MrNemo posted:

In the context of the Cold War Israel was pretty close to neutral, I used the phrase to differentiate from selling secrets to a nation that is actively antagonistic or at war with your own nation where I can see greater desire for the strongest possible deterrence. Ultimately I can't see a workable justification for treating this crime as different from what Manning or Snoweden did and I couldn't in all conscience endorse the death penalty or life imprisonment for either of them. I don't think legal cases should be decided on an ideological basis.

Gravel Gravy posted:

Are you forgetting his contacts with South Africa and Pakistan? Ideology isn't a big factor here, he just really liked money.

Mandy Thompson posted:

And what he did was wrong but he didn't do it yesterday. We should be ready to forgive people. He's done his penance. It would be the Christian thing to do.

Gravel Gravy posted:

When has "Christian thing to do" ever factored into national security?

Mandy Thompson posted:

And what he did was wrong but he didn't do it yesterday. We should be ready to forgive people. He's done his penance. It would be the Christian thing to do.

OwlFancier posted:

Forgiveness is only good when it's productive. In the case of people who are absolutely antisocial and are not driven to it by any sort of desperation or need, but simply greed, and whose existence causes political difficulties and serves as a rallying point for deranged nationalists, it is entirely reasonable to simply kill them.

Mandy Thompson posted:

The first part applies to ordinary common violent criminals and drug dealers but I think most people here would say that an armed robber or drug dealer should have an opportunity for parole if they have done their time, been a model prisoner, and participated in programs to rehabilitate themselves. The second part suggests that you're not willing to extend him the same courtesy because of politics. Yes Israel is terrible and nationalists are assholes but we have to look at the person first. Otherwise we are just being stubborn and contrary to nationalists like Republicans are to Obama. We should be consistent instead of changing our views to be contrary to someone we don't like. Justice is supposed to be blind to politics.

Mandy Thompson posted:

The first part applies to ordinary common violent criminals and drug dealers but I think most people here would say that an armed robber or drug dealer should have an opportunity for parole if they have done their time, been a model prisoner, and participated in programs to rehabilitate themselves. The second part suggests that you're not willing to extend him the same courtesy because of politics. Yes Israel is terrible and nationalists are assholes but we have to look at the person first. Otherwise we are just being stubborn and contrary to nationalists like Republicans are to Obama. We should be consistent instead of changing our views to be contrary to someone we don't like. Justice is supposed to be blind to politics.

CommieGIR posted:

Considering he is pretty insistent that he did this to 'support Israel', even going so far as to attempt to renounce his US Citizenship, and despite him attempting to open weapons and intel sales with Iran, South Africa, and Pakistan which flies in the face of his claims about his dedication to Israel, I think its safe to say he has in no way been rehabilitated.

He's a scummy traitor, a liar, and a profiteer.

Gravel Gravy posted:

He sold out the security of at least 300 million people by selling as much information as he could to whoever would take it for material gain. Stop being willfully dense.

Mandy Thompson posted:

And that is something to be take into consideration with the totality of what he has done in prison, by a blind, impartial, and objective parole board and court system rather than wrathful mobs based on whether they like Israel or not.

Mandy Thompson posted:

30 years ago. We should be willing to forgive people.

Mandy Thompson posted:

30 years ago. We should be willing to forgive people.

Gravel Gravy posted:

Why? How would this serve national interests?

Mandy Thompson posted:

Justice isn't meant to serve national interests. Justice is blind. National interests aren't justice.

Mandy Thompson posted:

Justice isn't meant to serve national interests. Justice is blind. National interests aren't justice.

CommieGIR posted:

Spies tend to ignore justice for personal gain or other nation's interests.

Mandy Thompson posted:

As do any other common thieves, but we are willing to parole thieves.

Mandy Thompson posted:

As do any other common thieves, but we are willing to parole thieves.

CommieGIR posted:

Spies tend to ignore justice for personal gain or other nation's interests.

He should be serving life in prison for possible endangering national security assets, which by the way includes living breathing people.

CommieGIR posted:

Oh, shut up.

