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chiasaur11 posted:Gato's Gihren levels of lovely person without any of the, you know, intelligence. Cima is killed by Kou because he's been awake for like over 24 hours, just had to watch someone get murdered, and also he's fought her a tonne of times and she's responsible for his mentor's death. I mean... it's still lovely that she died to her ally (Who she was firing on, even though it's clear it was in self-defense) Honestly I really hate the entire back half of 0083 after the director swap. Also it's like... loving awful at portraying just how much this entire thing is all manipulation by the Titans, and God drat would that have been so perfect to bury Gato under "You know those people you all killed? Yeah, that was all of our political enemies. In fact, everything you've done, is a perfect response to allow us to seize even more power." The beauty of the Titan's plan was that once Gato had the Nuke, it didn't matter if he got stopped. I really wanted that driven into the dumb fucks head, I wished that instead of Cima dying, he got to die realizing not only was everything he did for nothing, but it did the OPPOSITE of nothing, It actively helped his enemies. Arcsquad12 posted:Cima was a space pirate who gave no fucks and just wanted to screw over everyone who had wronged her. Too bad she killed Burning, they would have been great together. I mean probably very intentional, Del Toro mentioned that the design of Cherno Alpha was made to resemble a Zaku. Also I'm fairly certain Synapse was executed for deleting the information regarding the GP-Series. Or at least I remember reading as such, that the reason Kou got out of Jail was because Synapse basically made it so there wasn't any 'evidence' of poo poo going down. Onmi fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Mar 21, 2018 |
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Mar 21, 2018 07:28
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Arcsquad12 posted:I don't even think the rise of the titans was even the original end goal of the series. That felt like a back end last minute change after they realized they couldn't end the show with Gato nuking the fleet. So jamitov and bask show up out of nowhere to say "psych! It was me all along, Austin!" and the whole thing turns into a clusterfuck. Not really, the nuke is a good enough reason to form the Titans "Look at what happened because we didn't have a group in place to put a stop to these things pre-emptively." And Bask being shocked when it fails seems on point, it would only have HELPED the Titans to succeed in stopping the colony, because then they'd also be able to point to all themselves as heroes who saved the earth, but failing didn't hurt them either. It was literally no-lose for the proto-titans.
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Mar 21, 2018 09:30
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brainwrinkle posted:I started the second half of Victory, and I can see the show starting to fall apart. This is sad. Is this where the second season curse originated? No but Tomino was heading through... not sure if it was 'peek' bad stuff in his life, but he clearly wasn't coping
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Mar 22, 2018 07:35
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I always liked Sayla even in the TV broadcast of 0079. I do like that the one time where Bright does go "Oh Sayla, did you do this just to prove a woman could fight too." It's actually Sayla using that as an excuse for her real, actual reasons (Trying to find out about Char from Ral's crew) I like that Origin gives her more too, but she's always been one of the best Gundam girls. Just a pity her character essentially got dropped after 0079. Continuing to gush, I like how her, Kai and Amuro sorta formed their own little trio at the end while Hayato really was on the outs from them because Hayato... didn't really struggle or have to come to terms with the loss of war. His entire thing was "gently caress I can't even keep up, that's just the limit of a normal human I guess." Also, just in case people haven't checked out the SA Gihren's Greed thread, and aren't on /m/ Gihren's Greed: Threat of Axis V (Or Gihren's Ambition: Menace of Axis V as it's being translated as) has been getting translated over on /m/ as of now the translator has finished doing all the intro cutscenes for each faction, translated all the names, weapons and plans, all of the menu's except one which has a stupid programming limitation around. And he's in 2 more days going to start hitting the dialog for the EFSF and Federation campaigns.  So yeah, that's a huge positive.
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Oct 11, 2019 08:14
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The thing I like best about Relena is that people continuously gently caress up regarding what her actual goals and motivations are. Even when she expressly states them in Endless Waltz. Namely; she doesn't really believe in Absolute Pacifism and seems entirely on board with having her own weapons to defend her ideals. Noin and others seemed to assume that she would hold those ideas, after all, she is a Peacecraft, but Relena herself fully admits she doesn't even understand the principles of it. She's mostly using it as a tool to gently caress with the Romefeller Foundation, and later to attempt to get Zechs to stop fighting. But when it comes to her actual beliefs, it's that you should fight for what you believe in. The most standout moment of this is when Noin and her butler are talking in the Sanc kingdom about their hidden MS team, and they think they have to keep it a secret from her because she'd never accept it, it'd go against her principles. Followed by Heero flat out telling her to her face and her giving the equivalent of "Yeah, sounds good."
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Oct 11, 2019 09:16
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tsob posted:I don't know. Hayato was actually kind of cool in Zeta. He started and lead an underground militia to combat the Federation's excess, while Amuro was just hiding away from his fears under house arrest and Sayla had retired and stopped trying to help society in general. That's a way to look at it. I always saw Hayato leading Karaba as a bit of a napoleon complex. He was still trying to 'beat' Amuro even then, because well... the kids didn't want to be like him, they wanted to be like Amuro.
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Oct 11, 2019 18:12
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gourdcaptain posted:By the standards of "former Gundam cast character", even if that was his reason for running Karaba, he's still upper percentile for being alive, not a complete mess, and doing something productive. I mean it wound up getting him killed.
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Oct 11, 2019 19:42
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gourdcaptain posted:(Looks that up.) Oh poo poo, I am sorry!
