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Borneo Jimmy posted:Shame to see this thread devolve into posters advocating for fascist terrorism. Venezuela has shown some remarkable restraint in the face of threats like these and I can only commend them for standing strong. You're a miserable piece of poo poo for supporting Maduro and his nonsense, and it's my personal hope that you eventually suffer the same things you support as they are inflicted onto others.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:02
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Hey, even I can accept that Chavez did some things that weren't horrible. A lot of my friends in Cuba benefitted greatly from the aid he provided to Cuba, so even if he was an authoritarian bastard, he was not 100% evil. And I will confess that I even enjoyed the US being called on some of their poo poo now and again. That said, there's absolutely no universe in which the behaviour of Maduro's government presently is even remotely acceptable, and I cannot imagine the sort of mental gymnastics you would have to do to even come close to justifying it at this point. Fidel Castro is one hundred times the man that Maduro could ever hope to be in his wildest fever dream, and even he was a terrible person in many, many ways.
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Sep 11, 2015 06:07
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Is the situation in Venezuela worse than Cuba right now, as it appears to be judging by the widespread unrest? If so, how the gently caress did that even happen? Or is Cuba still worse but better at repressing the opposition?
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Jun 23, 2017 00:27
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Lol the economy is booming in cuba Oh I know it, as soon as paladares and casas particulares were a thing, poo poo really took off. Still, they had big problems, and a quite massively incompetent government and part of me still finds it hard to believe that the government of Venezuela is so significantly worse. A friend of mine down there refuses to eat beans now because of how poo poo the Special Period was, and now I hear they're going through a big drought. I do believe it, though, I just wanted to ask before I stared in amazement and went "holy gently caress, they're worse off than Cuba."
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Jun 23, 2017 03:01
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Maybe the enemy of your enemy isn't your friend. I get being leery of US involvement in Latin America -- hell, I've defended the Cuban government on occasion, and they're pretty bad -- but Venezuela right now is, by all accounts, extremely hosed, and if a touch US imperialism is the price needed to pay to get Maduro the gently caress out of power, then it might be there's no other choice. Chavez was a lot of bad and a dash of good, but what he created in the hands of a man much less competent than he was, is quite obviously a completely unsalvageable disaster.
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Aug 1, 2017 00:41
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Chuck Boone posted:Notice that this image is from July 14, and it lists the Bs/USD exchange rate at Bs. 8.493.97/USD. Sounds like a CIA plot IMHO, now let me tell you about the wonders of socialism! Edit: that was sarcasm. I felt I needed to make it clear because there are tankies around here who would post the same thing in sincerity.
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Aug 1, 2017 16:28
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Hey look it's evidence of the exact thing every person who isn't a tankie retard knew was going on: https://twitter.com/bbcworld/status/892728034121351169 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 2, 2017 13:53
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Negrostrike posted:Looks like Maduro just broke relations with the US. US officials gotta haul rear end from there in 72 hours. If the US doesn't recognize him as the official leader, can't they tell him to go kick rocks? I mean, obviously it'd be dangerous to a point, but on the other hand I really doubt Maduro is quite dumb enough to attack American diplomats outright.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:30
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If we're going to make comparisons to Iraq, let's ask: would Saddam be a better leader for Venezuela than Maduro? I'm not certain but I think it's possible. I doubt he'd be significantly worse.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:39
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Dabir posted:So what is it that Maduro's actually done? I read back a few pages and you all just seem to have agreed that he's bad without saying why. A completely hosed economy beset by hyperinflation, starvation, political repression, incredible corruption and insane levels of violence and property crimes. Meanwhile, he steadfastly refuses to accept any fault for this through a patented mixture of insanity, magical thinking, and blaming nebulous imperialists. I mean, say what you will about Castro, but having spoken with Venezuelans presently, and Cubans who lived through the Special Period, the current situation in Venezuela is actually worse and Maduro is in complete denial of the problems.
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Jan 24, 2019 03:30
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Randarkman posted:Then again that headline does seem like its trying to own other socialists, not necessarily the guys running Venezueala. Also, just because you are a socialist doesn't mean you have to defend the guys running Venezueala. Sadly it seems a lot of self-identifying socialists seem determined to defend Maduro's regime. Still, it's their own choice and the consequences are their own fault.
