APA complicit in torture, voices within org complain of witchhunt

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > APA complicit in torture, voices within org complain of witchhunt

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/02/psychological-association-anti-torture-reforms

quote:

Opposition is building to intended anti-torture reforms within the largest professional organization of psychologists in the US, which faces a crossroads over what a recent report described as its past support for brutal military and CIA interrogations.

Before the American Psychological Association (APA) meets in Toronto next Thursday for what all expect will be a fraught convention that reckons with an independent review that last month found the APA complicit in torture, former military voices within the profession are urging the organization not to participate in what they describe as a witch hunt.

Reformers consider the pushback to represent entrenched opposition to cleaving the APA from a decade�s worth of professional cooperation with controversial detentions and interrogations. The APA listserv has become a key debating forum, with tempers rising on both sides.

A recent letter from the president of the APA�s military-focused wing warns that proposed ethics changes, likely to be discussed in Toronto, represent pandering to a �politically motivated, anti-government and anti-military stance�. A retired army colonel called David Hoffman, a former federal prosecutor whose scathing inquiry described APA �collusion� with US torture, an �executioner�.

Tom Williams, who helms the APA�s Division 19, called the Society for Military Psychology, wrote this week to APA officials that he was �deeply saddened and very concerned by what too often appears a politically motivated, anti-government and anti-military stance that does not advance the mission of APA as much as it seems to appease the most vocal critics of APA and Division 19�.

A retired army veteran currently on the US Army War College faculty, Williams blasted �misrepresentations of the PENS [Presidential Task Force on Psychological Ethics and National Security] report that serve an effort to advance an unspoken political agenda�, referring to a critical 2005 APA task force that Hoffman found was stacked with psychologists tied to the Department of Defense.

Reiterating a position the APA took for 10 years before abandoning it after the Hoffman report, Williams said the PENS report �helped ensure torture would not occur�. Larry James, a PENS task-force member who also served as an army colonel and Guant�namo psychologist, wrote separately to colleagues that Hoffman�s findings of collusion to aid torture was an �intentional lie� and a �clear defamatory insult to our military�.

Rather than internal Pentagon reforms, it was congressional intervention, led by torture survivor John McCain and GOP presidential candidate Lindsey Graham, that reigned in US military interrogation. Both McCain and Graham are veterans. Their bill, the Detainee Treatment Act, was a response to Abu Ghraib and passed five months after the PENS report.

Once Williams posted his letter to the APA listserv, Jean Maria Arrigo, a member of the 2005 PENS taskforce, shot back: �To uphold the dignity of Division 19 operational psychologists following the Hoffman report, the burden falls upon Division 19 to censure the task force operational psychologists as APA committee members � I am speaking to you as a person with a vested interest in military honor, not as a detractor of military service.�

Another letter, from a retired army colonel and psychologist, said �executioner Hoffman� received �carte blanche [from the APA] to malign and to conduct a search and destroy mission�.

The former officer, Kathy Platoni, wrote in a dear-colleague letter that a wave of firings and resignations that have swept through the APA after the Hoffman report were unfounded.

�That the APA board of directors allowed this and now have martyred and fallen all over themselves to apologize for crimes against humanity among their own that never occurred and for which not a lick of evidence exists, is bizarre and preposterous. And now we have mass resignations among the APA elite senior leaders � and for what purpose? What do they and APA have to hide?�

After investigating claims that have dogged the APA for years, Hoffman concluded last month that APA officials, including the group�s ethics chief, colluded with the US military and to a lesser extent the CIA to soften its internal prohibitions on torture while insisting publicly that they had done no such thing. Hoffman concluded that for several responsible APA leaders, influence and the prospect of lucrative military contracts provided sufficient motivation.

Nadine Kaslow, one of the chairs of the APA committee liaising with Hoffman, told the Guardian earlier this month she supported ending psychologist support to US military and CIA interrogation and detention operations. Kaslow, a former APA president, was one of the recipients of Williams� letter.

In a joint response to the Guardian, Kaslow and co-recipient Susan McDaniels, the APA�s president-elect, said that they took Williams� concerns seriously. But they also signaled a new, post-Hoffman direction for the APA.