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Oct 11, 2019 20:05
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To bitch about the EFSF Gihren's Greed: Menace of Axis V campaign for a moment, I do not think someone thought through the tech levels or Campaign balance. Basically, EFSF goes exactly how you'd expect, right up until you finish the Delaz fleet, because the next faction you think you'd fight would be either the Titans or AEUG. Instead the next faction you fight is Axis. Axis was absolutely not meant to be fought with an EFSF that just beat Delaz, let's analyze. The EFSF has very few events in the Delaz fleet section we have the Test Pilot Acceptance Program which gives your Chris if you didn't get her in Part 1 and it gives you Kou and Keith after 5 turns. You have the Gundam Development Project, the Naval Review, and the big one is Operation Stardust which ties into them all. Operation Stardust is a total of 16 turns from kicking off the Gundam project to the disbanding of the Albion team and recruiting Cima. So by the time you finish the Delaz Fleet it's around turn 116, maybe 120? About this level of tech, is 14 or so? Depending on how much you invest? Right... Here's Axis's tech level when they arrive.  As you can seem 0083 equipment at tech level 14-15 isn't meant to fight Tech level 22 suits. But... let's check our upcoming technology developments and see how we can advance. Let's assume we hit 16. we get the EWAC Zack, a good scouting unit, We get the Asshimar which isn't the greatest because it's earth locked but sure, we have a transformable squaddie. We have the GM II, it's cheap but it clogs the ground, we have the Hizack and the Hizack Custom, they're pretty strong, and then we pause. Because the units we should be getting around this time are Protoype Mk.II Gundam, Delta Gundam, and Mark II Gundam. In fact, we should have had a unit to fill in the gaps at the end of the Delaz conflict for us. the GM Quell and the Hazel Gundam... Those were at Tech level 14. And we didn't get the Galbalthy Beta at Tech level 15. At tech levl 17 we should be getting the Rick Dias and the Hyaku Shiki, at 18 we should get the Gaplant, Marasai and Methuss. Of them we'll only actually get the Gaplant. At 19 we should get the Nemo, but we don't, at 20 We should get the Messala, the Psycho Gundam, the Zeta Gundam and the Dijeh. We'll only ever get the Psycho and Messala. At 21 we'll get the Gabthely (an actual upgrade!) and at 22, parity with Axis we'll not-get the Nemo II, the Hyaku Shiki Ground Type and the Zeta Plus A1... we will get the Byarlant, the Bolinoak and the Zeku Ains though! And finally be able to fight Axis one on one. So... why do we miss so many units... well... because the events of Zeta haven't happened yet. And until you've sided with either the Titans or the AEUG all those units attached to those facitons are blocked of. So the Feds go through a huge essentially wasteland of actual upgrades from the end of the Delaz Conflict until they beat Axis, at which point they've probably out teched all those old suits. Upon defeating Axis, who are brutally difficult if you don't cheese the game you move on to fight... The Titans or the AEUG both of whom are fielding poo poo like the GM II or the GM Quell or in some cases, Fly Mantha's! You tech up so hard against Axis because they're a ZZ enemy, only to be thrust to fighting Start of Zeta/Pre-OYW era enemies! It feels like the factions are utterly reversed, like you're meant to choose your Law/Chaos split, and then fight Axis, or Axis shows up mid-fight, or even the AEUG/Titans show up mid-fighting Axis... but they don't. You'll have characters become Titans, but they won't split into the Titan enemy faction, unless you agree to investigate them at Blex's request and more importantly, not until you beat Axis, who's using Quebely's, Zzaz's and Doven Wolves! What this essentially means is that for basically all of Part 2 for the EFSF, you don't get any tech, until you get passed Zeta, and your reward for beating ZZ-era tech, is to get Zeta tech that you should already have. And the kicker on top of this? Is the Zeta Project, which unlocks a tonne of suits like the Ex-S Gundam and almost all Zeta tech... is loving locked behind clearing the game twice! It's miraculous how poorly thought out Part 2 is. EDIT: Here's a bit of a comparison     This is Axis Tech.   This is EFSF tech Onmi fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Oct 13, 2019 |
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Oct 13, 2019 21:41
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tsob posted:There's no way Cruise would ever play a loser like Kou, who failed on multiple fronts in the end. Couldn't stop Gato, couldn't stop the colony drop, his love interest snubs him in favor of his rival in the finale, and then just turns up again afterwards like their reunion is supposed to be a happy moment the story has earned with no elaboration. Thanks for reminding the class how 0083 goes completely off the rails once the director changes. Nina, Episode 1, directly staring at Gato: No recognition Nina, once meeting Kelly: OH poo poo THAT'S RIGHT I'M GATO'S EX.
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Oct 14, 2019 19:23
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tsob posted:The recent anniversary documentary that was translated on YouTube makes it sound like that was Tomino's intention all along, to target teenagers and young adults rather than kids. I can't remember the exact line, but there's something in there that implies it if I recall. The 'Expected child audience' is probably the better way to say it. Robot shows were primarily seen as children's television.
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Oct 15, 2019 01:20
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Warmachine posted:If you didn't read the spoilers, sober up at Moon Moon is the method I took. I cannot take people who can't enjoy Captain Bright vs the Spaze Aztecs seriously.
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Oct 18, 2019 03:42
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Erd posted:"Comedy" is peppered throughout. Just before the final battle there is wacky cross dressing hijinx. And the constant 'Glemy stares at naked child' scenes are worse than any of that. Tigerbaum is a deliberate throwback to the old, zany antics of before, and it's there for a specific reason. Putting this in spoiler tags for Gourd The entire point of that arc is that you can't go back anymore. It literally kicks off with the Moon Moon girl telling Haman, you've got a choice to make soon, because at that moment Haman was just another refugee on the Nahel Argama, so, she had the choice to just... disappear, leave the war behind, she'd already been betrayed, she knew she wasn't going to win, hell she even knew Judau would protect her, because absolutely would. So she could just leave, things could go back to the way they were, and hey, this colony we've gone too, these kids are just as zany and crazy and dumb as the Gundam Team was back on Shangri-La, it's old antics again and silly and fun and oh the girl died... yeah... turns out you can't go back anymore. We're stuck on the paths we've chosen. Haman can't just quit, Judau can never go back to just being a junker, Beecha and Mondo can't go back to their antics, no one can anymore, even when or if the battle is over we're never going to be who we were, those people are gone. It is a very deliberately set up arc for a very specific story reason and it works because it does manage to convince you just for a little bit, that things might be okay.