We're doing this based on the fact that he thought only of himself when stealing US National Intelligence assets and selling them to the highest bidder, while claiming to support a country who CLAIMS to be one of our greatest allies that then proceeded to TREAT US LIKE DIRT when we attempted to investigate a major security breach. We fund this same country with US Tax Dollars, so there is NO EXCUSE for their actions or their response.


That isn't how being a spy works. Sorry.

CommieGIR posted:

What about murderers? Since its very likely some of the assets he stole might have gotten people killed.

Gravel Gravy posted:

So? There is only one abstract concept that has any relevance here.

quote:

In that sense should Jeffrey Dahmer be parolled since he only thieved other peoples' torsos?

CommieGIR posted:

What about murderers? Since its very likely some of the assets he stole might have gotten people killed.

Mandy Thompson posted:

Well first of all Jeffrey Dahmer is dead so that is a moot point. But even if he was still alive, he was not a model prisoner at all, showed no evidence of trying to change, and would be very likely to commit another crime if he was released.

Obdicut posted:

The point is your opinion of Israel shouldn't play into whether or not he gets granted parole or not. It should only be based on what it is for everyone else. Is he going to reoffend? No. He won't possibly have the capacity. If he's met the legal standard for release he should be released.


Um, yeah, we parole murderers.

CommieGIR posted:

Neither is Jonathan Pollard. He's shown zero remorse for the actions he took. So, what is your point?

He's turned into a sideshow for the Israeli public, made a 'hero' and plays as much from within his cell.

Mandy Thompson posted:

My loyalty is first to God, then to justice, and to the "national interests" of the international proletariat.

Mandy Thompson posted:

Well first of all Jeffrey Dahmer is dead so that is a moot point. But even if he was still alive, he was not a model prisoner at all, showed no evidence of trying to change, and would be very likely to commit another crime if he was released.

Mandy Thompson posted:

Yet many of you still seem to be calling for the release of Chelsea Manning (I agree) and it doesn't seem as though she has shown remorse.

CommieGIR posted:

Uhhhhhhhh.....

What? Are you comparing a guy who stole and sold intelligence assets for financial gain to guys who were trying to blow the whistle? Are you serious?

Mandy Thompson posted:

Yet many of you still seem to be calling for the release of Chelsea Manning (I agree) and it doesn't seem as though she has shown remorse.

Also the parole board seems to believe releasing him is consistent with their procedures.

CommieGIR posted:

CommieGIR posted:

He'll be released because that is the deal he got. I can't argue with that. I don't think he deserves to be released at all, considering how little remorse he's shown.

quote:

There is a very large difference in intent between Manning and Pollard. Pollard sold secrets and actively courted foreign nations.

Mandy Thompson posted:

The first part applies to ordinary common violent criminals and drug dealers but I think most people here would say that an armed robber or drug dealer should have an opportunity for parole if they have done their time, been a model prisoner, and participated in programs to rehabilitate themselves. The second part suggests that you're not willing to extend him the same courtesy because of politics. Yes Israel is terrible and nationalists are assholes but we have to look at the person first. Otherwise we are just being stubborn and contrary to nationalists like Republicans are to Obama. We should be consistent instead of changing our views to be contrary to someone we don't like. Justice is supposed to be blind to politics.

Obdicut posted:

This means Pollard committed an additional crime, which was the sale of the secrets. From a national security standpoint, though, broader release of the information is more damaging, and Manning released more than was necessary to just do whistle-blowing. She didn't even know everything she was releasing. It isn't inappropriate to note that if you want to be super-harsh on Pollard you give ammo to those who want to be harsh towards Manning--and Snowden.

OwlFancier posted:

Not really, espionage is one of the least justifiable crimes one can commit. It's moderately well off people who are well educated and well trained trying to make money off of attacking the inner workings of a society. They don't need to do it, they just want to. Violent crime and theft is predominantly crime of desperation and passion, people either aren't thinking or are in a position where they feel they have little alternative, so no amount of punishment is going to deter that, unless you provide a reasonable alternative. In the case of espionage there are plenty of reasonable alternative ways to live but the person consciously decides to behave antisocially to further their own goals. It isn't that they are in a desperate situation, it's that they are greedy to the point of showing a complete disregard for the wellbeing of others.