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Jan 24, 2019 05:27
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Regardless of their stated views, they are glad to avail themselves of support from one of the chief sources of maldevelopment and political chaos in Latin America. Why should the US be trusted this time? The US shouldn't be trusted, it should be ignored in this case. Their support or lack of support is not relevant to deciding whether Guaido is in the right to do what he did. This whole "well, if Trump approves, it must be bad" is paranoid tankie thinking. Trump may be a giant idiot, but his position is presently irrelevant to the situation.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:51
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uninterrupted posted:Hey, sidenote for the people promoting the constitutionalist argument for the coup: if Guaido is now president, assuming he doesn’t get arrested/killed/etc, what happens in 30 days, the maximum time the president of the National Assembly can fill in as president of the country per article 233? Does Venezuela have no president? I think he must organize free and fair elections as soon as possibly able to do so, and should he fail to do that, then it will be legitimate to say he has usurped authority unjustly. On the other hand, you can't exactly hold free and fair elections if the country is mired in a state of unrest and control of the government remains uncertain, so it may be necessary to wait more than 30 days depending on what happens. A return to free and fair elections is essential.
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Jan 24, 2019 19:09
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Pharohman777 posted:https://twitter.com/OfficialSPGB/status/1088566066593390592 Frankly all of them should be. If you say socialism will make a country end up like Venezuela, they will very correctly point out that Maduro is a thief, a bastard and no true socialist. But the minute they sense any attempt to remove this fat kleptocrat son of a whore, suddenly it’s time to circle the wagons against yanqui imperialism. I do not understand it.
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Jan 25, 2019 00:49
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Hey, just a thought, what if the US intervention in Venezuela was less like Iraq and more like the Marshall Plan? Like, political pressure until Maduro fucks straight off, and then massive unconditional foreign aid until it resembles a functioning society again?
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Jan 26, 2019 01:10
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I don't think it's likely that will happen, but it is a plausible way in which US intervention could be a very positive thing and it is based on a thing that happened in the past successfully, and maybe Americans who hate Maduro but also hate the idea of typical American meddling could, I dunno, recommend this mode of intervention instead, in place of saying "nah let's just leave Maduro to do his thing and beggar the nation."
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Jan 26, 2019 01:14
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“What I have in mind is being like Cuba. You know, the garbage economy and political repression bits. Perhaps I’ll consider things like attempting to improve education and human development after that, but we’ll see.” This guy is more unhinged than Che, and that’s saying something.
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Jan 27, 2019 15:45
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Rust Martialis posted:But.. they *are* corruption schemes. This is what a lot of people appear to be willfully ignorant of. Criticizing Maduro's current "social programs" (read: ways to funnel poo poo to friends and loyalists) is not the same as criticizing the concept of social programs. It's like reading a discussion on US healthcare and its problems, and saying to the people who say the system is poo poo: "oh, so you want NO ONE TO HAVE HEALTHCARE????" Of course the answer to the problems in Venezuela is not going to be "have no social programs," it's going to be "replace the instruments of state corruption with social programs that actually function as social programs." It's going to require a lot of investment and international support at this point, but maybe if we stopped treating the situation like some sort of lovely team sport where it's acceptable to support a murderous thief in an attempt to stick a finger in the eye of US hegemony regardless of the cost, it would be possible.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:26
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fnox posted:Ultimately, I feel the same as Chuck, it's extremely disheartening to have committed so much effort updating this thread for years, trying to keep people informed in a country that was becoming more and more isolated due to media persecution...Only to have Americans come in and say "Actually CLAP is good and you're racist". Go to QCS and petition for Chuck to be given idiotking powers in this thread so he can probate the people who are clearly just posting in ignorant bad faith. I would hate to see this thread permanently wallow in this current state of discourse.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:50
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EDIT: Nevermind, don't want to post about posters against the moderators' warning. Why is Donald Trump's motivation relevant to the discussion? He could be doing whatever he's doing for his own selfish, stupid reasons (and he probably is) while still doing the right thing. The right thing can be done for the wrong reasons, that doesn't make it the wrong thing to do. This issue should be viewed in the context of Venezuela and Venezuela alone, and from that point of view, the US is doing the correct thing by helping to remove Maduro, and Maduro's allies are doing the wrong thing by continuing to support someone who has stolen immeasurably, both money and lives, from his nation. PT6A fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 21:22
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Chuck for IK of the Venezuela thread! May his rule be wise and constitutional, like Guaido's.
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Jan 28, 2019 02:10
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Furia posted:The government should stop opening fire on peaceful citizens. This is not a difficult puzzle to solve Also, Maduro should resign, return all his ill-gotten gains to the State of Venezuela. Question to Venezuelan goons: would you be okay with a situation in which Maduro and friends go into exile in Russia or Turkey or Cuba and don't face justice for their crimes, provided that it got them the hell out of power peacefully and quickly?
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Jan 28, 2019 19:41
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I on the other hand think we shouldn't condone political assassinations in order to try and provoke war.
