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He's been in jail, has been a model prisoner, letting him out on parole seems fair to me and I hate Israel's guts.Gravel Gravy posted:Are you forgetting his contacts with South Africa and Pakistan? Ideology isn't a big factor here, he just really liked money. And what he did was wrong but he didn't do it yesterday. We should be ready to forgive people. He's done his penance. It would be the Christian thing to do.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:08
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OwlFancier posted:Forgiveness is only good when it's productive. In the case of people who are absolutely antisocial and are not driven to it by any sort of desperation or need, but simply greed, and whose existence causes political difficulties and serves as a rallying point for deranged nationalists, it is entirely reasonable to simply kill them. The first part applies to ordinary common violent criminals and drug dealers but I think most people here would say that an armed robber or drug dealer should have an opportunity for parole if they have done their time, been a model prisoner, and participated in programs to rehabilitate themselves. The second part suggests that you're not willing to extend him the same courtesy because of politics. Yes Israel is terrible and nationalists are assholes but we have to look at the person first. Otherwise we are just being stubborn and contrary to nationalists like Republicans are to Obama. We should be consistent instead of changing our views to be contrary to someone we don't like. Justice is supposed to be blind to politics.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:33
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CommieGIR posted:Considering he is pretty insistent that he did this to 'support Israel', even going so far as to attempt to renounce his US Citizenship, and despite him attempting to open weapons and intel sales with Iran, South Africa, and Pakistan which flies in the face of his claims about his dedication to Israel, I think its safe to say he has in no way been rehabilitated. And that is something to be take into consideration with the totality of what he has done in prison, by a blind, impartial, and objective parole board and court system rather than wrathful mobs based on whether they like Israel or not.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:39
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Gravel Gravy posted:He sold out the security of at least 300 million people by selling as much information as he could to whoever would take it for material gain. Stop being willfully dense. 30 years ago. We should be willing to forgive people.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:40
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Gravel Gravy posted:Why? How would this serve national interests? Justice isn't meant to serve national interests. Justice is blind. National interests aren't justice.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:43
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CommieGIR posted:Spies tend to ignore justice for personal gain or other nation's interests. As do any other common thieves, but we are willing to parole thieves.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:45
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CommieGIR posted:Spies tend to ignore justice for personal gain or other nation's interests. Do we know for a fact that someone was directly harmed? Even then, I still think 30 years is long enough. Prison should be for reform and deterrence and incapacitatation, not for revenge. What difference does it make in deterrence between 30 years and life? Future spies know they are in deep poo poo either way. Records show he has been well behaved. And it is extremely unlikely that he will commit a crime again.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:49
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Gravel Gravy posted:So? There is only one abstract concept that has any relevance here. My loyalty is first to God, then to justice, and to the "national interests" of the international proletariat. quote:In that sense should Jeffrey Dahmer be parolled since he only thieved other peoples' torsos? Well first of all Jeffrey Dahmer is dead so that is a moot point. But even if he was still alive, he was not a model prisoner at all, showed no evidence of trying to change, and would be very likely to commit another crime if he was released. CommieGIR posted:What about murderers? Since its very likely some of the assets he stole might have gotten people killed. We sometimes parole murderers, depending on the curcumstances.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:52
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CommieGIR posted:
Yet many of you still seem to be calling for the release of Chelsea Manning (I agree) and it doesn't seem as though she has shown remorse. Also the parole board seems to believe releasing him is consistent with their procedures.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:56
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Neither is Jonathan Pollard. He's shown zero remorse for the actions he took. So, what is your point?
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CommieGIR posted:True, the main problem being that Manning and Snowden was just releasing for general release, they didn't (as far as we know) seek to sell such assets or, even worse, arrange weapons sales with foreign nations like Pollard. Then consider the wall street banks that are the wealthiest among us who completely collapsed the economy. We give them very short sentences or fines even if what they do is often as destructive as any spy.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:10
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Gravel Gravy posted:Do you not feel that a lack of remorse is an issue when it comes to Manson's parole hearings? Sure, it isn't just his lack or remorse though, he continues to be violent, dysfunctional, disassociated from reality, and has repeatedly vowed to kill again when they let him out.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:19
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I'm really surprised, I thought most D&Ders were against the death penalty. We're talking about a Jewish person from Israel though
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Jul 30, 2015 18:00
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If Espionage is a sort of act of war, then in the past 30 years the political landscape has changed to the point that the war is essentially over. If he was a POW we would have let him out by now.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:01
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Many of you think I am okay with what he did, I am not. But I feel that 30 years is long enough for just about anyone short of true monsters like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson. Even Anders Brevik gets a parole hearing after 11 years and he killed 80 something people. That was in another country of course but I think it is a model that we should follow here.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:38
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ah, sorry, 21 years.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:55
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There is a reason they call it the justice system and have a blind lady with scales outside the courthouse and not the national security system with a statue of Jay Edgar Hoover wiretapping a hippie outside the courthouse.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:44
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CSPAN Caller posted:The justice system should entirely concern itself with determining the mass of various materials. This is literally what that statue is telling us to do. Funny you should mention that, the reason that scales are a symbol of justice is that screwing around with measurements the actual masses of various objects historically was a way for unscrupulous people to gently caress people over. https://youtu.be/x2vGUUnxJr8?t=5m10s The creation of a unit of weights was critical to the creation of trade, and by extension civil society and then by extension, justice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2vGUUnxJr8 time 9:00 ozmunkeh posted:I hope he gets released as soon as possible, and I also hope that he wanders out of the prison gates into the path of an 18 wheeler. fair enough Mandy Thompson fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 14:52
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His Purple Majesty posted:Oh my JIDF is in full force today. Pollard should remain in prison for the rest of his life. We should not tolerate acts of espionage and treason because to do so invites more opportunity for thise acts to occur. Also we should cut all ties with the terrorist state of Isreal too imo. I'm not the JIDF, I am actually quite hostile to Israel. I am also hostile to the prison system
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Jul 31, 2015 19:35
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