In that instance I would consider it more expedient to simply shoot the fucker as an example to the rest.

Obdicut posted:

Remorse is only considered in so far as it has to do with recidivism. In addition, remorse is one of those things I think is shittiest and most manipulable about the parole system. Cry some tears, say you found Jesus, and you get out quicker than a guy who disagrees with the level of punishment he got for the crime. It is mostly a show, but then, so are almost all aspects of our system when it comes to rehabilitation.

Mandy Thompson posted:

My loyalty is first to God, then to justice, and to the "national interests" of the international proletariat.

Mandy Thompson posted:

Justice isn't meant to serve national interests. Justice is blind. National interests aren't justice.

Mandy Thompson posted:

As do any other common thieves, but we are willing to parole thieves.

CommieGIR posted:

A good point. We're comparing crimes of people who generally suffer from poverty or poor upbringing to a guy who was moderately financially stable and, during his espionage days, raking in large amounts of cash and gifts.

Narciss posted:

I'm very disappointed to see so many posters falling for the "He's a Jew so he did it for the shekels" meme.

quote:

Within a few days, in June 1984 Pollard started passing classified information to Sella. He was paid $10,000 cash and given a very expensive diamond and sapphire ring, which Pollard later offered to his girlfriend Anne when proposing to her. Pollard was paid well by the Israelis: he received a salary that eventually reached $2,500 a month, and tens of thousands of dollars in cash disbursements for hotels, meals, and jewelry. In his pre-sentencing statement to Judge Robinson, Pollard said the money was a benefit that was forced on him. "I did accept money for my services," he acknowledged, but only "as a reflection of how well I was doing my job." He said that he had later told his controller, Rafi Eitan, a longtime spy who at the time headed Lekem, a scientific-intelligence unit in Israel, that "I not only intended to repay all the money I'd received but, also, was going to establish a chair at the Israeli General Staff's Intelligence Training Center outside Tel Aviv."[26][27]

Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) investigator Ronald Olive has alleged that Pollard passed classified information to South Africa,[28] and attempted, through a third party, to sell classified information to Pakistan on multiple occasions.[29] Pollard also stole classified documents related to China on behalf of his wife, who used the information to advance her personal business-interests. She kept these secret materials around the house, where investigating authorities discovered them when Pollard's espionage activity came to light

CommieGIR posted:

True, the main problem being that Manning and Snowden was just releasing for general release, they didn't (as far as we know) seek to sell such assets or, even worse, arrange weapons sales with foreign nations like Pollard.


A good point. We're comparing crimes of people who generally suffer from poverty or poor upbringing to a guy who was moderately financially stable and, during his espionage days, raking in large amounts of cash and gifts.

Narciss posted:

I'm very disappointed to see so many posters falling for the "He's a Jew so he did it for the shekels" meme.

Gravel Gravy posted:

Not so, see Charles Manson.

CommieGIR posted:

True, the main problem being that Manning and Snowden was just releasing for general release, they didn't (as far as we know) seek to sell such assets or, even worse, arrange weapons sales with foreign nations like Pollard.

Mandy Thompson posted:

Then consider the wall street banks that are the wealthiest among us who completely collapsed the economy. We give them very short sentences or fines even if what they do is often as destructive as any spy.

Obdicut posted:

Yes, as i said, that means Pollard committed an additional crime. The idea that either Manning or Snowden would be likely to not do this again, though, is far less precisely because they were ideological, though. If your argument is to imprison people because they don't feel any remorse, then that will really obviously apply to Snowden and I think to Manning, though I don't know too much about her psyche now.

Mandy Thompson posted:

Then consider the wall street banks that are the wealthiest among us who completely collapsed the economy. We give them very short sentences or fines even if what they do is often as destructive as any spy.

quote:

Madoff's projected release date is November 14, 2139.[121][122]

tsa posted:

CommieGIR posted:

That more speaks towards our need for better whistleblower protections, but also towards guidelines for whistleblowers in general.