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SedanChair posted:OK. Let's pretend for a minute that all the research isn't in on nations with single-payer health care. Take a look at this guy's logic: Because accident babies (no offense to the parents) puts a toll on not only the parents but also society. An accident baby (I'm venturing into guesswork here) is more likely to grow up...in a harder, more desperate life, which increases crime. Plus, who wants to make a kid that no one wanted in the first place? I'm not saying abort all accidents or not to but let's avoid that question ever coming up whenever possible. Just like education. That being said, you breaking your legs has almost no effect on society. foobardog posted:If you can see why you benefit from Planned Parenthood helping others', and why you benefit from others' schooling, why helping others afford healthcare should be obvious. Some illnesses are communicable. Most treatable diseases are less expensive to treat the earlier caught. Having large swathes of people unable to receive health care is a drain on the labor force. An extension of Sedanchair's query, sure. Like I said to him, you breaking your leg has negligible effects on society unless you're difficult to replace...in which case, you can probably afford the medical attention you need. Regarding communicable illnesses, for the big poo poo, I think the CDC does a fine job. For the little poo poo (like the flu) ...I can concede that free flu vaccinations should be available. For things like pink-eye, ring worm and other rarer transmittable infections...I really don't know. You should be quarantined (told not to go out, not bubbled) if you have a communicable infection that isn't contained (patch over your ring worm) at the very least. The thing is, though, identifying communicable infections is quite easy. You can make that poo poo part of an HR agent's job (to be ready to identify, not to intrude and inspect workers, naturally and only if the worker is voluntary or obviously infected [pink eye]). Like I said, I have no problem w/ taxes in general. We need roads, we need schools, we need the regulatory committees and I have no problem w/ the taxes I currently pay (except medicare, I got a problem w/ that). I am taking from the system, I'm damaging the roads, etc. and I should absolutely pay that. Again, as I've said countless times, I have no problem w/ most taxes. That being said, I wouldn't call Bill Gates or myself a sap on society. We're giving and we're taking. I'm not keeping score but I'm sure he's putting in more than he's taking and my ratio is probably way worse than his but I'm not worried about that. I know that some people can't afford being taxed at all and I'm not pitching the Libertarian ideals anymore, I'm cool w/ that. Right now, I'm only at odds w/ universal healthcare and primarily incidentals such as injuries, pregnancies, fatal non-communicable illnesses (read: cancer, alzheimer's). Tesseraction posted:A reminder to non-Americans: from 65 upwards the costs are already put on the taxpayer (via Medicare), so the vast majority of the cost is already being paid by the current generation of taxpayers. I'd like to point out that if I need a hover-round, I will die shortly after. My hobby is fatal if my reaction time, eyesight or hand-eye coordination fails and I have no problem dying that way. I have life insurance, it will pay for my body scraping.
