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OwlFancier posted:And in general that is part of why I oppose the death penalty. But to my knowledge his case has been proven to an exceptional degree of surety. How do you define what's an 'exceptional degree of surety' (again, in general, not in Pollard's case)? How are you so sure a more rehabilitative system wouldn't have gotten Pollard to feel sorry? While I can accept keeping a person jailed until he shows that he's remorseful (which could be forever if he never rehabilitates depending on the severity of the crime), just killing them opens the gate to innocents getting wrongfully executed. And IIRC executing someone costs more than life in prison.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:20
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The only time that man should have been allowed out of that cell is right before we loaded him into a cannon and shot him into the sun.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Plus it seems like we traded him for peace with Iran and not-war in the middle east. Seems like an good call. If that were so then that would be a good reason to hang onto him until now and also to release him. If he won't serve society of his own free will he can at least serve as currency. Zanzibar Ham posted:How do you define what's an 'exceptional degree of surety' (again, in general, not in Pollard's case)? How are you so sure a more rehabilitative system wouldn't have gotten Pollard to feel sorry? While I can accept keeping a person jailed until he shows that he's remorseful (which could be forever if he never rehabilitates depending on the severity of the crime), just killing them opens the gate to innocents getting wrongfully executed. And IIRC executing someone costs more than life in prison. Execution being very expensive is another good argument against the death penalty as it stands and I agree with it. I was more talking hypothetically. Frankly in general I would probably suggest not having a general legal basis for it. As you say it's something rather open to abuse, possibly something like a customary presidential order or something which has to be publicised so that people know when it happens and to discourage its frequent use. Conceivably if you're dealing with very small numbers of people you may be better off foregoing the death penalty and just accepting that some few assholes are going to spend their entire lives sponging off society. Mostly it just seems irritatingly inefficient, but it may possibly be less so than accepting the loss. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 18:21
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Again, there is no reason to assume that this has anything to do with the Iran deal, unless some of you think Obama somehow synchronized the nuclear negotiations so that their resolution would coincide with Pollard's 30-year mark, when he would have been up for parole, anyway. I mean, if you have evidence that suggests that this is more than a coincidence, go ahead, otherwise this is sounding a lot like a conspiracy theory to me. I'll repost this in case any of you missed it: Absurd Alhazred posted:The timing seems to be entirely coincidental:
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Jul 30, 2015 18:28
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Many of you think I am okay with what he did, I am not. But I feel that 30 years is long enough for just about anyone short of true monsters like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson. Even Anders Brevik gets a parole hearing after 11 years and he killed 80 something people. That was in another country of course but I think it is a model that we should follow here.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:38
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Mandy Thompson posted:Many of you think I am okay with what he did, I am not. But I feel that 30 years is long enough for just about anyone short of true monsters like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson. Even Anders Brevik gets a parole hearing after 11 years and he killed 80 something people. That was in another country of course but I think it is a model that we should follow here. You'd best consult with your buddy god first. That guy was pretty cool with capital punishment.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:40
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Gravel Gravy posted:You're trying to draw a connection between a person robbing a convenience store multiple times to treason. He wasn't convicted of treason. Edit: Also treason has a minimum sentence of only 5 years.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:42
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Mandy Thompson posted:Many of you think I am okay with what he did, I am not. But I feel that 30 years is long enough for just about anyone short of true monsters like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson. Even Anders Brevik gets a parole hearing after 11 years and he killed 80 something people. That was in another country of course but I think it is a model that we should follow here. And Breivik will, barring something borderline miraculous occurring, be returned to prison after each of his hearings because he is as close to a monster as we've seen lately. The hearings he is entitled to will, in all likelihood, be pro forma affairs wherein everyone conclude that, yes, he's still a remorseless bastard who should never see the light of day again. And yes, before you say it, Pollard isn't a literal mass murderer (or from Israel despite what you ham-handedly tried to imply), but his crime is still staggeringly repellant. Also it's 21 years 'till his first hearing, not 11
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Jul 30, 2015 18:53
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ah, sorry, 21 years.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:55
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Mandy Thompson posted:Many of you think I am okay with what he did, I am not. But I feel that 30 years is long enough for just about anyone short of true monsters like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson. Even Anders Brevik gets a parole hearing after 11 years and he killed 80 something people. That was in another country of course but I think it is a model that we should follow here. I'd consider someone who sells state secrets for their own profit to be a true monster honestly
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Jul 30, 2015 19:18
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Counterpoint: Affordably priced Jonathan Pollard
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Jul 30, 2015 19:30
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CommieGIR posted:
The problem with your logic here is that Pollard won't ever be in a situation where he even has the opportunity to sell state secrets again. It's only really equivalent to a situation where you have a 100% guarantee that a murderer won't kill again, etc.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:49
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Does the aspect of general detterence come into American parole decisions? Because then I'd argue that it is important to keep people like Pollard and Snowden locked up in order to deter future information leaks.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:52
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Randler posted:Does the aspect of general detterence come into American parole decisions? Because then I'd argue that it is important to keep people like Pollard and Snowden locked up in order to deter future information leaks. You'll find that skin color is the most important factor in the American prison system . 
