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Mandy Thompson posted:Then consider the wall street banks that are the wealthiest among us who completely collapsed the economy. We give them very short sentences or fines even if what they do is often as destructive as any spy. I would wholeheartedly suggest shooting the bankers as well, just on general principles honestly, don't think you even need a trial for that.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:12
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I hope they gave Pollard a job at a substation and Pollard electrocutes himself until his eyeballs melt out of his sockets a la 1996 Genesis fighting game fatalities.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:14
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Obdicut posted:What Madoff did wasn't related to the financial meltdown. He ran a Ponzi scheme. Tomatoes tomatoes. There's other examples so whatever. It also was directly related to the meltdown as well, it wasn't some huge coincidence they blew up at the same time.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:14
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Madoff got harsh sentencing because he ripped off affluent whites and, quite possibly, a couple National Security controlled dummy corporations.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:15
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Obdicut posted:What do you mean by 'not so'? Do you not feel that a lack of remorse is an issue when it comes to Manson's parole hearings?
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Jul 30, 2015 17:16
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quote:On July 13, 2005, federal judge Barbara S. Jones, of the U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York in Manhattan, sentenced Ebbers to twenty-five years in a federal prison in Louisiana. Ebbers was allowed to remain free for another year while his appeal was being considered. His conviction was upheld in a federal circuit court on July 28, 2006.[26] On September 6, 2006, the presiding judge ordered him to report to jail[27] on September 26 to start serving his 25-year sentence. Ebbers reported to Oakdale Federal Correctional Institution in Oakdale, Louisiana on September 26, 2006, driving himself to the prison in his Mercedes.[28] He is serving his sentence as inmate #56022-054 [29] in the low-security portion of the complex, which typically houses non-violent offenders and is built more like a school dormitory. The earliest date he can be released is in July 2028, at which time he will be 87 years old.[30] Like seriously there's no shortage of examples I can pull from, we give long sentences to execs all the loving time. The reason nothing happened with a lot of wall street execs have to do with specifics and lack of evidence.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:17
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Gravel Gravy posted:Do you not feel that a lack of remorse is an issue when it comes to Manson's parole hearings? Sure, it isn't just his lack or remorse though, he continues to be violent, dysfunctional, disassociated from reality, and has repeatedly vowed to kill again when they let him out.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:19
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Mandy Thompson posted:Sure, it isn't just his lack or remorse though, he continues to be violent, dysfunctional, disassociated from reality, and has repeatedly vowed to kill again when they let him out. He's just an eccentric octogenarian though what's he going to do? I'm just saying it'd be the Christian thing to let bygones be bygones.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:21
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Mandy Thompson posted:Sure, it isn't just his lack or remorse though, he continues to be violent, dysfunctional, disassociated from reality, and has repeatedly vowed to kill again when they let him out.  Know who else doesn't show remorse for trying to sell state secrets?
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Jul 30, 2015 17:23
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tsa posted:Tomatoes tomatoes. There's other examples so whatever. It also was directly related to the meltdown as well, it wasn't some huge coincidence they blew up at the same time. No, more like tomatoes and red bowling balls. And it blew up because his clients asked for too much money as a result of the financial meltdown. he had no part in causing it, his cheat was a totally simple ponzi scheme. If there are other examples that are actually accurate, use those. Gravel Gravy posted:Do you not feel that a lack of remorse is an issue when it comes to Manson's parole hearings? Yeah, I do. It would be even if we didn't have a parole system that leaned too heavily on the theatrics, as I said. I think maybe you think i'm saying something that I'm not. I'm saying that, ideally, remorse should only be considered in so far as it impacts recidivism, unless you're into the prison-as-punishment thing. If you are, then we just fundamentally disagree. Manson doesn't have remorse and is very likely to reoffend because of that lack of remorse.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:24
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Obdicut posted:
How exactly does your concept of "rehabilitation" work if the subject is in no way rehabilitated from the state that they committed the crimes to begin with? If no rehabilitation is present, then that is what a parole board is for.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:26
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Gravel Gravy posted:How exactly does your concept of "rehabilitation" work if the subject is in no way rehabilitated from the state that they committed the crimes to begin with? No, again, if someone isn't rehabilitated but doesn't have any capacity to commit that crime anymore, then whether or not they feel bad about it is completely immaterial. Do you think Pollard is likely to go out and commit espionage again after being released?