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Oct 18, 2019 04:36
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gourdcaptain posted:I will admit my reaction to as they left for orbit Sayla suddenly showing up out of nowhere for a brief silent clip with a surprise alive Leina was to immediately think of this: So Sayla is a weird case, because they intended to use her even in Zeta, but her VA was on safari I believe so they replaced her for Beltorchika, then they basically had an entirely separate anime planned for Double Zeta, before they'd even finished Zeta, like no mistaking they had an idea in mind, but there are parts of the pitch that just don't line up at all. So they probably brought her back thinking "Okay we'll do something now" and again just... didn't. https://pastebin.com/0SkxGTUt
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Oct 18, 2019 07:11
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HitTheTargets posted:Is this the fabled original plan for Char prior to CCA getting greenlit? The one even Tomino says he can’t remember? Apparently, like the link says it comes from a japanese book from 1991 which contained the original pitch for "Zeta Gundam Part 2". https://twitter.com/TomAznable/status/955586425612840960 Seems confirmable
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Oct 18, 2019 16:58
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I've heard the defences of IBO's ending before but no matter how many times I hear it, it doesn't change that people would be weird singing that if it was the Titans and AEUG. "Why does anyone in the world give a poo poo about the son of a guy who died before the last big war and who was a crazy crackpot. He held no power on earth and is probably singlehandedly responsible for his ideals triggering mass death. So obviously the Federation just abandoning the Titans AND AEUG to see who kills one another and the AEUG, a weak organization who somehow thought the words of a mass killer who was in turn the son of a crazy person, would be enough to get the people on their side. So the Titan's wipe them out with their super laser. Oh but it's okay, afterwards, Jamitov decides to clamp down on the gassing and oppression of spacenoids and institute positive change, even though that makes no sense given everything he's done to this point, we need this ending to not be completely depressing." And honestly, that's my biggest problem with the IBO ending. That Rustel implements reforms and otherwise positive changes despite having no reason to do so. Because otherwise, the ending would be too depressing. poo poo yeah, it should be depressing. It should show the iron grip solidify and in fact, there is no hope of change, the system is too big, no one person can make a difference and rebellion is childish and will be crushed. I'd have LOVED that ending, instead what I hear people go "Because Kudelia" what the hell can she do? Assassinate her, you've already used weapons of mass destruction and broken so many laws, you've never before been talking about reforms, what did this sudden positive change come from? It comes from nothing, it comes from "Oh boy people would feel awful if we just downer ending'd this." And it would, but it would be an honest ending.
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Nov 3, 2019 11:41
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Lemon-Lime posted:The show does in fact give Rustal reasons to implement reforms from the start of season 2. His goal is to ensure the long-term survival of Gjallarhorn as a force for stability, and he points out that the corruption is bad for this because it will eventually either collapse or be overthrown, so his plan is to clean house. He has similar goals to McGillis, but because unlike McGillis and Tekkadan he doesn't have inescapable past trauma, his plans are much more pragmatic and end up working. So, we just had a different set of psychopathic murderers shoot people and then solve the problem. Alright, Rustal's plan is loving stupid and let's use the Titans as an example again, Jamitov's plan, CANONICALLY, with the Titans was to drive humanity into space, because he was a Zeon Deikun diehard. It's why he was so negative on Bask for being such a brute. But if Zeta had ended with everyone dying and then Jamitov, the leader of the Titans, sending humanity into space and thus accomplishing the goals of the protagonists, you'd call bullshit. Rustal opposes the ideas of reform to Gjallarhorn from the start, he actively works against it, and then at the end reveals "Oh, actually I totally want to reform Gjallarhorn too, and thus I'll do it with no problem." Ignore that he's a known criminal, and that the protagonists exposed his criminal dealings too before the ending of the show. So not only must there be an acceptance of "Oh yeah, he totally reformed things" there's an acceptance "and the public is so stupid they've forgotten how they learned he's a massive criminal". Actually, let's use a more extreme example than the Titans. Gihren Zabi is a mass murderer, he is the one responsible for the colony drops, for the gassing of innocents, Attempting (and eventually succeeding to the) murder of his own father multiple times, and implementing a "Human culling plan" to keep the population "Reasonably sized and only the elites" So take that guy, have him win in the end and then have him go "Actually, now that we've won the war, it's puppies and rainbows time! I will end the corruption of both the Earth Federation government AND the Principality, I'll change us from a dictatorship to a democracy, and everyone will live happy and free and liberated." You'd think Tomino had a stroke, that he was an idiot. "Hey the guy who supported and used the corruption of Gjallarhorn, maybe more than any other character in the show, is actually totally for the reforms even though he's been against them the entire run, and even though everyone knows he's a massive criminal, doesn't matter. Happy ending guys!" He has no reason to listen to Kudelia, he has no reason to not continue the corruption, and reform into a democracy, he is, in fact, more corrupt than any of the people he's getting rid of. Even if he decided to reform Gjallarhorn, he had no reason to reform it in such a way that it's everything the protagonists wanted. In fact let's look at that Kudelia reason again "Institutional change needs to happen for things to get better, you can't just solve everything by having a bunch of psychopathic murders shoot it." Alright... what exactly lead to the change? Was it the exposure of Gjallarhorn's crimes? If that's the case again, that Rustal is able to do this and not have the citizenry going "No, you're a corrupt criminal and need to hang" is laughable. Because apparently it's basically bloodless after Tekkaden. There's no way I can look at this ending as anything more than "I am trying to have my cake, and eat it too. I want a downer ending that's not TOO downer." I am not even mad at "He reformed the system" I'm mad at "He reformed the system perfect for everyone so that the only people mad are just the ones who resent their personal loss." It is utterly biteless. It takes away what could, in my opinion, have been a great ending and makes it a cop-out. Yes, my problem with the ending, is that's not soul-crushing enough. Neddy Seagoon posted:Killing Kudelia was also only doable in season one because at the time she was pretty much a nobody. Gjallarhorn wanted her dead before she could get on the political stage and spread her message of reform. By the time of season 2 she's too well known to bump off without there being nasty ramifications on both Mars and Earth. She has friends in high and low places, and a decent political base. And even in season 1 they had to try real hard to cover it up with operations like the Dort Colonies false-flag riots rather than making a direct assault on her life. Rustal, to justify his own uses of weapons of mass destruction, not only false-flagged but sacrificed his own people. Why not just do the same thing to Kudelia, Have someone pretending to be a Kudelia supporter bomb a city block. He has no reason to capitulate to her, other than show would be really depressing if he didn't. Onmi fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Nov 3, 2019 |