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Jul 30, 2015 20:48
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Darkman Fanpage posted:To be fair the information Ames and Hanssen provided the Soviet Union/Russia compromised a lot of CIA agents working in the field. If I remember correctly Pollard's intel didn't compromise any operations or operatives.
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Jul 30, 2015 23:33
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There is a reason they call it the justice system and have a blind lady with scales outside the courthouse and not the national security system with a statue of Jay Edgar Hoover wiretapping a hippie outside the courthouse.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:44
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The justice system should entirely concern itself with determining the mass of various materials. This is literally what that statue is telling us to do.
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Jul 31, 2015 05:32
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Davethulhu posted:Counterpoint: Affordably priced Jonathan Pollard Filthy acts at a reasonable price.
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Jul 31, 2015 11:20
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I hope he gets released as soon as possible, and I also hope that he wanders out of the prison gates into the path of an 18 wheeler.
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Jul 31, 2015 14:23
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CSPAN Caller posted:The justice system should entirely concern itself with determining the mass of various materials. This is literally what that statue is telling us to do. Funny you should mention that, the reason that scales are a symbol of justice is that screwing around with measurements the actual masses of various objects historically was a way for unscrupulous people to gently caress people over. https://youtu.be/x2vGUUnxJr8?t=5m10s The creation of a unit of weights was critical to the creation of trade, and by extension civil society and then by extension, justice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2vGUUnxJr8 time 9:00 ozmunkeh posted:I hope he gets released as soon as possible, and I also hope that he wanders out of the prison gates into the path of an 18 wheeler. fair enough Mandy Thompson fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 14:52
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Oh my JIDF is in full force today. Pollard should remain in prison for the rest of his life. We should not tolerate acts of espionage and treason because to do so invites more opportunity for thise acts to occur. Also we should cut all ties with the terrorist state of Isreal too imo. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 31, 2015 18:07
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I'm sure people are ecstatic that if they're caught spying they'll only get 30 years + parole. I know I'm moving to the US to commit treason over there right now.
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Jul 31, 2015 18:14
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Zanzibar Ham posted:How do you define what's an 'exceptional degree of surety' (again, in general, not in Pollard's case)? How are you so sure a more rehabilitative system wouldn't have gotten Pollard to feel sorry? While I can accept keeping a person jailed until he shows that he's remorseful (which could be forever if he never rehabilitates depending on the severity of the crime), just killing them opens the gate to innocents getting wrongfully executed. And IIRC executing someone costs more than life in prison. This is called a line drawing fallacy, there are most certainly cases where the actions are not in question at all (Colorado theater shooting). Financial cost is a terrible way to go about the argument in general, I'm not sure why it's such a popular one.
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Jul 31, 2015 19:18
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tsa posted:This is called a line drawing fallacy, there are most certainly cases where the actions are not in question at all (Colorado theater shooting). Financial cost is a terrible way to go about the argument in general, I'm not sure why it's such a popular one. How is this a fallacy? How do you define it in such a way so it won't be abused?
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Jul 31, 2015 19:23
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His Purple Majesty posted:Oh my JIDF is in full force today. Pollard should remain in prison for the rest of his life. We should not tolerate acts of espionage and treason because to do so invites more opportunity for thise acts to occur. Also we should cut all ties with the terrorist state of Isreal too imo. I'm not the JIDF, I am actually quite hostile to Israel. I am also hostile to the prison system
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Jul 31, 2015 19:35
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I'm really surprised, I thought most D&Ders were against the death penalty. Until it's Che Guevara ordering the executions, or Israel is involved.
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Jul 31, 2015 20:24
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I don't think Israel spying in the abstract is particularly heinous. America spies on it's allies and has been spied on by other allies before. It's a natural product of building up these institutions of paranoid data collectors who are trained and funded to break the rules. Big deal. The issue is more that Israel then potentially sold intel to a US enemy and, when caught, tried to play the spy as a martyr. They enabled a dangerous idiot when they should have just turned him over. When you gently caress over a major ally, you should apologize. Instead, Likud and the other nutjobs tried to continue the dumb charade where America is both Israel's greatest friend and also a hotbed of anti-semitism just itching to persecute it's most successful minority. Does anyone know if the Australians who Pollard approached ever tried to turn him in? How do you turn a spy trying to sell you stuff down, but not go back and rat him out? I don't think I've ever heard much on that angle of the story.
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Jul 31, 2015 21:43
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There's really no problem with him getting out after 30 years. The only problem is that once he is out he'll be able to profit from his crime thanks to his status as a "hero."
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Jul 31, 2015 21:55
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Last Buffalo posted:I don't think Israel spying in the abstract is particularly heinous. America spies on it's allies and has been spied on by other allies before. It's a natural product of building up these institutions of paranoid data collectors who are trained and funded to break the rules. Big deal. I expect that all of our allies spy on us, and vice-versa. US citizens that aid foreign states in spying on the US are traitors though. I can see an argument for mitigating the punishment if spying on behalf of an ally, but not against punishment altogether.