�We will review them with the council of representatives as they meet next week to consider the action steps already recommended by the board of directors and a variety of constituency groups, and put forth recommendations of their own,� they said.

�We understand and appreciate the need for a balanced approach that embraces many voices � including those of military psychologists � as the association develops new policies, processes and oversight mechanisms so that ethics and humans rights are clearly at the center of all our decision-making and the problems identified in the Hoffman report cannot recur in the future.�

Longtime critics of torture within the APA consider themselves to have momentum after the Hoffman report, but they also see structural impediments to their project of cleaving psychology from detentions and interrogations. The Pentagon has said it has no plans to recall psychologists from Guant�namo Bay, where they assess the mental health and behavior of detainees subject to forced feedings that detainees and even a Guant�namo nurse have called torture.

�It is unfortunate that a small faction of military psychology leadership is peddling the same discredited falsehoods that APA leaders peddled for the last decade, that APA�s actions were designed to protect human rights,� said Stephen Soldz of the Coalition for an Ethical Psychology.

�Since the Hoffman report deconstructed those claims, this faction is seeking to discredit that report and those who requested it. But these tactics won�t work this time.�

Williams did not return an email seeking comment. Platoni, who said she would not be able to attend the Toronto conference, said she hoped for a �middle ground� that involved civilian colleagues better understanding military responsibilities.

�When you�re in the military, if you�re ordered to fill a position in which detainee operations are involved, you have no say in the matter. You have to perform the duties for which you were trained,� said Platoni, a veteran of both US ground wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guant�namo Bay, where she did not interact with detainees.

�After 34 years in the military, I can tell you that almost every psychologist that I served with, whatever their role, was among the most valiant, highly regarded, ethical performers of the duties to which they were assigned.�

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/02/psychological-association-anti-torture-reforms

Anyone involved in torture, military or civilian, following orders or issuing them, should be charged with crimes against humanity. Nothing justifies torture and the APA should know better. What happened to the Hippocratic oath?

This makes me very concerned about going to any kind of therapy with APA members. How am I to know that I can trust a diagnosis or that upon going to therapy I won't be used as a subject in a CIA torture experiment. When making ethical decisions, please keep this in mind how disquieting having our trust abused is. Seeking help for a mental illness requires intense trust and your organization has violated the trust of the public and those with mental illnesses. And people within APA are still defending it. I am terrified of the APA now. You will probably say that I am being irrational and paranoid but that is the consequence of mental illness and the fragile trust being violated.

And they are seriously using the Nuremberg defense? That just goes to show that they can't be trusted to use the same defense used by the Nazis for the holocaust.

More about the report here

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/jul/13/psychologist-torture-doctors-collusion-jean-maria-arrigo
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/jul/10/us-torture-doctors-psychologists-apa-prosecution

# ? Aug 3, 2015 15:29

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# ? May 10, 2024 14:22

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

The Nuremberg defense is what everyone uses, it's just a bad thing when you're the loser and you try to use it

# ? Aug 4, 2015 02:22

Vivian Darkbloom: Jul 14, 2004

I was never an APA member but I have colleagues who are still members as far as I know. I think most practicing psychologists, clinicians and researchers both, see the APA's condoning of torture as appalling or at least grossly inappropriate. You can't cooperate with "enhanced interrogation" and still be somehow against abuse. From one of the earlier stories:

quote:

For more than a decade, the American Psychological Association (APA) has maintained that a strict code of ethics prohibits its more than 130,000 members to aid in the torture of detainees while simultaneously permitting involvement in military and intelligence interrogations. The group has rejected media reporting on psychologists� complicity in torture; suppressed internal dissent from anti-torture doctors; cleared members of wrongdoing; and portrayed itself as a consistent ally against abuse.