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Dec 2, 2015 20:40
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Verge posted:An extension of Sedanchair's query, sure. Like I said to him, you breaking your leg has negligible effects on society unless you're difficult to replace...in which case, you can probably afford the medical attention you need. Regarding communicable illnesses, for the big poo poo, I think the CDC does a fine job. For the little poo poo (like the flu) ...I can concede that free flu vaccinations should be available. For things like pink-eye, ring worm and other rarer transmittable infections...I really don't know. You should be quarantined (told not to go out, not bubbled) if you have a communicable infection that isn't contained (patch over your ring worm) at the very least. The thing is, though, identifying communicable infections is quite easy. You can make that poo poo part of an HR agent's job (to be ready to identify, not to intrude and inspect workers, naturally and only if the worker is voluntary or obviously infected [pink eye]). These people who you think are negligible aren't. Let's say I ordered some slippers from Amazon. A warehouse worker at Amazon, the UPS delivery driver, the coder who made the software they run on, the business person who got the contract, the VP that got the capital, the weaver who made the fabric, the sewer who sewed the slippers, the picker who picked the cotton, the boat driver that brought them over from China, the dock worker who took it off, the delivery person who got it to Amazon's warehouse. All of these people played a part in me having my slippers. Yes, lots of these people are more replaceable than others. However, if one of them was out for having a broken leg, it may not have affected my pair of slippers, but it may have affected your iPod because a person had to step up and pick up the slack. And that's just the first-level connections. Those people had to eat, had to sleep, had to get to work, had to be schooled by other people, and those people, and those people. Capitalism does everything it can to obscure and alienate the process of production from those who have money to invest in it or take from it. This provides an incentive for those with money to seek efficient ways of investing it. However, efficient ways of investing are not always good for those involved in the process of production, and is usually at their expense. It's not always good for society as a whole. This is true whether you are the Koch Brothers deciding to invest in a new line of business or Forums Poster foobardog buying a pair of slippers. e: Or perhaps more realistically, when that warehouse worker has a broken leg and needs to clear out their savings to fix it, and then needs to work a second job to pay their debt from that broken leg, and then is exhausted and messing up your order, you can't really consider it negligible. Verge posted:That being said, I wouldn't call Bill Gates or myself a sap on society. We're giving and we're taking. I used your negative term of "sap" to explain the positive thing. Everyone in society is giving and taking, there is not a large contingent of unnecessary people in the sense that they don't contribute or receive from society. A homeless bum gets a dollar from a passerby, and then buys booze before they head off to the shelter. They have taken something from society. But when they bought that booze, they paid taxes on it, just the same as the trust fund kid did when they come in next. They have given to society. It's like traffic. We all are annoyed by other people causing traffic, but we just as much are causing that traffic as any other individual is. Perhaps the SUV on their cell phone has more of an impact, but even me just driving my car does. foobardog fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 21:06
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foobardog posted:These people who you think are negligible aren't. Let's say I ordered some slippers from Amazon. A warehouse worker at Amazon, the UPS delivery driver, the coder who made the software they run on, the business person who got the contract, the VP that got the capital, the weaver who made the fabric, the sewer who sewed the slippers, the picker who picked the cotton, the boat driver that brought them over from China, the dock worker who took it off, the delivery person who got it to Amazon's warehouse. All of these people played a part in me having my slippers. Yes, lots of these people are more replaceable than others. However, if one of them was out for having a broken leg, it may not have affected my pair of slippers, but it may have affected your iPod because a person had to step up and pick up the slack. The only part I really got a problem w/ is your homeless analogy. Yes, yes, he paid taxes on that dollar spent but that would've happened w/ that dollar anyway. All in all, though, that dollar was a gift. Just a gift. There *are* people who take much and contribute nothing (or next to nothing) to society. Sure a lot of disabled people volunteer and poo poo (if you've ever volunteered, you'd be surprised how many disabled 'career-volunteers' you'll meet) but many sit on their asses because that's all they can do. I might consume a lot of resources but I also generate work. What do these people do? I'm not talking about welfare queens, either, I wanna repeat: I know they're unicorns, I'm talking about people who truly can't work because of a disability so we spend resources on them for either eternity waiting for them to die or for months so they can get back to their low-tax, low-income job and contribute very little. If you don't get paid enough to afford medical care, you probably aren't necessary enough to ensure your return to the work force. Remember, also, that if fixing someone's broken leg 2 seconds, I might feel differently but either way, that sandal maker is gonna take some days off work and is liable to be replaced. Yeah, he might find other work, might not, but he could probably disappear off the planet and the tiny dip in production will result in 20 orders being late, all things considered. Not really worth the immense resources it'll cost us to heal him, in comparison.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:24
