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Zanzibar Ham posted:I'm really surprised, I thought most D&Ders were against the death penalty. Until it's Che Guevara ordering the executions, or Israel is involved.
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Jul 31, 2015 20:24
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Last Buffalo posted:I don't think Israel spying in the abstract is particularly heinous. America spies on it's allies and has been spied on by other allies before. It's a natural product of building up these institutions of paranoid data collectors who are trained and funded to break the rules. Big deal. I expect that all of our allies spy on us, and vice-versa. US citizens that aid foreign states in spying on the US are traitors though. I can see an argument for mitigating the punishment if spying on behalf of an ally, but not against punishment altogether.
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Jul 31, 2015 21:58
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Just imagine that Pollard gave away state secrets to Cuba out of personal conviction, and received no pecuniary gain. Then he's a hero. Treason is a very serious crime, obviously. It's defined in 18 U.S. Code § 2381 as "Whoever, [1]owing allegiance to the United States, [2]levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, [3]giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." [I parsed it by adding numbers for each element.] Pollard doesn't meet [2], as Israel was not an enemy at the time of Pollard's offenses. He pled guilty to a lesser crime, as part of a plea agreement. Personally, I think he deserved severe punishment for selling out his country, and that Israel should be told to get hosed with regards to any pressure it exerts for lenient treatment. To know he spent ages 32-61 in federal prison satisfies my bloodlust. He's a broken man who poses no threat to national security. Let him shuffle off to Israel to die, forgotten.
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Aug 1, 2015 16:54
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Jack of Hearts posted:This is where I stand. He's lost half of his life to federal prison. The only irritating thing is that he'll spend the rest of his life being fellated by Israeli chauvinists. Why is that irritating? Why do you care what happens to a convict after release from prison, so long as he's not continuing to commit crimes? I don't think Pollard would choose elderly exile and a few moments in the spotlight of the Israeli right over thirty years of the prime of his life.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:29
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Jack of Hearts posted:Why shouldn't I be (slightly) irritated by the knowledge that he'll profit off of his crimes for the remainder of his life? Imagine a balance sheet, with incarceration from ages 32-61 on one side, a few minutes of exile in the spotlight followed by obscure exile on the other. How's it look? Sellouts who betray their home country don't make lasting heroes anywhere.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:41
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Abner Cadaver II posted:You're really underestimating how much the Israeli right-wing likes this guy. You're probably overestimating how long they'll remember him if he makes it to Israel after release.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:56
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From the Time (really, Time?) link above: It would probably be an exaggeration to say that Pollard will receive a hero’s welcome if and when he arrives in Israel, as the spy scandal is viewed by the Israeli public as an embarrassment caused by senior intelligence officers who recruited Pollard to steal top secret American material. But many Israelis believe that Pollard’s sentence was unduly harsh, and they note that no other American was ever given a life sentence for passing classified information to a US ally.
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Aug 1, 2015 18:05
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Zanzibar Ham posted:But you will commit treason since you'll "only" end up in prison for 30 years? That's a bit more than I've been alive. "Treason" has an element that wasn't present in Pollard's case. Treason involves aiding the enemies of one's country with detrimental intent toward one's country. No one has demonstrated that Pollard wished to injure the US - just that he wanted or needed money.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:20
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Abner Cadaver II posted:So it's not treason because he was just indifferent to the well-being of the US? It's not treason because words have definitions, and Pollard's actions do not match the definition of "treason."
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Aug 3, 2015 16:26
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| # ¿ May 16, 2024 16:48 |
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Abner Cadaver II posted:levies war against them or adheres to their enemies I don't know how to make this simpler for you. Interpretive finger paints, perhaps?
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Aug 3, 2015 16:33
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