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Nov 3, 2019 12:39
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Darth Walrus posted:Also, calling McGillis's endeavours 'reform' seems like softballing it a bit. The only real ideology he expresses is that the solar system should be governed according to personal martial strength. The Baal is important to him because it is the symbol of the greatest warrior in history, and he claimed it through force of arms. Remember that conversation he has with Mika where he basically goes 'hey, you're incredibly good at killing people, why don't you try your hand at politics?' He doesn't just oppose McGillis though, he opposes reform, has directly profited off the system without reform, and is an entirely selfish person who any time he's not gone with the system, is purely for personal profit. He's as bad as Gihren. He's as bad as Jamitov, he's an out and out villain, who until the ending shows no reason to believe he's for Reform. Gripweed posted:There had just been a minor civil war where a decent chunk of the Seven Stars families had broken away from Gjallarhorn because of a chain of events that can be traced directly back to Gjallarhorn's child brothels. On top of that there were pirate and mob MS armies building up their strength using the AV technology, labor unrest, and a growing nonviolent political opposition. You don't have to be the sharpest knife in the spoon to see trouble ahead. None of you are explaining why the reforms made at the end, were done in such a way to be overall solving all the problems. All you're doing is really explaining why they shouldn't. Again I ask, what is the reason the reforms are all happy good, and not "gently caress you, it doesn't matter, it might on the surface placate the issue, but life remains terrible because the powerful have power." There is no good reason, because Rustal is a monster. He's a monster who's known to be a criminal at the end, who no one opposes and who makes life amazing. Again, the Titans, it'd be like "Hey, didn't you get exposed for gassing colonies? Isn't it known you used nuclear weapons, and murdered people? Like aren't you known both war and normal criminals?" "Yup" "And we're just supposed to forget that and not oppose you at all because you defeated the AEUG." "Yup" Neddy Seagoon posted:He did so to discredit and eliminate a PMC and mafia faction. That's a whole different thing than making a martyr among the average citizen. How is framing the person claiming to represent liberation as a terrorist mass murderer making a martyr of them? That sounds really stupid, then again the people of IBO are loving morons apparently so they are unpredictable. Cao Ni Ma posted:Rustal is a centrist liberal that will do everything to maintain the status quo and any concessions he appears to be making are just there to further propagate. And there is nothing noble about letting minorities/women/lowborn whatever progress inside an institution thats meant to put a boot on the rest of the populaces faces. That is clearly not what the show is going for as directly pointed out by the people arguing HERE that "Oh the show's point is that change can only happen through institutional change, and the protagonists were dumb and Rustal brought those changes about thanks to Kudelia." And that the only people shown to be upset with the change are Ex-Tekkaden who are all off-the end crazies. EDIT: Ugh this is a terrible top of the page. Hey you know what's sexy? The Destiny Impulse, isn't this suit just the most beautiful thing and it's god damned crime that the Destiny exists instead of this. 
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Nov 3, 2019 13:33
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Gripweed posted:The actual reforms mentioned at the end were banning slavery and some kind of independent Martian government, Banning slavery actually helps Gjallarhorn because it prevents another Tekkadan and hurts the pirate groups. And allowing the Martians a government just brings them to parity with the earth blocs. Which was already happening, the events of Season 1 forced that. Remember the whole thing about Mars getting a trade deal with Canada? So Gjallarhorn is still in control, just like they are on Earth. None of the characters in the show were trying to establish communism, so going "It isn't the establishment of a communist paradise or destruction of class" is loving pointless. Here's the problem we're sitting at. 1. All of the things protagonists wanted with reforms, happened, this happened independent of anything they actually did and done by a person who has opposed these very reforms. Which makes the message of the show that you can't reform the system with a gun, you need to reform it with legislation and change, thus proving Kudelia right. This is bullshit because: There's no reason for Rustal's reforms to line up with everything the protagonists wanted. There's no reason for him to listen to Kudelia or capitulate to her requests. The man who has already proven the shadiest most underhanded poo poo, and do it in such a way he'll get praised for it, isn't going to do this. Also, it's still known that Rustal is a criminal, who not only benefit from the corrupt Gjallarhorn but is actively a criminal the public should recognize as such. Instead he's hailed as a hero with no apparent struggle. 2. Rustal did the bare minimum of 'reform' that didn't actually change anything, and won't. In turn, Kudelia is a fool, reforms cannot come from within the system, because they will never actually reform anything. This leaves the message of the show as "gently caress it, there's nothing you can do to an overly powerful government body. You can't beat them and any concession's made are ultimately meaningless. This is bullshit because: The show doesn't treat this as the message, it doesn't make it seem like the new Gjallarhorn is miserable or oppressive, the only people who are in rebellion are the former Tekkaden members whom are more mad they got murdered than anything, and aren't out to change the system. While I actually prefer this interpretation because I believe this show should just end completely miserably. The reason this message doesn't reasonate is the same reason SEED/SEED Destiny's "War sucks" message doesn't reasonate, in that what we are shown is the complete opposite. For example, I recently have been taking my non-mecha friends through the MSG trilogy, and their main is that 0079 doesn't show war to be cool. It shows it to be miserable. That is a show with a theme that it carries through via what's presented. SEED and Destiny fail because they don't show war to be a miserable slog that's loving with the minds of the people involved and that there's no real happy ending and in the end finding a small group of people you love in this vast ocean of despair is all you can really hope for. They show you everyone being super successful and killing all the bad guys (without actually killing so they can also claim pacifism), flawless victory. If 2. Is the intent, it's a failure on the part of the direction to not convey that.