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I think we'll just have to agree to disagree because for me a life's value is not derived from their labor but is intrinsic to their being. Why does it matter what other people are contributing as long as what's necessary for society to happen continues to happen? I really don't give a poo poo if some guy is playing WoW all day as long as we still produce enough food to feed all of us. E. It's not some zero-sum game where the takers aren't giving back their fair share. Nor do we need some economic equilibrium to strive for where everybody's input/outputs are balanced.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:52
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N. Senada posted:I think we'll just have to agree to disagree because for me a life's value is not derived from their labor but is intrinsic to their being. Actually, I agree w/ you there. I think the end-game strategy should be socialism...once we've become proficient to provide everyone w/ more than they need but the simple fact is...we don't have that. We don't have that many resources to spare. I know we won't run low in my lifetime but until we know that we have excess...why waste it? Regarding life's infinite value you assign it...I ask you...how come you haven't had more kids? Why aren't we running the streets encouraging breeding? Is life only precious once it's conceived (don't worry, I'm not trying to talk about abortion - let's forget that issue for this tangent) or whatever? I think that is the difference between a Libertarian and a Socialist, at heart. Not saying you and I fit into that dichotomy, of course. Whether the value of life can be quantified. I look at lives we have allowed to die and the amount of money we refused to pay to save them and I call that the value of life. Sometimes we regard life as worth as little as $10, sometimes as much as a quarter million. I would love it if health insurance companies were forced by law to also double as life insurance companies so that any time someone, insured, died, their insurance company had to shell out cash, motivating them to keep a person alive as long as it is feasible. When I was in the military, I opted for 1 million in life insurance, rather than the 100k standard. See, I reasoned that if it costed someone more to let me die, that might influence my chance of being sent to my death. Yes, it was a selfish decision: I regret nothing, nor am I ashamed. I was worth, to that insurance company, 1 million. That means they are motivated to not let me die.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:10
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Verge posted:The only part I really got a problem w/ is your homeless analogy. Yes, yes, he paid taxes on that dollar spent but that would've happened w/ that dollar anyway. All in all, though, that dollar was a gift. Just a gift. There *are* people who take much and contribute nothing (or next to nothing) to society. Sure a lot of disabled people volunteer and poo poo (if you've ever volunteered, you'd be surprised how many disabled 'career-volunteers' you'll meet) but many sit on their asses because that's all they can do. I might consume a lot of resources but I also generate work. What do these people do? I'm not talking about welfare queens, either, I wanna repeat: I know they're unicorns, I'm talking about people who truly can't work because of a disability so we spend resources on them for either eternity waiting for them to die or for months so they can get back to their low-tax, low-income job and contribute very little. If you don't get paid enough to afford medical care, you probably aren't necessary enough to ensure your return to the work force. Remember, also, that if fixing someone's broken leg 2 seconds, I might feel differently but either way, that sandal maker is gonna take some days off work and is liable to be replaced. Yeah, he might find other work, might not, but he could probably disappear off the planet and the tiny dip in production will result in 20 orders being late, all things considered. Not really worth the immense resources it'll cost us to heal him, in comparison. You can't prove that taxes was going to be paid on that dollar no matter what. It's likely true, but for all you know it could have gone into a tax haven instead. It could have been burnt right then and there. Gifts are still part of the economy. Even though Black Friday doesn't really balance the books, many retailers are very dependent on these gifts for their business. Additionally, if he had instead used that dollar to buy a garbage picker and collect cans and manage to lift himself up by his bootstraps, you'd not disavow that because it was a gift. The disabled autistic kid that can't stop screaming if the cans in the cupboard aren't lined up perfectly may be the case that allows a researcher to figure out a way to help all autistic people. The disabled person who watches her stories all day may be a font of sanity for her son who can keep working because of it. People's current input into society is not their eternal input from society, it varies a lot. Companies keep failing lines for very long times, often because sometimes they are able to get something good out of it. Amazon finally made a profit just this past year. I'm not exaggerating. They've never made a profit until now! They've made money, and then reinvested that money right into it, spending more than they took in. The classic garage startup only got off the ground after a long period where they were