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Budget Dracula posted:I was disappointed you didn't have a shootout or fistfight with Skull Face. Kojima softly whispers, "the phantom pain..."
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Dec 13, 2016 00:28
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I wonder if we'll ever get the full story about why they couldn't finish a full sandbox game in five years while Ubisoft has turned this poo poo into a science by now.
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Dec 13, 2016 03:28
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FedEx Mercury posted:I wonder if we'll ever get the full story about why they couldn't finish a full sandbox game in five years while Ubisoft has turned this poo poo into a science by now. Ubisoft churns out really loving awful games. There's no mystery at all to scope creep and Kojima.
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Dec 13, 2016 03:41
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I don't know why it takes the chef so long to prepare my filet mignon while McDonald's can heave a burger through my car window in seconds.
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Dec 13, 2016 03:58
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2house2fly posted:I don't know why it takes the chef so long to prepare my filet mignon while McDonald's can heave a burger through my car window in seconds. A burger is better than a charred piece of meat with no side dish.
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Dec 13, 2016 04:01
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FedEx Mercury posted:A burger is better than a charred piece of meat with no side dish.
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Dec 13, 2016 05:10
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He's not that wrong though. The main series should've ended with MGS3. The best thing about 4 was that it enabled MGR to be produced. 5 is unfinished.
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Dec 13, 2016 07:26
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It's true. MGS1, 2, and 3 form the perfect mobius of gameplay and story.
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Dec 13, 2016 07:36
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FedEx Mercury posted:I wonder if we'll ever get the full story about why they couldn't finish a full sandbox game in five years while Ubisoft has turned this poo poo into a science by now. Ubisoft has a base they can work on and refine each time, if they started doing yearly MGS5 spinoffs it would've been easy for them
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Dec 13, 2016 07:55
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Terminally Bored posted:He's not that wrong though. The main series should've ended with MGS3. The best thing about 4 was that it enabled MGR to be produced. 5 is unfinished. FedEx Mercury posted:This game is really bad.
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Dec 13, 2016 09:37
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Saying TPP is a really bad game is as ridiculous as saying its story is so subtle it went over most people's heads.
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Dec 13, 2016 11:11
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Anyone says MGS5 is bad just needs to play it again
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Dec 13, 2016 11:41
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Ausmund posted:It's not a morality issue. Morality is relative, like the times. What this series tries to demonstrate is that war is objectively meaningless. MGS has a moral point of view, from the outset you lose points for killing your enemies.
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Dec 13, 2016 11:48
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Terminally Bored posted:Saying TPP is a really bad game is as ridiculous as saying its story is so subtle it went over most people's heads. I don't think it's that subtle, but I think people were probably expecting something more bombastic and wordy, and definitely something with more of a resolution (in a word, something more Metalgeary) and, understandably, didn't really engage with TPP on its own terms.
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Dec 13, 2016 13:22
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I think people expected cohesiveness and character development. Maybe more show than tell. I know I did after watching the fantastic camerawork in all these awesome trailers. Instead we got Resident Evil zombie parasites, men who do nothing but deliver exposition and a half naked girl who will die if she ever speaks English but refuses to use pen and paper. And if you want to listen to the cassette tapes during missions you better keep away from CAREFUL SNAKE IT'S AN ENEMY GUNSHIP
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Dec 13, 2016 14:09
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I don't know about you guys but I expect Metal Gear characters in my Metal Gear game. The only Metal Gear characters MGSV had were Quiet, Skull Face, and Code Talker. And they were pretty much the least focused on characters.
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Dec 13, 2016 16:12
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:He's very wrong and I will not stand for slander such as It had potential, but there's just mechanics in here and no fun game around it. It's funny how MGR, a much cheaper and shorter game, still pleases me to think about and replay whereas I never want to touch MGSV again.
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Dec 13, 2016 17:06
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I don't know about you guys but I expect Metal Gear characters in my Metal Gear game. The only Metal Gear characters MGSV had were Quiet, Skull Face, and Code Talker. And they were pretty much the least focused on characters. Huey was a pretty good character. He's an iredeemable piece of human garbage but he's the only one actually calling Venom Snake out on what he's doing.
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Dec 13, 2016 17:28
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Sky Shadowing posted:Huey was a pretty good character. That's because he's the only character who gets anything resembling an arc or development.
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Dec 13, 2016 17:30
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Don't forget D-Dog.
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Dec 13, 2016 17:57
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I'm still not certain if Kaz and Ocelot knew the big plot twist for the entire game, or if they found out when the player did. If it's the former than that game did everything it could to undermine every single character's actions.