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Jul 30, 2015 17:27
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But "recidivism" here is only a matter because there is literally no chance that Pollard will be able to commit the same acts he did before because there is no way he would be let near a Hot Pocket wrapper from the CIA cafeteria.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:28
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Obdicut posted:No, again, if someone isn't rehabilitated but doesn't have any capacity to commit that crime anymore, then whether or not they feel bad about it is completely immaterial. You're confusing treason with a common crime. If recidivism were a factor for all espionage cases no one would serve any time.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:32
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Gravel Gravy posted:But "recidivism" here is only a matter because there is literally no chance that Pollard will be able to commit the same acts he did before because there is no way he would be let near a Hot Pocket wrapper from the CIA cafeteria. And because he definitely doesn't have any relevant secrets anymore, or documents he stashed away, that would mean anything. What is the argument for keeping him locked up, due to lack of remorse? Why should that mean he stays in prison? Again, if this is just a moral thing for you--that if he's not sorry for what he did he should be punished for it--then we have a fundamental disagreement. Gravel Gravy posted:You're confusing treason with a common crime. No, because anyone who committed espionage might have secrets they haven't yet revealed, for one thing. And recidivism isn't the only factor--deterrence is overblown, but it is also a real thing. 30 years is a hell of a lot of deterrence.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:33
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Obdicut posted:And because he definitely doesn't have any relevant secrets anymore, or documents he stashed away, that would mean anything. I'm not saying he should remain. If there were any reason to it would have been mentioned by now since the year of his parole was known long ago.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:35
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Obdicut posted:And because he definitely doesn't have any relevant secrets anymore, or documents he stashed away, that would mean anything. Obdicut posted:No, because anyone who committed espionage might have secrets they haven't yet revealed, for one thing. 
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Jul 30, 2015 17:36
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Gravel Gravy posted:I'm not saying he should remain. If there were any reason to it would have been mentioned by now since the year of his parole was known long ago. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you've been arguing, then. What is confusing you about that?
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Jul 30, 2015 17:36
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botany posted:Deterrence is a lovely basis for imprisonment, not just because it doesn't work but also because it's unfair toward individuals to punish them not for what they have done but to make a statement. You're basically saying that Pollard deserves to remain locked up because freeing him would look politically inconvenient. That's not justice. I don't get this notion that the knowledge of punishment doesn't deter inappropriate behavior. Take workplace safety videos for instance. 'This is the right way to lockout/tag out. If you violate lockout/tag out procedures, this could happen to you' [violent death is shown]' The vast majority of workers will see that consequence and it will indirectly punish dangerous behaviors related to violating lock out/tag out. Some workers just don't care and will habitually violate the poo poo out of safety policies but that doesn't mean the safety videos don't provide deterrent effect. The criminal justice system has a lot of people who either (a) live such lovely lives outside of prison that prison couldn't be sufficiently aversive to punish behavior or (b) are literally mentally ill, impulsive, and will act without regards to non-immediate consequences. I suspect this results in statistics which show that the penal system is generally ineffective. I'm asked to rehabilitate people who are mentally ill and impulsive and a lot of that would be difficult to do without being able to point to examples of positive behavior/positive consequences versus examples of negative behaviors/negative consequences.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:39
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Obdicut posted:I'm sorry, I don't understand what you've been arguing, then. I've just been going along with My Imaginary Barney the Dinosaurs gimmick, you seemed to have jumped in on a tangent. Obdicut posted:What is confusing you about that? I suppose how the statements contradict each other.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:40
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While he may not be able to specifically commit espionage I would argue that if he does not grasp that what he did was wrong, he will probably try to commit other antisocial acts in the future, and thus probably shouldn't be inflicted on the general population.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:42
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I'm really surprised, I thought most D&Ders were against the death penalty.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:42
