|
OwlFancier posted:No, I am situationally for and against the death penalty. What pro and anti-death penalty mean, in common language, is "Are you in favor of the death penalty being allowed in any circumstances"? If this makes you uncomfortable, I don't know what to say. You're in favor of the death penalty in some circumstances, not others. This is true of every single death penalty supporter.
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 12:36 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:No, I am situationally for and against the death penalty. I think this is the position literally everybody who is on the pro-death penalty side takes though. People tend not to support the death penalty for jaywalking for instance, everybody who is pro-death penalty wants to apply it situationally.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:39
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:What pro and anti-death penalty mean, in common language, is "Are you in favor of the death penalty being allowed in any circumstances"? Pro Life/Pro Choice. Boiling complex arguments down to slogans to enhance your position is stupid. Everyone is pro life and pro choice. Every sound minded person is opposed to the use of the death penalty, but some people may believe it is productive in some instances, despite it being abhorrent. Pithy names for things exist to try to homogenise the opposition. They're stupid and you should avoid using them. Saying I am pro death-penalty is completely useless unless you're trying to lump everyone who doesn't 100% oppose its use in all situations together as having the same viewpoint, which is manifestly incorrect.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:43
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Pro Life/Pro Choice. If you believe the death penalty should be used under some circumstances, you are not opposed to the use of the death penalty.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:45
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Pro Life/Pro Choice. Or you know, the position of "the state should never be allowed to take a human life through the justice system" is a valid one which is shared by the majority of people in many countries and thus the label of anti-death is a useful one for that position. Face it, this comes down to the fact that you want to kill somebody for helping a political regime hated by the left but can't reconcile it with the new left's stance against the death penalty.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:45
|
|
|
Badger of Basra posted:If you believe the death penalty should be used under some circumstances, you are not opposed to the use of the death penalty. I can be opposed to its use but more opposed to the alternative.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:45
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I can be opposed to its use but more opposed to the alternative. What is the alternative?
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:46
|
|
|
Pollard is also not likely to be a huge danger to anyone. Not because he's repentant or any less of a degenerate shithead, but because he's going to be watched like a hawk. What do you think executing him would have done to change the situation?
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:46
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Pro Life/Pro Choice. No, everyone isn't pro-life and pro-choice. This is you not understanding what those words mean. Pro-choice means that a woman should have the choice on whether or not to abort her fetus, a choice made in concert with a doctor, without any considerations about health or rape. Pro-life means that you oppose abortion as a choice. There is a small amount of wiggle room in that pro-life people may allow it if it is risky to the mother's life, or if the fetus will be born dead, but that's a variety inside the pro-life position, not a confusion between the two. There really is a binary here. I am opposed, totally, to the death penalty. Under no circumstances, ever, should it be used. That is what 'anti-death penalty' means. Those people who believe it may be productive in some instances are pro-death penalty. This is not some attempt to homogenize the opposition, it's just a simple description of positions. I don't care about the distinction between you, who wants to execute people on your vague ideas that they will do further antisocial acts and are irredeemable, and someone else who wants to execute murders because he feels they're redeemable. Both positions have the same flaw.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:48
|
|
|
Badger of Basra posted:So the next time Germany or Brazil finds someone spying on them for us, you'd be cool if they just killed that person? If that person committed treason to do it then yes unless they were exposing some kind of abuse (in the case of people like manning).
