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Yeah I already said it’s fun and funny. Hire More Women Zeon pilots the video game. It’s in conversation with a legacy of stupid OYW side plots most of which are far worse than Code Fairy for taking themselves too seriously. The only good OYW side story is War in the Pocket imo.
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Jan 4, 2024 18:59
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brainwrinkle posted:you may have missed the whole point of Gundam. if you think Zeon are unequivocally the Bad Guys and the Federation are the Good Guys
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Jan 4, 2024 19:22
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Who put the all the poor people in space in UC? Hmmm good question. Could it be the Federation? Could Zeon have some legitimate grievances about a negative peace imposed upon them? Alas, we will never know, as they are the Bad Guys.
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Jan 4, 2024 21:39
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I agree that the leadership of Zeon is unambiguously bad and fascist, but extending that to claim that every story featuring Zeon grunts is fashy is a stupid stretch. Mobile Suit Gundam goes out of its way to show that people fight for Zeon for real reasons beyond a fascist ideology. The core ideology of Zeon is co-opted by the fascist leadership.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:01
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Quattro Bajeena can’t beat these fashy allegations
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Jan 4, 2024 22:09
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ninjewtsu posted:if there is nuance present in code fairy on the subject of the manner in which zeon chooses to engage in warfare and how that affects their legitimacy as a cause, it'd be cool to hear about that It’s been two years so my recollection is hazy but: The main character is recruited out of the Flanagan Institute, so there’s certainly some elements of that. There’s also a mission where the orders for the squad are likely intended to get everyone killed after Kycillia bites it, since they’ve lost their sponsor. The commander has scenes where they struggle with that IIRC. It tries a little too hard to keep things light to really succeed on the drama of Zeon getting rolled near the end of the war. If they hadn’t pulled their punches on the last mission and actually killed off everyone it could have been interestingly tragic. Edit: ah yeah the commander of the squad is explicitly anti-Zabi. brainwrinkle fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 22:21
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Yeah I’ve never claimed that Code Fairy is high art, but to say it’s equivalent to IGLOO because there’s a Hildofr and Zeon soldiers is ludicrous.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:45
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Yeah, it's translated. It's even on sale for $15 if you want to experience the pinnacle of Gundam video game facism yourself! https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10001164/
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Jan 5, 2024 03:51
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Yes it’s politically incoherent because they’re trying to weld present day liberal Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead sensibilities with OYW Zeon military special forces plots. I choose to read it as campy but I guess some people take it deadly seriously.
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Jan 5, 2024 15:21
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I think that’s the Haman Karn office lady manga
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Jan 5, 2024 15:49
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tsob posted:Does it? I can't think of any character in Zeon during Mobile Suit Gundam beyond Char and Lalah who actually give, or even imply, a reason for fighting on behalf of Zeon and both of those are explicitly selfish reasons that have nothing to do with ideology. Char is doing it for revenge, and even implies he wants the Federation to win during his conversation with Sayla in the Texas Colony, while Lalah is fighting purely because Char saved her life in some (at the time) unspecified manner. She unambiguously states that in the Texas Colony, and her final fight involves her lamenting that she met Char first and wondering if she should join Amuro instead. Beyond that, nothing that I recall. The team in "Time, Be Still" do seem to be conscripts as previously mentioned, and honestly, I think that implication underlies a lot of the rest of Zeon (see Ramba talking about taking the mission to get revenge in order to improve the lot of his men or Doan deserting after being ordered to kill a load of kids for instance), and does a lot to explain the motivations and reasons for why people did fight for Zeon if it were true, since at that point many of them wouldn't have really had much choice. No other work, even by Tomino, actually supports that view though. First, I wanted to say that I appreciate your detailed reply to my incendiary shitpost. I think Char and Lalah are sufficient evidence for my read since . I think Char is key to my argument. My most significant evidence for this comes from Zeta Gundam and Char's Counterattack primarily. I was referring to Gundam as a series in my posts (apologies for the lack of distinction). I do not believe Char ever expresses regret for furthering Zeon's cause as a soldier. His personal revenge plot is both excellent character work and also a great example of the difference in ideology between Zeon and the Zabis. In Zeta Gundam, as Char fights for AEUG, he expresses a fairly pure Contolism ideology. Char is key to the AEUG's political efforts in Dakar despite not initially wanting to get involved beyond being a soldier. In Char's Counterattack, he is willing to drop Fifth Luna on Earth to advance the ideology of Contolism. The people cheer for him in the subway car. From Zeta Gundam onwards, it's very clear that there is significant Contolism support among the populace outside of the influence of Zeon fascism. It's a little unclear how much the populace cares about Sides independence versus keeping the Earth pure for nature. Both themes are revisited separately in late UC.
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Jan 6, 2024 14:58
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Nessus posted:I think the subway car people in CCA could be taken as, basically, revanchist sentiment breaking out. How do you explain the Angel Halo project in Victory Gundam then? Contolism is a popular ideology even 2 generations past Char.