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Gravel Gravy posted:I've just been going along with My Imaginary Barney the Dinosaurs gimmick, you seemed to have jumped in on a tangent. No clue what this means but it sounds very internet. quote:I suppose how the statements contradict each other. They don't, though. If it were argued that Pollard still knew secrets that were unrevealed, then that'd be a reason to lock him up longer. You said by my recidivism reasoning, nobody would ever get locked up for espionage. But someone who just committed espionage obviously might have more unrevealed secrets. After 30 years, Pollard doesn't--or at least, nobody at all is arguing that he does. OwlFancier posted:While he may not be able to specifically commit espionage I would argue that if he does not grasp that what he did was wrong, he will probably try to commit other antisocial acts in the future, and thus probably shouldn't be inflicted on the general population. This reasoning could be used to lock up a veritable shitload of people forever. It sucks.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:43
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I'm really surprised, I thought most D&Ders were against the death penalty. I'm against the death penalty and prison for a great many crimes but that is because they are demonstrably unhelpful in dealing with them, and serve only to mask the social causes of the crimes and increase the amount of suffering those social problems cause, not only to the victims but also the perpetrators. However I have no particular objection to just killing people who are sufficiently aberrant as to attack wider society without any justifiable reason.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:45
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Obdicut posted:This reasoning could be used to lock up a veritable shitload of people forever. It sucks. If you need to use it to lock up a shitload of people that is evidence that you need a better solution. If prison is failing to rehabilitate massive numbers of people who are driven to crime because of their situation, that shows prison does not remove their need to commit crime, because it doesn't put them in a situation where not committing crime is a practical way of life. However when the crime was committed by someone who had no need to commit it to begin with, and who did so purely out of greed, malice, or insanity, what other recourse do you have? I don't see anything wrong with the idea that some few people are simply beyond any reasonable ability we have to rehabilitate but equally are demonstrably antisocial enough to be unfit for reintroduction into society. At some point the cost-benefit analysis will produce a few people where the difficulty of rehabilitating them is not worth the benefit. There is an important difference between people who commit crime as a result of their environment and people who are under no pressure whatsoever to commit crime and choose to do it to gain even more personal power and wealth. You can't practically lock up a shitload of people forever, but you can practically lock up this particular rear end in a top hat forever. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 17:49
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Obdicut posted:No clue what this means but it sounds very internet. There is very little room for wishy-washiness in national security or criminal justice.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:53
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OwlFancier posted:
How you determine that 'someone had no need to commit it' part is the tricky bit. But all you said was "he will probably try to commit other antisocial acts in the future, and thus probably shouldn't be inflicted on the general population" which would justify locking up a ton of people, and even justify pre-emptively locking up a ton of people. quote:If you need to use it to lock up a shitload of people that is evidence that you need a better solution. If prison is failing to rehabilitate massive numbers of people who are driven to crime because of their situation, that shows prison does not remove their need to commit crime, because it doesn't put them in a situation where not committing crime is a practical way of life. And that's the situation we have. Gravel Gravy posted:There is very little room for wishy-washiness in national security or criminal justice. That's cool dude. Not sure what wishy-washiness you're seeing, but whatevs.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:55
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Obdicut posted:How you determine that 'someone had no need to commit it' part is the tricky bit. But all you said was "he will probably try to commit other antisocial acts in the future, and thus probably shouldn't be inflicted on the general population" which would justify locking up a ton of people, and even justify pre-emptively locking up a ton of people. Quit mixing up general criminal justice with espionage and treason, it's tiresome.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:56
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Gravel Gravy posted:Quit mixing up general criminal justice with espionage and treason, it's tiresome. We're talking about the criminal sentencing and paroling of Pollard for the crime of of espionage, which was conducted through the general criminal justice system.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:59
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I'm really surprised, I thought most D&Ders were against the death penalty. We're talking about a Jewish person from Israel though
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Jul 30, 2015 18:00
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OwlFancier posted:I'm against the death penalty and prison for a great many crimes but that is because they are demonstrably unhelpful in dealing with them, and serve only to mask the social causes of the crimes and increase the amount of suffering those social problems cause, not only to the victims but also the perpetrators. You do you realize that it's entirely possible he doesn't show remorse because the prison system in the US isn't really built around getting people to feel remorse, right? And if you just kill them there'd be no way to know if they would ever feel sorry for what they did, not to mention there's no taking it back if it turns out they were innocent (not saying there's a chance of Pollard being innocent, but in general).