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:52
|
|
|
Typo posted:Or you know, the position of "the state should never be allowed to take a human life through the justice system" is a valid one which is shared by the majority of people in many countries and thus the label of anti-death is a useful one for that position. No, I think absolutism is silly. The idea that everyone can be reformed is manifestly untrue. We lack the capacity to reform everyone and in some cases the cost of doing so may outweigh the benefit. In the majority of cases reform is preferable and would arguably be pursued by the same methods that crime prevention would be: The improvement of conditions for those driven to crime by necessity, perceived or actual. Removing the incitement to crime would greatly reduce the prevalence of many crimes, and would be worth doing for the general sake of improving the lot of as many people as possible. However, in the case of people who have no environmental incitement to crime, who simply commit crime against society for personal gain, because they lack a sense of social obligation despite having benefited greatly from society, there is far less you can practically do to prevent such a person from commiting crime. They have obviously decided that they are not bound by the same obligations the rest of us are, and in the case of Pollard, he apparently has not changed that view. Such a person is completely antisocial, is a danger to those around them and cannot ethically be permitted access to society at large, so they must either be incarcerated indefinitely, or simply killed. Killing them would ideally be cheaper than incarcerating them and the money thus saved can be put to better use. Last Buffalo posted:Pollard is also not likely to be a huge danger to anyone. Not because he's repentant or any less of a degenerate shithead, but because he's going to be watched like a hawk. Removed the need to imprison and observe him post-release.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:54
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:No, I think absolutism is silly. The idea that everyone can be reformed is manifestly untrue. We lack the capacity to reform everyone and in some cases the cost of doing so may outweigh the benefit. In the majority of cases reform is preferable and would arguably be pursued by the same methods that crime prevention would be: The improvement of conditions for those driven to crime by necessity, perceived or actual. Removing the incitement to crime would greatly reduce the prevalence of many crimes, and would be worth doing for the general sake of improving the lot of as many people as possible. How do you propose we ascertain with 100% certainty that a) a person cannot be redeemed at any point in the rest of their life and b) that new evidence will not appear to exonerate a person sentenced to death? If you find out, please contact the Governors of several US states.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:56
|
|
|
Badger of Basra posted:How do you propose we ascertain with 100% certainty that a) a person cannot be redeemed at any point in the rest of their life and b) that new evidence will not appear to exonerate a person sentenced to death? Not having managed it after 30 years in prison for a crime they have very clearly committed might be a good starting point.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:58
|
|
|
No, but see, he sold state secrets to Israel and, if released, would totally be willing and capable of doing it again. Someone who killed people in a home invasion deserves a better chance because they can repent by not having committed their crimes in aid of racist zionists or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 22:58
|
|
|
Pollard wasn't a spy by the way he was a traitor. The dude didn't set out with the goal of spying he just decided to betray his country and sell information to the highest bidder.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:04
|
|
|
What's the difference? He was doing the job of a spy (gathering intelligence) but was a freelancer. He was also a traitor. Apples and oranges, brah.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:07
|
|
|
Last Buffalo posted:What's the difference? He was doing the job of a spy (gathering intelligence) but was a freelancer. He was also a traitor. Apples and oranges, brah. Traitor has an extremely specific definition in the constitution. The United States has prosecuted spies but Pollard was prosecuted as a traitor.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:11
|
|
|
Venom Snake posted:Traitor has an extremely specific definition in the constitution. The United States has prosecuted spies but Pollard was prosecuted as a traitor. Why does this absolutely merit the death penalty? Why is treason worse than murder, or jaywalking, or double parking? Why do you keep bolding it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:55
|
|
|
Badger of Basra posted:Why does this absolutely merit the death penalty? Why is treason worse than murder, or jaywalking, or double parking? Why do you keep bolding it? Indeed, all value judgments are basically arbitrary, so why bother making them? The idea that murder is worse than jaywalking is wholly subjective. We ought to treat all crimes as misdemeanors.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:59
|
|
|
Badger of Basra posted:Why does this absolutely merit the death penalty? Why is treason worse than murder, or jaywalking, or double parking? Why do you keep bolding it? The worst serial killer can kill 60+ people. The worst traitor can kill millions. The reason why it's so bad is because it represents the selling out of not just the people directly around you but your entire society.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2015 23:59
|
|
|
Venom Snake posted:The worst serial killer can kill 60+ people. The worst traitor can kill millions. The reason why it's so bad is because it represents the selling out of not just the people directly around you but your entire society. So when is your next Pollard reenactment?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:00
|
|
|
Venom Snake posted:The worst serial killer can kill 60+ people. The worst traitor can kill millions. The reason why it's so bad is because it represents the selling out of not just the people directly around you but your entire society. He didn't kill millions though. Jack of Hearts posted:Indeed, all value judgments are basically arbitrary, so why bother making them? The idea that murder is worse than jaywalking is wholly subjective. We ought to treat all crimes as misdemeanors. How about "we ought to prevent the State from arbitrarily killing people, if we can."
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:00
|
|
|
Badger of Basra posted:He didn't kill millions though. The Founding Fathers actually shared your view. To accuse someone of being a traitor is really really hard to do. EDIT: And the dude came preeetty close considering a decent amount of the poo poo he shared ended up in the Soviet Union, if he hadn't been caught when he did... quote:So when is your next Pollard reenactment? 