Now, a voluminous independent review conducted by a former assistant US attorney, David Hoffman, undermines the APA�s denials in full � and vindicates the dissenters.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 03:21

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Just rename their headquarters after Ewen Cameron or something. Acknowledge the collective guilt. People should know how the sausage is made.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 03:27

snorch: Jul 27, 2009

Maybe everyone should just leave and found their own organization without the bullshit.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 14:05

Volcott: Mar 30, 2010; People paying American dollars to let other people know they didn't agree with someone's position on something is the lifeblood of these forums.

It was enhanced interrogation, not torture.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 18:28

Jethro: Jun 1, 2000; I was raised on the dairy, Bitch!

It was torture, just not torture torture.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 18:29

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Jethro posted:

It was torture, just not torture torture.

We didn't torture them, we just made them believe they were being tortured :v:

_{...except when we did torture them}

# ? Aug 4, 2015 18:33

ZDar Fan: Oct 15, 2012

Shameful but not surprising

# ? Aug 4, 2015 18:48

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

The biggest disaster out of all of this is the absolute power struggle there will be for citation styles

# ? Aug 4, 2015 18:51

Volcott: Mar 30, 2010; People paying American dollars to let other people know they didn't agree with someone's position on something is the lifeblood of these forums.

It's not torture as long as the only scars are psychological.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 4, 2015 18:58

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Volcott posted:

It was enhanced interrogation, not torture.

A distinction without a difference

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:11

Volcott: Mar 30, 2010; People paying American dollars to let other people know they didn't agree with someone's position on something is the lifeblood of these forums.

Mandy Thompson posted:

A distinction without a difference

Yeah, no. Loud music isn't in the same category as having your fingernails torn off.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:36

Gin and Juche: Apr 3, 2008; The Highest Judge of Paradise
Shiki Eiki
YAMAXANADU

Volcott posted:

It's not torture as long as the only scars are psychological.

Beats using a bag of oranges.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:38

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Volcott posted:

Yeah, no. Loud music isn't in the same category as having your fingernails torn off.

When both cross the line into moral repugnance there is little merit in debating which is moreso

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:39

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

Volcott posted:

Yeah, no. Loud music isn't in the same category as having your fingernails torn off.

Luckily "loud music" doesn't come close to encompassing what they did.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:40

Volcott: Mar 30, 2010; People paying American dollars to let other people know they didn't agree with someone's position on something is the lifeblood of these forums.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

When both cross the line into moral repugnance there is little merit in debating which is moreso

The interrogation method that cripples you is objectively worse.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:41

Radbot: Aug 12, 2009; Can't post for 3 years!

Volcott posted:

The interrogation method that cripples you is objectively worse.

Which is worse, mental crippling or physical crippling? Objectively, I mean.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:43

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Volcott posted:

The interrogation method that cripples you is objectively worse.

So what? They are both unacceptable, worse is tedious.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:44

Volcott: Mar 30, 2010; People paying American dollars to let other people know they didn't agree with someone's position on something is the lifeblood of these forums.

Should we not use harsh language against detainees either? Wouldn't want to hurt their feelings or anything.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:46

Rush Limbo: Sep 5, 2005; its with a full house

Volcott posted:

The interrogation method that cripples you is objectively worse.

Being punched in the scrotum is objectively worse than being punched in the face, I wouldn't want either to happen to me, or would I desire either to be inflicted on other people.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:46

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Mel Mudkiper posted:

The biggest disaster out of all of this is the absolute power struggle there will be for citation styles

You could say APA citation styles are already torture.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:50

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Volcott posted:

Should we not use harsh language against detainees either? Wouldn't want to hurt their feelings or anything.

And so one is forced to wonder if you are astoundigly ignorant or tediously dishonest

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:50

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

Why are we talking about physical crippling vs. mental crippling in a thread about psychologists, of all people? Of course psychologists are going to be more involved in mental crippling, what does it matter if another type is worse?

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:53

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

mobby_6kl posted:

You could say APA citation styles are already torture.

Somewhere MLA is smiling in the shadows

"All according to plan..."

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:53

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

I've known people with psychological scars who would absolutely consent to having their fingernails torn off if it made the mental pain go away.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:55

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Volcott posted:

The interrogation method that cripples you is objectively worse.