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Jul 31, 2015 21:58
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OwlFancier posted:I'm against the death penalty and prison for a great many crimes but that is because they are demonstrably unhelpful in dealing with them, and serve only to mask the social causes of the crimes and increase the amount of suffering those social problems cause, not only to the victims but also the perpetrators. So it basically comes down to I support the death penalty for people whom I think deserves the death penalty.
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Jul 31, 2015 21:58
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Israel spying is henioues because it's a state run by literal fascists that get elected to office on the platform of keeping the untermensch suppressed. Israel has been loving the U.S. over constantly for years and I fail to see how letting Pollard go does anything but continue the trend of ignoring Israel loving us over. Who cares if they get upset about the Iranian deal? What are they going to do? Invade the U.S.? Contray to what people might think there is extremely little love for Israel in the executive branch and even the Jewish community in American thinks Nutty Yahoo is a piece of poo poo.
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Jul 31, 2015 21:59
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Typo posted:So it basically comes down to I support the death penalty for people whom I think deserves the death penalty. I oppose the death penalty in all cases when it is counterproductive, which is the vast majority of them. I have no inherent objection to the death penalty. Deserve or not is rather irrelevant, what matters is whether particular responses to crime are useful in maintaining an orderly society within a reasonable degree of expense.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:02
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OwlFancier posted:I oppose the death penalty in all cases when it is counterproductive, which is the vast majority of them. I have no inherent objection to the death penalty. Deserve or not is rather irrelevant, what matters is whether particular responses to crime are useful in maintaining an orderly society within a reasonable degree of expense. So you are pro-death penalty. I mean, it's not an inherently indefensible position, but let's just be clear about this.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:16
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Typo posted:So you are pro-death penalty. Life is more nuanced than binary positions. The idea you have to be labeled as pro or against when it comes to everything is toxic as hell.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:18
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Venom Snake posted:Life is more nuanced than binary positions. The idea you have to be labeled as pro or against when it comes to everything is toxic as hell. But that's what being pro/anti-death penalty and all its implication means though. People who are for the death penalty tend not to support it in all cases. People who are anti-death penalty thinks it should never be applied. It's really not anyone else's fault if you are uncomfortable with your own political opinions.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:20
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Typo posted:But that's what being pro/anti-death penalty and all its implication means though. A person who is for a thing but understands it's limits or a person who is against a thing but understands when it might be nessecary is a much better way of going about thinking of people rather than using lazy short word labels. It's dumbing down of political discourse and reducing everything to black and white helps nobody. The death penalty is bad, but is can be a necessary evil when it comes to removing awful extremely dangerous people like Pollard. Pollard did what he did 100% for money and he didn't give a single poo poo what happened to anyone who might get hurt by it.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:26
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Venom Snake posted:A person who is for a thing but understands it's limits or a person who is against a thing but understands when it might be nessecary is a much better way of going about thinking of people rather than using lazy short word labels. It's dumbing down of political discourse and reducing everything to black and white helps nobody. Would you apply the same discourse to: Rapists Child murders Edward Snowden Bradley/whateverthehellhisorhernameisnow mannings quote:The death penalty is bad, but is can be a necessary evil when it comes to removing awful extremely dangerous people like Pollard. This sort stuff stinks of trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want to proclaim yourself to be humane but also wants the state to kill people in prison whom you don't like.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:29
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Venom Snake posted:A person who is for a thing but understands it's limits or a person who is against a thing but understands when it might be nessecary is a much better way of going about thinking of people rather than using lazy short word labels. It's dumbing down of political discourse and reducing everything to black and white helps nobody. So the next time Germany or Brazil finds someone spying on them for us, you'd be cool if they just killed that person?
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Jul 31, 2015 22:31
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Venom Snake posted:A person who is for a thing but understands it's limits or a person who is against a thing but understands when it might be nessecary is a much better way of going about thinking of people rather than using lazy short word labels. It's dumbing down of political discourse and reducing everything to black and white helps nobody. It's sometimes useful to have a binary distinction. Pro and anti-death penalty are that way. There are some people who trust the state to use the death penalty wisely and well, and others who think that it's corruptive and that if you sanction it, you'll always have abuses of it. I'm definitely in the latter camp. If for some reason you think 'pro' and 'anti' are horrible words here for some bizarre reason, okay, but one group thinks the death penalty is ok to use sometimes and the other group thinks it categorically isn't. Also, there are shitloads of criminals who did things entirely for the money without giving a single poo poo about anyone who might get hurt. If that's your standard for the death penalty you'll execute a ton of people.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:32
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Typo posted:So you are pro-death penalty. No, I am situationally for and against the death penalty. If "pro death penalty" is accurate because I sometimes don't take issue with it then so is "anti death penalty" because I sometimes oppose it. Neither one is a very good descriptor of the position.
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Jul 31, 2015 22:37
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