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:03
|
|
|
Venom Snake posted:The Founding Fathers actually shared your view. To accuse someone of being a traitor is really really hard to do. My god you're right, if he had been allowed to continue unmolested they might've done a Holodomor on us.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:05
|
|
|
Badger of Basra posted:How about "we ought to prevent the State from arbitrarily killing people, if we can." Also an arbitrary judgment. Why is treason worse than jaywalking? You were the one to ask the question. From a practical standpoint, I'm also opposed to the death penalty, because without an even tighter standard than "beyond a reasonable doubt," innocent people will die. That doesn't mean I'm opposed to killing traitors, just that there's no practical way to do so.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:08
|
|
|
If there was an Israeli citizen imprisoned for selling their information to the US would we have the same reaction as they did to Pollard? I find it hard to imagine.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:17
|
|
|
IIRC a spy infiltrates your group from the outside. A traitor sells out his own. The Israeli guy handling Pollard was a spy. Pollard is a traitor to the Americans. Pollard was afforded certain rights and duties as a US citizens, which he abused while the Israeli spy was never expected to be loyal to the US.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:19
|
|
|
I think that if a lot of people here want to discuss the death penalty, it might be good to do that in a separate thread. Pollard was never on death row, and there are plenty of other, far more closely related topics to explore here.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 00:31
|
|
|
What are the possible terms of parole for Pollard? Can he be indefinitely banned from travel?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 06:29
|
|
|
AlexanderCA posted:IIRC a spy infiltrates your group from the outside. treason is defined as aiding and giving comfort to the enemies of the United States, I don't think the US government sees Israel as an enemy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 06:55
|
|
|
Typo posted:treason is defined as aiding and giving comfort to the enemies of the United States, I don't think the US government sees Israel as an enemy. He tried to sell the information to a bunch of places before contacting Israel.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 09:46
|
|
|
CSPAN Caller posted:What are the possible terms of parole for Pollard? Can he be indefinitely banned from travel? Not indefinitely but certainly for some long period of time. The issue for me is this is dumb because yay we get to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars monitoring a scumbag who doesn't want to be here for compliance with parole terms that he won't violate anyway.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 10:14
|
|
|
Adar posted:Not indefinitely but certainly for some long period of time. The issue for me is this is dumb because yay we get to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars monitoring a scumbag who doesn't want to be here for compliance with parole terms that he won't violate anyway. Government waste in the hundreds of thousands doesn't really seem too bad too me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 10:27
|
|
|
I don't support executing Jonathan Pollard judicially, but I entirely support someone breaking into his house and shooting him in the face and spraypainting "SMIERT SPIONAM" on the wall before the fucker can go to Israel. There is nuance here. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 13:09
|
|
|
 drat I would never have expected to find this much bloodthirst on here in a topic like this. I'll say this much, however: It would have been kind of nice if they had made it a condition that Mordechai Vanunu be allowed to leave Israel in return for Pollard's parole going through.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 13:51
|
|
|
CSPAN Caller posted:What are the possible terms of parole for Pollard? Can he be indefinitely banned from travel? IIRC, the terms of his parole are that he can't leave the US for 5 years after his release but many expect Obama to commute his sentence to time served and let him emigrate to Israel where he can hang out getting handjobs from every right-wing shitbag and be thrown a ticker-tape parade before settling down into obscurity at some state-funded villa on the Med. PrBacterio posted:
Treason is the worst crime that you can commit, absolutely the highest crime in the penal code. The fact that he did it, did it for money, is proud of it, and stands to be lauded as a hero for it in a country that's ostensibly our ally rankles something fierce. Zeroisanumber fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Aug 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 15:54
|
|
|
PrBacterio posted:
He was a pretty bad dude and an unrepentant, pathological liar. IIRC the FBI interviewed hundreds of people from throughout his life and not a single one could recall him mentioning Israel, Judaism, etc. Also, the SIGINT stuff he sold wasn't just a bunch of random info, it was incredibly dangerous material. From the Kaplan's article... quote:We now know (and M.E. Bowman, a senior counterintelligence officer who was working the Pollard case, has since confirmed) that the item in question was a National Security Agency manual called the RASIN, short for “Radio Signal Notations.” The RASIN was a guide to the physical parameters of every radio signal that the NSA was intercepting—a guide on how the NSA was tracking military communications, not just Israel’s but any and every country’s, including the Soviet Union’s. The RASIN was 10 volumes, and Pollard gave his Israeli handlers every single page of it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 15:57
|
|
|
Zeroisanumber posted:
He wasn't tried or convicted for treason. Ograbme posted:Is this actually true? No, it has a five year minimum sentence, there are other crimes with much higher minimums. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Aug 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 16:15
|
|
|
Zeroisanumber posted:Treason is the worst crime that you can commit, absolutely the highest crime in the penal code. Is this actually true?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 16:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 12:36 |
|
|
LOL at "Why is treason so bad guys? It's just another minor mistake like jaywalking!" But honestly J.Pollard should have been released 30 years ago... from the gallows where he was hanged. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2015 16:39
|
|