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Jan 28, 2019 22:12
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A thought for those who say that Maduro is bad but American intervention would be worse: you're not wrong, and we could solve both problems at once if Maduro hosed off permanently thus ridding the country of himself, and also of the pretext for the USA to get strongly involved. So if you actually believe that Maduro is evil, and US intervention could make things much worse, then it would follow that you should strongly support the opposition, and also support the PSUV being replaced by the elected and constitutional interim president, Guaido, before any form of American intervention can be reasonably justified.
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Jan 29, 2019 13:32
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I think it's okay, even good, to be suspicious of Guaido's actions, motivations and sources of support, and through doing so, make sure he is held to the appropriate standard: that he must continue to do what is reasonable to restore Venezuela's constitutional democracy. What's not okay is writing him off entirely at this point and sitting on our hands as we wait for the second coming of Christ to descend from the heavens and personally remove Maduro from power. Whether it's Guaido or someone else, we have to accept that we'll probably never get the clean, perfect leader to confront the PSUV and remove them from power without any external support from sources we might prefer stayed the gently caress out of the situation. Guaido seems, at this point, at least good enough that all those who are opposed to Maduro and Chavismo should work with him, criticizing where necessary and supporting where possible, to restore a free and democratic Venezuela.
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Feb 2, 2019 14:02
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This seems encouraging. Hopefully the police continue to do the right thing and any question of US military intervention becomes a moot point.
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Feb 2, 2019 16:43
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When the people of a country "coup themselves," we have a special word for it: democracy.
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Feb 2, 2019 16:58
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Kurnugia posted:which will be replaced by a democratically couped government of a far worse variety if the US gets its way. if you think that the Guaido coup would lead to a government that cares one bit for its citizens interest, i wanna know why. cuz there's quite a bit of material showing that every coup that US has ever backed ended up a violent oligarchic dictatorship Remember when the goddamn yanks installed De Gaulle in place of the proper Vichy government in France? Their lust for imperialist bloodshed never stops! I mean, I'm not going to defend every (or even any) lovely thing the US has ever done on its international adventures, but this situation is about restoring democracy against a military dictator who has usurped power, not some sort of goddamn coup.
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Feb 2, 2019 20:07
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Would it work if the government/external groups paid food producers the difference between the market price of food, and the price-controlled price of food? That way they'd have incentive to produce, and food wouldn't immediately become super expensive. Obviously it's not a strategy that's sustainable in the long term, but it seems like it would help stabilize things in the short term without having people starve because they can't afford food.
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Feb 3, 2019 13:20
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If you're concerned about the US pulling its normal bullshit in Venezuela, it would seem the prudent thing to do would be to remove any pretext for them to go on a military adventure. Like getting the gangster military dictator thief to gently caress straight off, and then to hold free and fair elections. Do that and there's no risk of the US doing anything militarily; the fact that a corrupt gently caress like Maduro is in charge is the only thing that could possibly give them a "legitimate" reason to gently caress poo poo up hardcore.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:38
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Saladman posted:That's what I meant about shitposting. This is a good point and it's a link no one else has shared, but drat man, at least include the Tweet in an image or preview it or give a summary of what you're linking if you're not quoting another post or something that would give context as to what you're linking. Besides, I'm not sure comparing Maduro's actions to Trump's and Bush's petulant nonsense is the win some people seem to think it is. When Bush mishandled Katrina and Trump mishandled the disaster in Puerto Rico, those were both awful things. Saying it's okay for Maduro to do those things because Trump and Bush also did them is the tu quoque fallacy, or "and you are lynching negros" updated for the modern age.
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Feb 10, 2019 19:23
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Compared to 10 million people starving is this really a worthy comparison? Absolutely. It was awful when the US was doing it, and given the scale of the crisis in Venezuela what's going on is far worse. The people who think that "well two of the worst presidents in US history did similar things on a smaller scale" is a compelling argument clearly have their heads up their arse. gently caress Trump and gently caress W too, they are and were poo poo, respectively, and Trump too should resign for the good of his country and join Maduro in exile in some autocratic shithole to avoid justice for his crimes. Does anyone actually think anyone supporting aid to Venezuela is somehow pleased by Trump's handling of the disaster in Puerto Rico?
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Feb 11, 2019 04:44
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The Cuban government may be quite bad on a number of different levels, but I still believe they honestly think they have the people's best interests at heart and try to act in accordance with that, even if we recognize they've hosed up a lot. Also they aren't quite as staggeringly loving incompetent as Maduro.
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Mar 16, 2019 19:02
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MullardEL34 posted:I’m not a fan of the Cuban government, but even I have to admit that they’re wildly more competent than The PSUV. It should be emphasized that this is an incredibly low bar to pass.
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Mar 16, 2019 20:23
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