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Nov 3, 2019 14:03
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Lemon-Lime posted:So what's your actual problem here: that the bad guy wins at the end by exploiting everything the protagonists did for two seasons to stabilise the status quo, put himself in charge and get great PR from implementing changes for purely selfish reasons, or that the ending isn't bleak enough? That the ending isn't bleak enough and the way it currently is, is a cop-out and I can repeatedly call it a cop-out. I am of the belief that it is a copout ending because it is shot in such a way to not show the ending as dark. Go watch the final episode, go look at the way it is shot, the way music is used, the way it's wrapped up. It is not wrapped up as "The bad guy won in the end and manipulated the heroes and changed nothing he didn't need to change, and now has complete control of the system." It's wrapped up as "Everything is happy and positive now, everything we wanted happened, except the Tekkaden members out for revenge, and even that's fine." It is a show that should have a bleak ending, going "But actually Happy End" And I think it is poo poo for it. It is a trash ending, because it should be dark. Not because I specifically like dark endings, or dislike happy endings. But because it is an ending that ends with everyone who could oppose the bad guys dead, and everything they did pointless, but the bad guy wanted to do reform anyway so it's all cool. And then you have the people in the thread arguing stuff like this. Neddy Seagoon posted:You're also not supposed to like that Rustal broke peace with Kudelia, because it's still playing to his advantage; Compromising with him meant Kudelia got some reforms but Rustal's fundamentally headed them off for the forseable future. Which I repeat, watch the ending, pay attention to how it is shot, how it is composed. There are ways to convey things when telling a story, and you do not use positive bright imagery and only show negativity for a single directed at something pointless with nothing to do with the overall status quo, ending with smiling, if it's not meant to be a Good End. The show is definitely not trying to say that you're not supposed to like that they brokered peace, in fact it's saying the opposite. It's saying you should be happy with the changes are more are coming in the future. I bring up, for the umpteenth time, which no one addresses because they know it's a lovely ending, and know it's same and can't defend it. If Zeta ended with the Titans revealed to mass murderers who gassed colonies and used nuclear weapons and oppressed the populace and then AEUG and the Titans fought and then the AEUG lost, and then Jamitov, who canonically is a supporter of Zeon Deikun and his goal with the Titans was to get humanity off earth so they could all evolve as per Deikunism, deciding "Well now that I've won there's no need for that oppression stuff, let's give the people of space their independence as well. And let's end that Cyber Newtype stuff, never sat right with me." And the only survivor of all this was Katz, who was a pissy and jaded, but everyone else was happy with the state of affairs and moving on with their life. You would say it's loving bad, you'd say Tomino had lost his mind, you'd call it bullshit. Not because it's a Bad End, but because it's a bad ending.
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Nov 3, 2019 15:16
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You're not very good with subtext, are you? Everything happening there is on Rustal's terms. Peace has been brokered, but it's done so in a way that benefits him and his own designs. The status quo keeps spinning with a new name at the top of the wheel. You're not very good at like... shot composition, score, dialogue, tone... anything like that? If the intent was to show that? It failed, and it's a lovely ending because it utterly failed to convey tone meaning through anything more than "well if you just look at it." Yeah, it does look poo poo... so why'd you spend 10 minutes on a "Look everything is great now" sequence? Also, again, if that's the point, then point of the story isn't "Well you can't win change with a gun you can only win it through systemic changes" Which is the most popular argument for IBO's ending.
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Nov 3, 2019 15:25
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Happy Birthday Yoshiyuki Tomino, you crazy gently caress.
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Nov 5, 2019 16:07
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Bloody Pom posted:I finally got around to watching Narrative the other day, and that certainly was a thing that happened. I mostly just wish I'd used those 90 minutes on continuing my Zeta rewatch instead. Narrative is the proof in the pudding to me, that Fukui is a bad choice for Gundam. He's... got no understanding of UC gundam, which isn't fuckin' rare among non-tomino people, but he's the worst kind of successor. I mean Moon Gundam is just... bad... really not good.
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Nov 12, 2019 09:48
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drrockso20 posted:I feel the reason Yas did that in The Origin is because they're honestly too subtle about how crazy he is in the original series Hell my favourite moment in the original series is how Char tells Sayla "I'm not that conceited, I just want to make a world where newtypes can't be controlled and used." Before in his final duel with Amuro telling him that he's too dangerous to be left outside of someone's control and that's why Char has to kill him. Char is a hypocrite, he constantly spouts whatever he thinks the person listening to him wants to hear, but in the end he's just as bad as those he claims to fight against. My bigger issue with Char in the Origin is basically inserting him into events I don't rightfully think he needs to be there for, like General Revil's escape, which already kinda stinks of "Actually it turns out this was a Kycillia plot all along." in making the event kinda feel kinda wanky (Same as Ryu at the Battle of Loum) Interesting though, that The Origin introduces Lalah as being an Earthnoid, as it is kind of the massive silver bullet in the Deikun Newtype theory. Two of the series most prominent Newtypes (Lalah and Amuro) are both earthnoids whom awakened on Earth, even if they did spend time in space, for Lalah it was after she'd already shown the signs, and for Amuro he showed no signs of awakening in space.