just leeching off their parents. Especially when those kids were able to turn down getting a degree from an ivy league college to focus on it. And yes, one person on that huge list of people may get a broken leg. But another gets a cavity. Another gets a broken arm. Another gets depression. No one is immune from health problems, and a bunch of little failures can add up much quicker than just 20 orders being late. And as I said, the money those people spend on fixing their ailments are money that they could have spent elsewhere in the economy. You're right, sometimes we often are held back by the worst part of a team being so bad that it hurts the rest. However, even the real-life welfare queen doesn't have any power at all to really keep you and I working. It's not what's holding us back, and there's vastly more people who could take the time to open their own business or hold a job if they could just afford to get medical care. On top of that, you can either get rid of the worst, or improve the worst to make up for it. And often improving the worst is much cheaper than improving the best, and usually has greater returns.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:10
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Verge posted:Regarding life's infinite value you assign it...I ask you...how come you haven't had more kids? Why aren't we running the streets encouraging breeding? Is life only precious once it's conceived (don't worry, I'm not trying to talk about abortion - let's forget that issue for this tangent) or whatever? The value of a life is not infinite; all lives share equal value (for me). Maybe that means the same thing for you, I honestly don't know. The thing that motivates me is that we have enough shelter for people not to be homeless (or precariously housed), but we don't. Why don't we and how can resources be mobilized to prevent this unnecessary situation from occurring? We probably agree on a lot of stuff. You probably don't think kids should suffer hunger either. But, for me, the issue isn't that enough people aren't accruing enough value to pay for and maintain the system to raise/deliver food to them but that we, as a society, have decided to make that value impossible for select groups to achieve. Edit: more to your point about value and having kids. My worldview doesn't really encounter human beings having value because value is something you attribute to a commodity and I refuse (for my way of going about the world personally) to assign a dollar amount or any other metric to a human's life because I refuse to accept that there's a point in which a human's life can be less than something. I don't have some spreadsheet where I keep adding +1 to my life sum when I have kids. N. Senada fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 23:37
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foobardog posted:You can't prove that taxes was going to be paid on that dollar no matter what. It's likely true, but for all you know it could have gone into a tax haven instead. It could have been burnt right then and there. Gifts are still part of the economy. Even though Black Friday doesn't really balance the books, many retailers are very dependent on these gifts for their business. Additionally, if he had instead used that dollar to buy a garbage picker and collect cans and manage to lift himself up by his bootstraps, you'd not disavow that because it was a gift. Of course gifts are part of the economy but I just mean that the dollar changed hands without trade. You're nit picking little details, here, don't you think? I think you're right. My methods really do simply have a nicer-sounding way of removing the worst (it sounds so terrible when you say it without a mask) and you scratch for these anecdotes and examples where my method is inefficient because, at the end of the day, you value human life in a way that I don't. N. Senada posted:Edit: more to your point about value and having kids. My worldview doesn't really encounter human beings having value because value is something you attribute to a commodity and I refuse (for my way of going about the world personally) to assign a dollar amount or any other metric to a human's life because I refuse to accept that there's a point in which a human's life can be less than something. I'll admit that life worth is hard to measure and I'll admit that in theory, a human life is always worth more than any hard asset...but let me ask you this...in a world with finite resources, just for hypotheticals, we find a new resource. A chemical, rare and only known to exist in one place, that cures HIV. We have exactly 100 doses of this and we don't know if we can ever find any more. We've tried to synthesize it, we can't. Now before getting into who gets it, I ask you this. Can you concede that the vial holding the 100 doses is worth more than an average single human life? I feel that if you can, we can build from that hypothetical. Remember: that chemical basically represents 100 lives, by my count. Of course we'd never deem it acceptable to kill a man for it but if someone had 2 hostages...one being the vial and one being a man...I'd prefer the vial. I know, weird hypothetical, I just wanna know if you can assign "life-value" to a commodity.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:26
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e: sorry! don't mean to offend by having a discussion with new ideas
woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 03:35
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SedanChair posted:We do. We completely do. Maybe at the end of it you don't have a motorcycle and I don't have a sports car, but it's there. We've run the numbers. There's enough to provide for everybody, no matter how much right-wing media tells you otherwise. Err, my motorcycle is cheaper than a car. Exactly how much quality of life are we talkin' about losing here?