Momomo fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Dec 13, 2016 18:07
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As I understand it, "character development" means characters changing as a result of the events of the story. Luke Skywalker going from a farmboy to a Jedi knight etc. Seems weird to claim this game has none, off the top of my head Quiet goes from trying to kill Snake to dying for him, and Miller pursues revenge then gets it finds it was good for nothing. And yeah, D-Dog is a cute puppy absorbed by the war machine and turned into a killer.Momomo posted:I'm still not certain if Kaz and Ocelot knew the big plot twist for the entire game, or if they found out when the player did. If it's the former than that game did everything it could to undermine every single character's actions. Ocelot knew but then brainwashed himself to forget. It's ambiguous when Miller finds out but since Ocelot already knows by that point it makes the most sense to me that it would be after the game's events when Ocelot's self-hypnosis has worn off.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:17
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Terminally Bored posted:He's not that wrong though. The main series should've ended with MGS3. The best thing about 4 was that it enabled MGR to be produced. 5 is unfinished. I could've sworn that it was meant to end at 2 (I thought I read an interview or something) but Konami basically made him do 3 so he could do whatever he wants and so he made 3 the best one by playing to what the fanbase wanted. I'm not saying mgs3 is meant to be like a cash grab or something but I'm fairly certain Kojima never meant for it to exist.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:38
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Luna Was Here posted:I could've sworn that it was meant to end at 2 (I thought I read an interview or something) but Konami basically made him do 3 so he could do whatever he wants and so he made 3 the best one by playing to what the fanbase wanted. I'm not saying mgs3 is meant to be like a cash grab or something but I'm fairly certain Kojima never meant for it to exist. Every Metal Gear game since 8-bit Metal Gear was supposed to be the last until Kojima felt pressure, caved, and made another one.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:44
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Luna Was Here posted:I could've sworn that it was meant to end at 2 (I thought I read an interview or something) but Konami basically made him do 3 so he could do whatever he wants and so he made 3 the best one by playing to what the fanbase wanted. I'm not saying mgs3 is meant to be like a cash grab or something but I'm fairly certain Kojima never meant for it to exist. Yeah, 2 was meant to be his last Metal Gear game and he wanted his team to take over the reigns afterwards. Then they were having problems so he took over 3. Then fans sent him death threats for not making 4 so he made 4. Then I guess he felt compelled to do Peace Walker and V afterwards and look how that turned out for him.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:46
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2house2fly posted:As I understand it, "character development" means characters changing as a result of the events of the story. Luke Skywalker going from a farmboy to a Jedi knight etc. Seems weird to claim this game has none, off the top of my head Quiet goes from trying to kill Snake to dying for him, and Miller pursues revenge then gets it finds it was good for nothing. And yeah, D-Dog is a cute puppy absorbed by the war machine and turned into a killer. Character development works best when we see what motivates it and get to watch it happen on-screen. For example, Final Fantasy VIII definitely has its characters change--Squall is a totally different person at the end than he is at the beginning--but it essentially happens all at once, in the time it takes the player to take out disc 2 and put in disc 3. That's not good character development. Really, the whole open world thing kinda hamstrung MGSV in that department anyway. The story's just so chopped up (and let's not even talk about chapter 2) that it's hard for anything to land with any real impact. Mr. Fortitude posted:Yeah, 2 was meant to be his last Metal Gear game and he wanted his team to take over the reigns afterwards. Then they were having problems so he took over 3. Then fans sent him death threats for not making 4 so he made 4. Then I guess he felt compelled to do Peace Walker and V afterwards and look how that turned out for him. I mean, Kojima has said every Metal Gear game since the first MGS would be the last. The ending to MGS1 was supposed to be the last we'd see of Solid Snake, for example. I'm glad he got to make 2 and 3, at least, especially 3.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:15
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I'm glad he made all of them.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:26
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Very glad I live in the world where MGSV was released, however unfinished it was.
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Dec 13, 2016 21:12
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I watched the Ocelot-Miller exchange at the end on Youtube, this saved the store from being a total wash with me. Both of them resolving to support the sons of Big Boss ties it in well with the other games. Too bad I would have had to replay the same missions over and over to find this out.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:13
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Harrow posted:Really, the whole open world thing kinda hamstrung MGSV in that department anyway. I honestly don't know why MGS V is an open world game. Like, there really isn't a reason for it to be open world. In most open world games there's a point to the world, like things to do that you can't necessarily do during missions, and the missions facilitate the open world by giving you new tools and toys to play with (or make the current tools and toys the world gives you more accessibility). But in V, the only thing to do in the world is grind. There's blueprints, which is nice, and better soldiers, but you can get those during missions (and most missions usually direct you towards getting the better ones). I think the only reason it was tooled to be an open world game was because at the time of development, there was a pretty big emphasis on games being open world experiences and so Konami felt MGS V had to be an open world game and Kojima caved so he could make Silent Hills. It's the only thing that makes sense to me considering just how big a detriment the open world element of the game seemingly was upon the story and direction of the game.