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Jan 6, 2024 23:07
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Kanos posted:Explain how? It was a superweapon designed to kill everyone who opposed Zanscare, much like their previous superweapon designed to kill everyone who opposed Zanscare, the dick and balls cannon. The Angel Halo was explicitly meant to kill all life on Earth in order to cleanse it, aka basically CCA's plan but without the asteroid.
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Jan 7, 2024 00:05
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UC kicks off with the Federation sending like 80% of the Earth's population into space. That sounds incredibly cool and hopeful! And then, intentionally or not, the Federation does not have the last 20% of the population leave Earth. It is not explained why this is the case. ZZ and CCA explicitly show us that the rich and the people with Federation government connections are living it up on Earth, while the poor on Earth suffer. So what are we to take away from this? If you're sympathetic to the Federation, you could say that all of those first 8/10 left willingly. Corruption, unwillingness to move, and inefficiency are the problem. How will the last people leave, or will the Earth's resources be used equitably? The Federation seems to have no vision for this. Amuro believes it will happen through mutual understanding eventually. He is proven wrong by the Canadian TV film production G-Saviour. I think the read that makes more sense is that the Federation did a little bit of ecofascim from UC 0000 to UC 0075 to reduce Earth's population. They've created some Lebensraum for themselves and are hoarding the dwindling natural resources. This doesn't justify the Principality of Zeon's actions in the OYW at all. I said that Zeon had legitimate grievances against the Federation. But perhaps you can see why Contolism might be such an enduringly popular ideology among Spacenoids. Two fascisms don't make a right of course! And Zeon definitely does worse war crimes more frequently. But the Federation has a few too. I just don't think you can reasonably see the Federation as the Good Guys. More like Bad Guys lite. brainwrinkle fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 00:09
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Gaius Marius posted:In this house the Jovian Emperor was a contolist hero, end of story! Well when your ideology is one part "cleansing the Earth" and one part "space colony nationalism" any independent space colony nation that attempts to cleanse the Earth is doing Contolism whether intentional or not. It was sold to Maria and the people as a way to achieve peace through non-violent means (lol).
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Jan 7, 2024 00:31
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Fonse Kagatie's secret plans to re-colonize the empty planet are certainly post-Contolist. The public cover story of Angel Halo is what's important to illustrate common Spacenoid ideology. Zanscare convinces 20k people to board this death trap to achieve world peace with the Earth. The cover story is decidedly more Contolist in that they're trying to reach a reconciliation as an independent power. I think the themes of Gundam stretching (somewhat) consistently throughout UC are pretty fascinating. Minus Unicorn.
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Jan 7, 2024 01:32
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tsob posted:He's not though, and thinking he is is basically making the same mistake Char did in Char's Counterattack i.e. the Federation hadn't immediately vacated Earth following Zeta and thus they had to be forced; at least partially because of the very real reason that they had gotten into another war immediately after committing to it; though they probably were never going to in reality. Amuro's "eventually" does not have a set time frame, and he was talking about a fundamental change in human nature. Which is not going to change overnight. Or even in a few generations. You could possibly say he was wrong because it still hadn't happened by the time of Turn A Gundam and/or Reconquista in G, but (a) the time frame for both is somewhat ambiguous, especially if you take Tomino's word about G-Reco following Turn A and being a few hundred years after UC and (b) even if you did then both Amuro and Char are wrong, because the entire plot of both rests on the premise that living in space is kind of poo poo and civilizations who do for a significant time frame want to move back to Earth. Which is also a recurring theme in UC villain motivations. I do think the fact that people are living on Earth means that the aims of Contolism have failed by the time of Turn A and G Reco. Everyone in those settings has a completely different set of ideologies. Contolism seems to be entirely forgotten. So maybe Amuro is partially correct? People have reached an understanding by not caring about that particular conflict anymore. Of course there's still conflicts regarding who is entitled to live on the Earth like the Moonrace settlers and Reconguista, but those have much more hopeful framings. Those conflicts don't start by eliminating half of all humanity. The theme that living in space is really pretty awful is fascinating since it seems to get expressed with more emphasis over Tomino's works in production order.
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Jan 7, 2024 03:13
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According to the Dark History, people were on the planet the whole time (if I recall correctly). Narrowly, I'd call it a failure as Deikun's purpose was for everyone to get off and the planet to become a protected nature preserve. The politics of "get everyone off the planet so that everyone is on an equal footing and humanity can progress" is the sticking point. It turns out you could rejuvenate the planet without doing that! The natural restoration does seem to have happened slowly because conflict did not stop until the Earth's civilization was destroyed. I do agree that the aims of rejuvenating the planet are mostly achieved. Assuming that Reconguista comes after Turn A as Tomino states, people directly claim that the Earth's environment is still fragile and requires careful management. brainwrinkle fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jan 7, 2024 |
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Jan 7, 2024 03:43
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It feels like much of the discourse in this thread is on “ZZ is too goofy, you should skip it” level of wisdom. The new Gundam show made by 40k people might be bad because Unicorn proves that most new Gundam shows are pro-fascist? Wow, do tell. I’ll give you a free pass if you’ve actually watched the shows you’re complaining about.
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Mar 27, 2024 13:59
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