I could probably kill you with loud music given about a week or two.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 20:58

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

Zas posted:

Why are we talking about physical crippling vs. mental crippling in a thread about psychologists, of all people? Of course psychologists are going to be more involved in mental crippling, what does it matter if another type is worse?

Wasn't it the psychologists who came up with the whizzo idea of pumping food up people's asses until they had anal prolapses as a way of fostering dependence?

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:01

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

nopantsjack posted:

Wasn't it the psychologists who came up with the whizzo idea of pumping food up people's asses until they had anal prolapses as a way of fostering dependence?

I thought the CIA came up with the idea and some nasty psychologists just supervised it or whatever? I admit it's been awhile and I don't have time to do the research now

Granted the overall framework of 'learned helplessness' was all psychologists

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:04

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

I too am terrified of my therapy sessions being part of a CIA torture experiment, because most torture victims are also big autistic weirdos.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:11

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

Zas posted:

I thought the CIA came up with the idea and some nasty psychologists just supervised it or whatever? I admit it's been awhile and I don't have time to do the research now

Granted the overall framework of 'learned helplessness' was all psychologists

From what I recall from the dossier it was based on one of the psychologists' work on "learned dependence" or some similar idea.

e: Oh wait thats what you said I no read good.

How come the US has the death penalty but never uses it for cool things like executing torturers?

Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Aug 4, 2015

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:13

Gyre: Feb 25, 2007

Fojar38 posted:

I've known people with psychological scars who would absolutely consent to having their fingernails torn off if it made the mental pain go away.

This. When my parents were younger they lived in Portugal, which was a Fascist country, and one of their friends got tortured by the political police. They didn't want to leave evidence of the torture or have her die so they sleep deprived her. It was so horrible she broke her glasses and ate the shards so they would have to stop and take her to a hospital.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:14

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

Gyre posted:

This. When my parents were younger they lived in Portugal, which was a Fascist country, and one of their friends got tortured by the political police. They didn't want to leave evidence of the torture or have her die so they sleep deprived her. It was so horrible she broke her glasses and ate the shards so they would have to stop and take her to a hospital.

People have incredibly loving dumb ideas of what is and isn't torture. Leaving someone in a white room with nothing else for a week is torture, you don't need to literally be cackling, holding red hot pliers. Psychological torture is still torture and you can very badly mess people up without ever laying a hand on them, its not "smarter" torture, its just torture. Which is somewhat of a moot point as the torture sessions these guys were overseeing were explicitely physical torture anyway, the only excuse the CIA seems to have is if they'd stop if the person was about to die which... is sort of the point of torture.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:18

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Volcott posted:

Should we not use harsh language against detainees either? Wouldn't want to hurt their feelings or anything.

Oh shutup, you know this isn't objectively the same.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:24

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Its sort of like asking which is worse, a sociopath who thinks people being concerned about torture is a great opportunity to troll, or a sociopath who doesn't see torture as inherently bad.

The answer is irrelevant because in both cases he can gently caress off

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:36

BUG JUG: Feb 17, 2005

Mel Mudkiper posted:

The biggest disaster out of all of this is the absolute power struggle there will be for citation styles

Chicago uber alles.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:52

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

Don't you guys understand that the United States is at war?

We can go back to treating prisoners lawfully after everything bad in the world is fixed. As long as there's anyone anywhere with ill will toward the government you're just going to have to grow up and accept that punching, simulated drowning, sleep deprivation and telling prisoners they are about to be raped are the order of the day.

# ? Aug 4, 2015 21:53

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

BUG JUG posted:

Chicago uber alles.

Speaking of Chicago:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site

# ? Aug 4, 2015 22:31

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

Literally The Worst posted:

I too am terrified of my therapy sessions being part of a CIA torture experiment, because most torture victims are also big autistic weirdos.

it's what ewen cameron did, guy

# ? Aug 4, 2015 23:40

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# ? May 10, 2024 14:22

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/8/7/james_risen_in_sharp_break_from

James Risen: In Sharp Break from Past, APA Set to Vote on Barring Psychologists from Interrogations

# ? Aug 7, 2015 16:48

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