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Nov 15, 2019 09:01
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Nessus posted:I had thought it got explained somewhere that "Newtype" had become pop slang for psychics and other weirdos, and it only got fixed as a real term when Zeon and co. were able to confirm and make use of the psychic phenomenon in question. Was that in the OG UC novels? Well one of the big thing in 0079 was that despite everyone saying "Newtype" no one actually has any idea what counts as one, or if Amuro and the WB crew even are ones. Like it's even brought up directly with "Well, aren't the people of the White Base proof of newtypes?" "Didn't Deikun say that Newtypes were people who could live without war and understood one another perfectly?" Newtype's are mostly just propaganda for everyone. Char's a Newtype himself but doesn't seem to recognize he is. Zeta would continue this theme, by having a lot of what are ostensibly Oldtype pilots, essentially show what I'd think of as "signs of newtypism" curse Newtypes. Lila for example, I swear shows signs that she's becoming/become a newtype herself and yet doesn't seem to acknowledge or even think of it. In the end, Newtype's have multiple definitions.
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Nov 15, 2019 09:58
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I think Amuro sums up his feelings on Char pretty well during CCA and how he feels he's going about things.quote:“There are just some things you don’t understand. Revolutions are dreamt up by intellectuals, but their aims are so unrealistic that they’ll steep to drastic measures. Following the revolution, the worthy passions for rebirth are swallowed up by bureaucracy and mediocrity. Intellectuals hate this and withdraw from society and politics and become recluses!” chiasaur11 posted:And Kai never changed his opinion on Char, which is why he's so useful as a character witness here. From when they first met until Char died, Kai maintained a consistent position on the subject of Char, best summarized as a single raised finger. Which is even in the Novel, where after teaming up with Char and killing Gihren, as he watches him kill Kycillia the only thing that Kai can think is "Wow... I loving hate you. You're the loving worst human being in the world."
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Nov 16, 2019 05:54
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So I've read up to the latest release of 0083: Rebellion, and on the whole I'd day it's an improvement over the OVA. A lot of my issues with it are born from my own mentality, but there are still some real... "loving really?" Moments born from it. The first of a problem that's mine and not most peoples... the Mecha Wank. There's a sequence on earth where the Albion uses a G-Fighter II to combine with the GP-01, ignoring that I just despise the G-Fighter as a machine, there's also the point that it's only around for this and maybe one more sequence? Which creates the feeling of "Equipment of the Week" where suddenly the GP-01 has a tool that it won't have anymore. And a lot of it is gushing about the MSV in such a way that just... feels fake as hell? So here's another example, the Albion is tasked with searching the Garden of Thorns for the Delaz Fleet, but as an addition in this manga, Green Wyatt assigns a unit to the Albion who all use RX-81 G-Lines. That, seemingly, has no god damned relevance. The Albion doesn't wind up having to fight against the G-Lines (for more than a second which amounts to grabbing Kou's arm), when the G-Line's get involved in battle they get shredded just like a GM, none of our protagonists get one, so ultimately it leaves me going... "For what purpose?" On top of gushing over the MSVs, it also just like... drags in OVA/Video Game characters for seemingly no purpose other than "Hey look! It's Terry Sanders! And he gets a vibe from Kou that makes him think of Shiro! You guys remember Terry right?" Easily the worst loving offenders of this are Matt Healy and Ken Bederstadt. Both of these guys show up for what basically amounts to 5 pages or so... and I could not loving tell you why as they don't do anything related to Stardust, they show up, get name-dropped, wave to the camera and then leave. I don't know if it's meant to be promoting other Gundam Ace stuff, but I have a distaste for things that seemingly exist just to waste my time. That said, I do think Rebellion actually improves on a number of things. Most characters who died quickly in the OVA live out longer to be more fleshed out and have more of an arc. Dick Allen, who dies in the second episode to a bazooka body shot, survives all the way to the end of Africa, where his death isn't lost in the deluge of other deaths. Burning, rather than being killed by one of the stupidest deaths in Gundam, is instead killed by Kelly's Val Varo during the battle of Solomon. And speaking of which, Kelly. Kelly's role is greatly expanded, from actually getting picked up by Gato, killing Burning at Solomon, being defeated and spared by Kou, and piloting the Dendrobium alongside him.  He's actually allowed to feel like an important character and I don't think he outstays his welcome. But... okay y'all knew it was coming because it's where all 0083 Discussion has to wind up going. Nina. For the first half of the manga, Nina is fine, they do a bunch of rewrites and retcons to not make it that all of a sudden she remembers she used to be dating Gato. Then comes volume 8. So, Nina has gotten Anaheim to take her and another staffer to the Delaz Fleet, where she's going to confront Gato. She wants to hear from Gato if the only reason they were ever together was because he was using her to get the Gundam. Gato's pretty conflicted about saying it but clearly wanting Nina to not be involved says that yes, he just used her.   So Nina tries to shoot herself in the head. This puts her into a coma, and when she wakes up, the Igloo guys (See what I mean about Oh look it's those people from that OVA?) are trying to get her help to work out an issue on the Neue Ziel. Nina, in an utterly baffling decision, decides to not only help them, but gets them to dock at the La Vie En Rose. She then fixes it and confronts Gato again. And she genuinely comes across as crazy.    This is now the second time that Gato has told her to piss off, which you'd feel would be enough, you'd feel with everything else they changed, they'd change the confrontation in the colony control room. Nope, we're still on track for Nina betraying everyone for Gato, shooting at Kou and basically being firmly on the side of 'Bad Person'. Good to see the one thing that absolutely should have been changed, remains the same. So... overall... I like it? It's better than the whole OVA, I think it's worse than just the first 7 episodes of the OVA, some of the changes are good (Yay! More time spent with Cima) but there's a lot of eyerolling gladhanding over MSV and expanded universe stuff. But in the end it's still fuckin' Stardust. Which means the heroes never accomplish anything and a stupid love triangle that shouldn't be there is choking the god damned life out of the story.