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Dec 13, 2016 22:56
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Kojima had bigger ideas for the open world that got cut, like dynamic war with shifting battlefronts. "Open-world" being a very marketable bullet point was also part of it, of course. But it definitely wasn't Konami forcing it on Kojima, he was outwardly hyped about making an ambitious open world game with a theme of total player freedom.
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Dec 13, 2016 23:46
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I wonder how much stuff had to go to squeeze the game onto a PS3. It's probably easier to make multiple versions crippled in the same way rather than one which is more crippled and one which is less.
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Dec 14, 2016 00:16
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One thing that affected MGSV's story is the same thing that has affected the story of every single Metal Gear Solid: Hideo Kojima. There is literally nothing in the game's open world that could have stopped there from being lengthy cutscenes filled with yapping about poo poo in a circuitous manner, and anything that suggests otherwise is at best wishful thinking from people who wanted something else. I'm convinced that the decision to rely on tapes and limited numbers of cutscenes was a deliberate choice that unfortunately bounced off a vocal portion of the fanbase that believes plot twists delivered via two poorly animated faces over a black background to be epic. The other thing that affected MGSV's story is most definitely an outright hostile work environment that went as far as to try and isolate him from his team, which is both bizzare and so loving Japanese Business it hurts. At the same time, what it really means is that we did not get Mission 51, which ties up a thread that, even to me, was pretty weak and uninteresting. What we know about 51 as a mission and as a series of cutscenes does not transform MGSV into a game that is more like previous games in the series. With its inclusion, the game would still be MGSV, a meandering story of outright deception directed at Venom/The Player, under the veneer of Revenge Against Skull Face. We are performing the dirty jobs that in other games might even be central plot points, that for Big Boss are little more than busywork that gets in the way of something larger, so he leaves it for his Best Man. With Mission 51, Miller is still deceived by Big Boss and is treated as little more than a useful chesspiece to manipulate Venom's thoughts and actions. With Mission 51, we still wouldn't be playing as Big Boss, and what little we get from the man himself shows that he's playing a game that Zero himself abandoned due to sickness, an individual so detatched from the majority of his supporters and allies that he's more than willing to orchestrate this grand deception that ultimately holds them and the rest of the world by the short hairs. We are focused, deliberately so, on Skull Face and his machinations, but Big Boss himself, even with Mission 51's inclusion, would still be far beyond hunting down the man and killing him personally. It would still be left up to his Best Man to tie up a loose end. His runaway clone son is beneath his concern, that's left up to his Best Man. The most he cares about is propagating his own mythological status among mercenaries so he can later viciously exploit this as necessary, so he trusts his Best Man to handle all that for him while he works his way back into good graces with the United States, whom he will later betray anyway. MGSV is in no small part about living up to the expectations of a role thrust unexpectedly and possibly unwanted upon us, and by the end of the game we perform exactly what was expected of us. It's about being exploited by a leader of a cult of personality. That wouldn't change magically with the inclusion of a refight with Metal Gear Sahelanthropus and some cutscenes with the most annoying white kid ever.
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Dec 14, 2016 00:20
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fivegears4reverse posted:One thing that affected MGSV's story is the same thing that has affected the story of every single Metal Gear Solid: Hideo Kojima. See, this is the reading of MGSV I've taken away from it as well because it's the only way the entire game makes any sense and actually works as part of the Metal Gear chronology. The thing is, I'm honestly not sure if this reading is intended by the developers. The ending we did get seemed to imply that "You're Big Boss too because you the player followed the series to the end and added to the legend of a mythical hero, good job you're awesome have a gold star!" and that really irks me on a number of levels. I honestly still think the intended interpretation by the developers is that Big Boss didn't do anything wrong and he's still a hero because of that. Even though the interpretation of him being a warmongering hypocrite who threw his Best Man to the wolves to clean up his own drat mess just like the US government did to The Boss, as well as the power of being brainwashed by a cult of personality and how easy it is to be exploited by a charismatic individual is a far more interesting reading to me and it's really the only reading which salvages MGSV's story. That reading would also make Peace Walker really the first half of MGSV and Ground Zeroes is just a bridge between the first half (Peace Walker) and the second (Phantom Pain). In the first half you get to know a charismatic Big Boss and don't see him as doing anything wrong and he appears really heroic as he recruits mercenaries and stops Coldman. Then Ground Zeroes happens and he starts doing all kinds of shady poo poo like destroying documentation and hiding his nuclear capability from the UN. Then in Phantom Pain it's revealed that you've been played like a fiddle by a charismatic, hypocritical liar and his actions during Peace Walker seem to take a new light when you notice he does a lot of questionable stuff in that game too including recruiting child soldiers in the form of Chico, you just didn't question it at the time of playing Peace Walker.