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Dec 3, 2015 03:46
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e: ooh sorry this could be interpreted as a rebuttal.
woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 03:50
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SedanChair posted:e: ooh sorry this could be interpreted as a rebuttal. Forgive my intrusion on your safe space I didn't ask for a safe space. I didn't moan or cry. You're the one backing out right now, not me.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:54
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Verge posted:I didn't ask for a safe space. I didn't moan or cry. You're the one backing out right now, not me. I don't want to break the thread rules. If you'd like to continue this discussion please feel free to post in one of the libertarian threads or start a new thread.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:56
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SedanChair posted:I don't want to break the thread rules. If you'd like to continue this discussion please feel free to post in one of the libertarian threads or start a new thread. Oh, my bad. Right, this is my safe space haha. Oh man, especially since I was helped into seeing Libertarianism is not my ideal, I don't want to be associated with...them... (never did before). I was so confused. Thank you, we'll let this fizzle as it should.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:03
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Edit this stupid kiddie pool poo poo is dumb
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Dec 3, 2015 04:09
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hello i am noted d and d regular foppery, nice 2 meet all of you
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Dec 3, 2015 04:48
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Would you say the recent attacks on expectant mothers who want to have an abortion is a) a sign of right-wingers in decline who therefore become more radical b) a sign of right-wingers who become stronger and take action they wouldn't without large support from the populace or c) none of these, but the deed of a single culprit who would have hit regardless of the political climate?
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Dec 3, 2015 10:49
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lllllllllllllllllll posted:Would you say the recent attacks on expectant mothers who want to have an abortion is d) right wingers who are frustrated by their losses in the culture wars and want to refocus and attack a target they can defeat, such as pregnant women
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Dec 3, 2015 17:16
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So a bit of a) and c) then. I guess that makes sense.
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Dec 3, 2015 18:07
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This is the worst thread made for scared babby's. I'm glad Dogcrash got banned. He was not a good poster. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 4, 2015 16:53
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I think the idea was a good one, or at least had good intentions, even if the execution sucked balls. Edit I nominate myself to replace Dogcrash as overlord of D&D Who What Now fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Dec 4, 2015 |
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Dec 4, 2015 19:08
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Aus tralia and NewZealand.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:22
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What's the best pizza topping ever?
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Dec 7, 2015 15:07
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Cheese, the ur-topping.
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Dec 7, 2015 15:09
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GEExCEE posted:What's the best pizza topping ever? That'd be an awfully subjective question. I think in order to actually encourage debate you'd have to go into the qualities of a topping in order to determine 'bestitude'. Someone that might value salty flavors would suggest anchovies were the best topping while another may base their criterion on something wholly different, such as crispiness, spiciness, etc.
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Dec 7, 2015 15:10
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Who What Now posted:Cheese, the ur-topping. hmm, interesting theory.. I suppose the counterpoint could be "sauce," but another axis of argument i'll take here is to further clarify my original question by specifying both sauce and cheese not as toppings because, although they lie on "top" of the crust, they are integral to the pizza's identity as such and without them it would just be bread. I am assuming here we deal originally with the platonic form of the "Pizza Margherita," and that all further extravagances heaped atop such a comestible be termed "Toppings."
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Dec 7, 2015 15:14
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GEExCEE posted:What's the best pizza topping ever? edit: sorry thought this was chat thread pangstrom fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Dec 7, 2015 |
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Dec 7, 2015 16:10
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Are burritos sandwiches?
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Dec 7, 2015 16:40
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a cat irl posted:Are burritos sandwiches? In the great state of Massachusetts, no: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/11/10/massachusetts-judge-settles-dispute-by-ruling-burrito-is-not-sandwich.html As a sandwich liberal, I say yes. Pizzas are also open faced sandwiches, and hard tacos are crispy sandwiches.