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Nov 17, 2019 17:49
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So, when it comes to Gundam and being Anti-War, I think that an important part of an Anti-War work is that War has to feel miserable. The reason I'd say Gundam SEED, or Gundam AGE fail as works of Anti-War, is because War Is Cool! You want to be a pacifist? No problem, you can just beam spam on the battlefield and disable people! It's all the benefits of getting to pilot a cool robot without any of the downsides! 0079 encapsulates a feeling of being loving miserable. No one in the OYW is having fun, no one professes to a lofty ideal of holier-than-thou attitudes, they're all stuck in a shitheap of a war in which any moment they can die screaming for their mother or lover. There's a scene I absolutely love at the very end of 0079, it's when Kycillia is with Twanning in the Dolos and she goes "Why are our Mobile Suits moving like absolute poo poo?" And Twanning has to explain that everyone who knew how to pilot and was skilled, was dead. So the pilots are just trainees who're fresh from the academy. "But don't worry, they have love for the homeland and that'll carry them through." Not a second later one of them is being blown up and he's not screaming "Sieg Zeon" he's screaming for his mother. The reason pacifism and understand usually ring so god damned hollow in other works of Gundam is because usually, they're magical fixes to a problem. Despite the romanticized notion of a newtype in Tomino Gundam, the truth is that Newtypes can hate and reject one another just like normal people. Kamille rejected Haman and Scirocco, despite all three being Newtypes, Char and Amuro reject one another, in fact it's rarer to find newtypes who bind themselves together than it is to fight Newtypes whom fight. It's kind of why I've a deep hatred for Fukui UC (Along with most OVA stuff) There's a fundamental failure to grasp concepts Tomino introduced and treat them properly. Tomino introduces the concept of "Zeon has humans on their side too" and certain writers interpret that as "Zeon are Space Samurai and the soldiers who never surrendered after World War 2, and the Republic of Zeon are cowards." with such feverish nationalistic pride that is never loving ONCE rejected. In summation Tomino never depicts pacifism or understanding as solutions to war, but shows that war itself is a miserable experience which leaves everyone who touches it chewed up and spit out. War isn't cool, it's not fun.
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Nov 18, 2019 02:18
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GulagDolls posted:is the implication supposed to be that the reason she acts...like that later on, is cause of brain damage now. I don't think so but honestly like... the way she's drawn is like a crazy person. apologies for image spam of a scene.         The worst part is that the manga makes it clear, their relationship lasted for like... 2-3 months? So she's this torn up about a guy who she only kinda sorta dated. And then there's the scene she has with Kou, which really comes across as emotionally manipulative because she's just tried twice to get back with Gato. Like she enters his room and kisses him and then it's just...        And all this would be... fine, it would be acceptable... If we didn't still wind up in the same loving ending.  And it's so funny, like actually hilarious, because Kelly gets a moment with Gato where he realizes that Gato is full of poo poo and to swear him off. Basically, when Kelly hears that the Colony is going to be dropped on Von Braun, he wants to use the GP-03 to stop him, hence why Kou and Kelly are piloting it together, when the Colony is bounced back to head to earth, they confront Gato who's basically like "Kelly, why did you betray us to the federation? Why couldn't you trust me." When the entire point is that Gato didn't tell Kelly about Stardust's true purpose, and was the person who did the betrayal, Kelly was just trying to stop it to protect Latuera. And the thing is Kelly didn't tell the federation anything, and so, for Kelly, he realizes Gato's just a monster now, and should be stopped. Kelly is Gato's long time friend and he's more mature about the situation than Nina who knew him a couple months.        This manga... it's so weird, I do think it's better than the OVA, but holy poo poo is the handling of the latter-half Nina stuff still the pits.
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Nov 18, 2019 03:09
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Kanos posted:0083 Rebellion is definitely better than the OVA, but I largely agree that it has a lot of MSV fanwank and "hey look remember these other side story characters? they're in this one now too!". It wouldn't be so bad if they actually ya know... explored that Gato's essentially a wind-up soldier that Delaz has moulded him in to. Like there's a line in both the OVA and manga where Gato says "You saved me" and Delaz clarifies that Gato was "Reborn as a warrior of Zeon" and that's real loving cultish. I think that's ultimately a major problem with 0083 as a series that like... no one ever seems to call Delaz out on being a fanboy of the worst Zabi, or perpetuating a war for self-professed Space Hitler's ideals. Like... I remember back in 0079, where the Sieg Zeon speech is going on, and the moment it's over Bright immediately calls bullshit on Gihren. No one ever calls out Delaz, no one ever calls out "My Ideals!" It's not that Delaz being deluded and Gato essentially being his mouthpiece isn't allowed to be, but there's no opposing viewpoint presented. All anyone ever says is the equivalent of "Don't listen to them!"
