:I think you have to ask yourself if your spending habits are affecting your life in a negative way. Is it preventing you from spending time with friends or pursuing hobbies or activities? If you are making yourself unhappy because you are fretting about all your spending you should try to start mindfully changing your habits. If you are unable to do that on your own, you should consider seeking professional help / therapy. Agreed, though from the opposite direction: It's easy to save lots of money if you feel loving miserable and never want to do anything fun or interesting. Depression is the cheapest hobby to have; I'm saying that from experience. Pittsburgh Lambic fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 02:44
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Aquatic Giraffe posted:My grandfather grew up really poor and was super extra frugal to the point where he'd use things until they were totally irreparably broken and would refuse to buy a new one until that point, his children would often secretly replace his appliances while he was out of the house just for safety's sake--- for example he wouldn't throw away his toaster and get a new one because it "still worked" even though it'd burn the toast to a crisp every time and was a fire hazard. That sounds really great until you realize most wealth does not last more than three generations. Sooner or later, one of the generations is going to take the free college tuition and then tell their kids to take out loans to pay for theirs.
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Jul 29, 2015 16:09
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ProSlayer posted:That sounds really great until you realize most wealth does not last more than three generations. Sooner or later, one of the generations is going to take the free college tuition and then tell their kids to take out loans to pay for theirs. This is awfully defeatist. I'd argue that even if your great-grandchildren squander their inherited wealth you still provided them with a legacy. What better thing can you do for family that you may never meet? (besides consciously raising your children and grandchildren with love, guidance, and acceptance.) My father-in-law has shown me what it means to be a great patriarch in a family. He provided my wife and her siblings with college tuition, and I have a feeling he has funds setup for his grandchildren as well. As someone who is on the cusp of becoming a father myself, I think about my parents and grandparents who will leave nothing to the future generations of their families. The thought of dying and leaving nothing to the people I love makes me feel like utter poo poo, and I'm not even a father yet. Pittsburgh Lambic posted:Agreed, though from the opposite direction: It's easy to save lots of money if you feel loving miserable and never want to do anything fun or interesting. Depression is the cheapest hobby to have; I'm saying that from experience. I'd be interested to see some statistics, I'd be willing to bet there's a correlation between frugality and other mental illness; such as anxiety, depression, emotional abuse, childhood trauma (growing up in poverty).
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Jul 29, 2015 17:54
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fruition posted:As someone who is on the cusp of becoming a father myself, I think about my parents and grandparents who will leave nothing to the future generations of their families. The thought of dying and leaving nothing to the people I love makes me feel like utter poo poo, and I'm not even a father yet. Assuming they weren't poo poo parents, they still did a lot for you. Oh no, they won't horde their money and die for your benefit, what assholes they are.
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Jul 29, 2015 18:51
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moana posted:I don't really budget anymore, and if I want to do something, I do it. If you're naturally frugal and are already hitting your target savings goals, I don't think it makes sense to agonize over every purchase. I do pretty much the same thing. I have a certain amount of money deducted out of each paycheck automatically (10% 401k, max Roth, max HSA, $200 personal savings), all of which totals up to more than 34% of my take-home pay. I added up my needs like housing, food, and car insurance, just to make sure that doesn't go above 45% or so of my take-home. The rest though? Who cares! Most months I have an extra couple of hundred dollars to throw into savings above and beyond the automatic stuff. This month though, I know I'm in the red because I've had friends in town and I've eaten out a LOT more than I should have, and I've gone and done things that cost money. Inept posted:Assuming they weren't poo poo parents, they still did a lot for you. Oh no, they won't horde their money and die for your benefit, what assholes they are. DJCobol fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 19:38
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moana posted:I did this for sure. When I lived in NYC, I was scrimping on a teacher's salary to be able to max out my retirement savings and didn't really ever go out to eat or do much. I feel like I missed out on a lot that there was to offer there. When I moved to Vancouver, I let myself go out to eat every couple of weeks at nicer places with my friends, and those were truly memorable experiences - I can still taste the mussels and fries at the Twisted Fork, and I'm glad I got to try more local cuisine (lots of seafood, poutine, etc) instead of making spaghetti at home every single night like I did in NYC. And I spent money going snowshoeing, which is something I'd never done. Basically not letting frugality get in the way of trying cool new things. To me, that feels the same as spending your vacation in Paris making PB&Js. You've already spent all the money to get there, switch to a cheaper breakfast cereal or give up cable in order to get the full experience. Does not apply if you live in a Phoenix suburb and are going to Olive Garden and Subway four times a week
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Jul 29, 2015 22:21
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DJCobol posted:Exactly. Why do your parents and grandparents owe you anything? They lived their life, they earned the money, let them enjoy it. I didn't get poo poo when my mom passed away, and when my dad eventually goes, I doubt I'll get much from that either. Maybe enough to put him in the ground. I hope he enjoys the retirement he worked for and doesn't worry about me or my sister and leaving us anything. They don't "owe" me anything, but personally, I'm making it one of my life's goals to pass on wealth guidance as well as a decent estate to my children and grandchildren because, well, I care about leaving a legacy and knowing my loved ones have the tools to live a good life long after I'm gone. FWIW my family are poo poo parents and grandparents, so there's a lot of anger there to begin with. They are perfectly fine placing guilt on me with expectations about taking care of them in old age, because they squandered all their lifetime earnings and never invested their money. Who do you want to be? The grandpa who drank and smoked and watched TV in your parents living room until he died? Or the grandpa who rolled around like a boss and took you on vacations and paid for your college tuition?
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Jul 29, 2015 22:52
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The correct answer is bad grandpa who takes his adult grandchildren out drinking scotch, smoking cigars and taking them out on his boat to fire handguns at drones.
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Jul 29, 2015 23:09
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Many parents transfer some or all of their wealth to their children by providing them with food, shelter, education and entertainment over an 18 year period from birth to adulthood.
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Jul 29, 2015 23:11
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canyoneer posted:To me, that feels the same as spending your vacation in Paris making PB&Js. You've already spent all the money to get there, switch to a cheaper breakfast cereal or give up cable in order to get the full experience.
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Jul 29, 2015 23:50
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