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Jul 30, 2015 18:00
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If Espionage is a sort of act of war, then in the past 30 years the political landscape has changed to the point that the war is essentially over. If he was a POW we would have let him out by now.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:01
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Obdicut posted:We're talking about the criminal sentencing and paroling of Pollard for the crime of of espionage, which was conducted through the general criminal justice system. You're trying to draw a connection between a person robbing a convenience store multiple times to treason.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:03
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Mandy Thompson posted:If Espionage is a sort of act of war, then in the past 30 years the political landscape has changed to the point that the war is essentially over. If he was a POW we would have let him out by now. PoW suggests he was a prisoner for acts against another country, not his own. Also welcome back.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:04
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Mandy Thompson posted:We're talking about a Jewish person from Israel though  You're an idiot.Mandy Thompson posted:If Espionage is a sort of act of war, then in the past 30 years the political landscape has changed to the point that the war is essentially over. If he was a POW we would have let him out by now. Its a war that never ends, so he'd be a permanent POW. Good comparison skills there.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:05
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Zanzibar Ham posted:You do you realize that it's entirely possible he doesn't show remorse because the prison system in the US isn't really built around getting people to feel remorse, right? And if you just kill them there'd be no way to know if they would ever feel sorry for what they did, not to mention there's no taking it back if it turns out they were innocent (not saying there's a chance of Pollard being innocent, but in general). And in general that is part of why I oppose the death penalty. But to my knowledge his case has been proven to an exceptional degree of surety. I also don't think, given who he is and what is crime was, that there is much chance of changing his mind even with a more reform-based prison system, which on the whole would be an excellent idea. He was an affluent and educated man who decided he wasn't wealthy enough and/or that he didn't have an obligation to society, and thus it was OK to attempt to destabilise and damage that society for personal gain. I would suggest the word "sociopath" may be accurately applied here. Whether he feels sorry is irrelevant, other than as a function of preventing him from causing further damage and extracting some constructive use from him. As he seems disinclined to work to repay his debt (which he hasn't paid simply by being in prison, he has accumulated more debt because he is costing society money by being in prison) and apparently sees nothing wrong with his actions to begin with, I would suggest that it is, at this point, entirely prudent to either not release him, or just kill him if that would be cheaper and spend the money you would have spent keeping him locked up forever on something more useful like social projects.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:11
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platzapS posted:Twenty-nine years is long enough prison for pretty much any crime. Good for Pollard. Plus it seems like we traded him for peace with Iran and not-war in the middle east. Seems like an good call.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:17
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NOT from Israel, that's an important detail.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:18
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tsa posted:Like seriously there's no shortage of examples I can pull from, we give long sentences to execs all the loving time. The reason nothing happened with a lot of wall street execs have to do with specifics and lack of evidence. That case is from 2005. We basically stopped prosecuting in 2008. From reading Taibbi, I blame Holder and regulatory capture.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Plus it seems like we traded him for peace with Iran and not-war in the middle east. Seems like an good call. On the face of it, yes. Netanyahu and a couple others have already said he had nothing to do with the deal and its all coincidental. Which is just fine for us.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:19
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