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Dec 14, 2016 10:24
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Mr. Fortitude posted:The ending we did get seemed to imply that "You're Big Boss too because you the player followed the series to the end and added to the legend of a mythical hero, good job you're awesome have a gold star!" Everyone says this but I really doubt it. Big Boss sure says "you are part of my legend, this is good" but that's not the last thing that happens in the ending- Venom Snake then sees himself in the mirror covered in blood, punches the mirror, and walks away into darkness. Those positive words(said by someone who's a villain the rest of the series) are followed up by a bunch of negative imagery.
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Dec 14, 2016 12:58
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Big Boss is an idea... and ideas are bulletproof.
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Dec 14, 2016 14:30
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Raxivace posted:So I've decided to enter the uncharted world of Metal Gear fanfilms, starting with this short that came out in 2011. No, but this was probably the best fan short. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcUHSphvSgM
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Dec 14, 2016 14:57
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Mr. Fortitude posted:The thing is, I'm honestly not sure if this reading is intended by the developers. The ending we did get seemed to imply that "You're Big Boss too because you the player followed the series to the end and added to the legend of a mythical hero, good job you're awesome have a gold star!" and that really irks me on a number of levels. I honestly still think the intended interpretation by the developers is that Big Boss didn't do anything wrong and he's still a hero because of that. This feels to me about on par with reading Starship Troopers as entirely sincere and pro-military society.
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Dec 14, 2016 15:02
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2house2fly posted:Everyone says this but I really doubt it. Big Boss sure says "you are part of my legend, this is good" but that's not the last thing that happens in the ending- Venom Snake then sees himself in the mirror covered in blood, punches the mirror, and walks away into darkness. Those positive words(said by someone who's a villain the rest of the series) are followed up by a bunch of negative imagery. While he also walks off to his death, which Big Boss appears to have ordered, doing to Venom exactly what he hated the US for doing to the Boss. Thing is, I loving love the idea of the twist. I really do. I think it's brilliant and I think it's the best way to show us Big Boss's final descent into villainy: show us Big Boss becoming exactly what he hated the most. I just wish it had been pulled off better. Like, what if Chapter 2 had had more original missions, maybe a couple of smaller, GZ-sized new maps to explore rather than a whole third open world. It takes place over the course of a few years, Venom Snake continuing to build up MSF after defeating Skull Face, but as he does, he starts to have flashbacks that don't line up with his identity as Big Boss. He starts to remember who he really is, but it's subtle, weird, he doubts his own perceptions, starts to become paranoid. Once you do enough missions where you trigger flashbacks, another mission shows up, with no prompting from another character, where Venom decides to go to "where it all started" and you head back to Camp Omega. When you get there, somehow it's populated with soldiers--your soldiers, all armed with tranquilizer guns, and if you listen in, they think this is an exercise, keeping them sharp, sort of a "can you catch the one and only Big Boss if he tries to sneak by you?" And sneaking through Camp Omega doesn't trigger Big Boss flashbacks, but flashbacks to what the medic was doing at the time. It ends with Ocelot, because of course he saw this coming, waiting for you at the center of the camp with a tape. He says, "I think you're ready to hear this," and hands it to Venom, and Venom puts it in a tape player. We don't hear the audio, but it triggers the final flashback, which is just MGSV's Mission 46, escape the hospital again, only this time with the truth at the end. Then we see the true ending exactly as it was in the released MGSV, because drat it, that's a loving great scene. The mirror smash, he walks off into the darkness, that's chilling, and it'd be even better if it felt earned. Something like that, I think, would've required minimal new assets (hell, you can even cut the smaller, GZ-sized maps and have all the Chapter 2 missions just send you back to Afghanistan and Africa, just as long as there are more new missions than there were) while also doing a much better job of making Venom's realization into a story in and of itself, and doing a better job of explaining why Mission 46 suddenly appears. Harrow fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 15:06
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It should have ended with Venom fatal ripping the horn out of his head to stab skullface in the head with it. Then they both die. Skullface's mask in tatters makes him the mirror image of Venom. Like, the aspect of MGSV's story I care the least about is "explaining" why big boss supposedly got killed twice.
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Dec 14, 2016 15:10
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