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Nov 18, 2019 05:40
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Szmitten posted:Isn't the thing with Nina that the male writers believed that women are unknowable so they delierately constantly wrote her doing the opposite of what would make sense or did I imagine this? I think you imagined it. I've never seen anything like that.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:02
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Nessus posted:I think this is a Nina thing because Cima and the tall mechanic lady whose name eludes me were fine. Also, on positives, Cima is more prominent in Rebellion. Her death is still lovely, though this time it's not at the hands of Kou (making Kou much more likable) This time Bask betrays her in the middle of the battle and she dies rushing his hip. It's still a dumb dead (He gets impailed on the beam cannon as she gets close) but at least she isn't killed by the protagonist, making him more unlikable. I'd say my only 'issue' with Cima, beyond that, and this is just a me thing... I kinda wish she'd gotten more interaction with the Albion. She fights em a bit, she's responsible for totalling the GP-01 and she meets Kou while he's helping Kelly but... that's basically it? She's got her own plot which... alright other minor gripe but it's a not a Cima thing it's a Rebellion thing. So Rebellion adds a fight with an underwater zeon team called Kraken as the Albion pursues Gato to Africa, at first I thought I was getting MSV'd but they are original to Rebellion.  This is Clara Lodge, I actually like her backstory, being a Zeon cadet who was inspired by a pre-traumatized Cima when she came to give a speech. And her goal is basically to join Cima's marines. Now... we're 11 volumes translated, 12th slowly on the way as it gets completed, and I could not tell you why she exists. She... wants to be a marine, she hooks with Cima's crew, she gets the Tetra for her and wants to be taken seriously. Cima doesn't want her to join because Cima is a war criminal and thus even working for her would make Clara one (which she doesn't want, her entire goal in the manga is to find a way for her men to be free of their lable as criminals so they can live in peace) And finally when she aids Cima in the operation at the Colony when it's dropping on Luna, she makes Clara a marine. But Clara hasn't developed, she doesn't think "Man space is harder than I thought" or "Zeon's a bunch of fucks" or anything, she's just... same person. I'm kinda waiting for... the point. And it's not coming. I'm pretty sure she'll survive the final fight.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:17
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EthanSteele posted:The thing I hate about the SEED Kira beamspam never kill anyone but perfectly disable them every time is it implies that one of the reasons war is bad is because we're not good enough at it. If we were all good enough at fighting that we could just perfectly disable our enemies and never kill them then war would be completely bloodless. Amuro... doesn't go for the disabling shots. Amuro goes for the kill. Did you mean Kira? Gripweed posted:Maybe they're setting up a sequel manga starring Clara Potentially? I wouldn't be against beyond my hatred of Zeon MechaX posted:The fact that Kelly not only survives but is the one to tell Gato that he’s full of poo poo greatly pleases me I'm sure he's gonna die, everyone else who was slated to die did so, just at a different time. Dick Allen: Died in Episode 2 when a Dom blasted his GM at close range. In Rebellion, he survives until the end of Africa, since Monsha doesn't show up for a while, he's the one who demands the Gundam from Kou and sabotages his Corefighter's landing. Allen's scared of dying basically, dude survived the OYW and almost getting wiped out by Gato's assault has basically pushed him over his limit. However, when he hears that Orvell (the spy) sabotaged the Albion's guns, he flies back to the battlefield and pulls a Ryu on the Adzam the Africa forces got.     South Burning: Doesn't even get a briefcase or a stupid bullet lodged in. Unlike in the OVA where he's told he's perfectly healthy, the doctor tells Burning that he's hit the wall and should quit being a Pilot. Despite not being medically cleared, he tags along with Kou's GP-01 Full Armor to Solomon in an attempt to stop Gato, there, he and Kou fight Kelly and Kelly kills him.        Another change facilitated by Kelly surviving (and strengthening the Kelly/Kou bromance even more) is that after double KOing Gato, Kou is caught in the explosion and critically wounded, basically he's going to die of blood loss and he has a rare bloodtype to begin with, one that Kelly just so happens to have.      Kelly is referring to Kou defeating the Val Waro and not killing him despite begging Kou to do so.      
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Nov 18, 2019 19:25
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NikkolasKing posted:And of course at least some of this was engineered by Rau. He's got that Kefka thing going on where I'm not quit sure if this was always his plan or if he just stumbled into being at the right place at the right time. SEED is almost the complete opposite of Wing, in that by the end of Wing, the people in charge both planned to die while waging a war so terrible that humanity would never want to war again. A major thing for both Treize and Zechs is they're disgusted by the fact that war is being turned into a game, by turning it into a proxy via Mobile Dolls, because their point is very important in that it's "Don't wage war for stupid loving reasons, if you're going to kill someone, you better make sure you have a good reason to do it. By removing the cost of war (that is, death), you turn war into a game anyone can do for no reason. Whereas the end of SEED is both sides are going "gently caress YEAH! GENOCIDE!"
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Nov 20, 2019 06:23
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Omnicrom posted:My takeaway from the most recent viewing is that Quess basically exists to show that Char is wrong and totally full of it. Char says he wants to force everyone into space so they'll all be Newtypes? Quess became a Newtype ON EARTH. Hathaway may be a Newtype as well and the movie was also his first time in space, so it's possible that a new generation of Newtypes are coming to be, even with souls weighed down by gravity. Char's always been hypocritical and telling people what he thinks they want to hear. 0079 established that newtypism had nothing to do with space. Almost all the newtypes are actually Earthnoids or awoke on earth. With Char being one of the only exceptions to that rule. I read the Beltorchika's Children manga recently, and Char, for all his talking about how he wants/needs to beat Amuro fairly, also attacks him before he's back in the Hi-Nu and would have killed him with the hollowest possible victory. But he don't care.
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Dec 7, 2019 04:11
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Those are just small three-pack missile pods mounted onto a Gundam. The HeavyArms packs missiles everywhere they will fit IN the Gundam and then mounts even more in pods by the dozen. Isn't that the Prometheus from Frozen Teardrop? 
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Dec 11, 2019 13:15
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I was always a little confused by fuel in Mobile Suits. Like... They run on reactors right? That doesn't scream to mind for liquid fuel, and yet there's plenty of examples of mobile suits gushing the stuff (not to mention South Burning's stupid death)
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Dec 12, 2019 17:20
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I don't want The Origin with that shite rear end CGI. It looks loving ugly, choppy as gently caress like the framerate's dropped to the sub-10s and it makes Char look slow. How the gently caress is it 2019, almost 2020 and Zoids is still the premier "CGI battles look cool"?
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Dec 28, 2019 06:51
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MechaX posted:The "impossible to adapt" angle with Hathaway's Flash isn't super convincing for me; sure, Beltorchika's Children doesn't 1/1 line up with CCA, but Hathaway was a dad-issue-ridden, team-killing piece of poo poo (and this must not be de-emphasized; the boy directly killed someone on his team at the age of like 14 or something) and at least was present when Char was giving his spiel that turned Quess to his side. I think they have enough room on why he would lead a misguided terrorist group without turning too many eyeballs. Except the reason for his Terrorism in HF has little to do with any of that. And you can emphasise the team killing all you want, the difference is HF was specifically written about a version of Hathaway who didn't. Now it's still not "impossible to adapt " but that's marketing nonsense
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Jan 1, 2020 12:59
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https://youtu.be/AfGbRBFboHE This is weird
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Jan 1, 2020 18:39
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