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Dec 7, 2015 17:03
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I'd argue that the minimal requirement for something to be declared a sandwich is the placement of non-bread food objects on or between two slices of bread. Pizzas, tacos, and burritos are thus disqualified because they are served on a single grain disk. Eggs Benedict, however, is a sandwich.
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Dec 9, 2015 07:39
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Wales Grey posted:I'd argue that the minimal requirement for something to be declared a sandwich is the placement of non-bread food objects on or between two slices of bread. Pizzas, tacos, and burritos are thus disqualified because they are served on a single grain disk. Eggs Benedict, however, is a sandwich. Topology can get confusing. What about an egg burrito laced with cheese then another grain plane around it making it technically a burrito within a burrito? Do the planes have to be horizontal? What if the taco is broken or what about a double-decker taco, adding confusion such as in the double-burrito. Also, what if I put 1 pizza on another pizza and what of the Big Mac? Biscuits with jam further confuses the situation because they can either be classified as a taco or sandwich, depending on how you cut them. Also, what if a sandwich has toppings, such as 2 pizza slices that are right-side up? These are all important factors in carb-entrenched edibles classification.
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Dec 9, 2015 07:49
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Wales Grey posted:I'd argue that the minimal requirement for something to be declared a sandwich is the placement of non-bread food objects on or between two slices of bread. Pizzas, tacos, and burritos are thus disqualified because they are served on a single grain disk. Eggs Benedict, however, is a sandwich. So subs and hoagies only count as sandwiches if you cut all the way through the bread? Leaving a hinge attached or digging out a wedge and filling it make then non--sandwiches? As an example, Subway used to serve sandwiches when they used the triangle cut in the 90s, but since they switched to the newer (hinge) cut they are no longer sandwiches under your scheme.
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Dec 9, 2015 07:55
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It depends on the intent of the eater. Hotdogs eat sideways are hotdog sandwiches.
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Dec 9, 2015 14:15
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Is there a thread to discuss Identity Politics, Student Activism or 'Social Justice' ?
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Dec 9, 2015 23:04
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I definitely agree that 1 or 2 pieces of bread can both make a sandwich. Even if it isn't a "traditional", "western" sandwich, one piece of bread could still be a "wrap", or of course an open-faced sandwich. Additionally, Spaghetti Sandwiches are a delicious treat. a cat irl fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 23:10
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moller posted:So subs and hoagies only count as sandwiches if you cut all the way through the bread? Leaving a hinge attached or digging out a wedge and filling it make then non--sandwiches? I'd be fine with calling anything that's bread-with-toppings-in-or-on-it a sandwich; but in the true D&D spirit I'll say that hinge-cut loaves are not "traditional" sandwiches, but are instead open-faced calzones or perhaps an extremely unusual sort of pocket entree in the vein of stuffed pita. After all, if we allow breads that aren't cut all the way through or hollowed out to count as sandwiches then that opens the door for bread bowl soups to be considered sandwiches.
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Dec 11, 2015 09:41
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Frosted Flake posted:Is there a thread to discuss Identity Politics, Student Activism or 'Social Justice' ? If you find one let me know; I'd love to smash some classical PC frat kids.
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Dec 11, 2015 11:34
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Frosted Flake posted:Is there a thread to discuss Identity Politics, Student Activism or 'Social Justice' ? In the spirit of giving information I'd like to inform you that D&D welcomes new threads; find some links that explore that topic, write down your thoughts, perhaps with some questions you'd like to see discussed, and post your own thread. There's no need to find one, just post.
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Dec 12, 2015 02:02
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I thought Jeb Lund made a pretty comprehensive argument about what precisely constitutes a sandwich. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/03/is-a-hot-dog-a-sandwich-nature-america
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Dec 12, 2015 02:45
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Sharkie posted:In the spirit of giving information I'd like to inform you that D&D welcomes new threads; find some links that explore that topic, write down your thoughts, perhaps with some questions you'd like to see discussed, and post your own thread. There's no need to find one, just post. And link me to it so I can violate some safe spaces in a sanctioned killzone.
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Dec 12, 2015 07:10
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