|
Adenoid Dan posted:There was a Palestinian child stabbed to death in the US, does this suggest a peak of any sort of terrorism or is it just a sparkling hate crime when a non-muslim does it?
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 23:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 19:19 |
|
|
Nah I've seen enough decades of pontificating about the uniqueness of "Muslim terrorism"
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 23:44
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:That's nothing new! What comes next is also relevant: George Orwell posted:All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage – torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians – which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 23:44
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Do you understand that Israel has been actually dehumanizing Palestinians for decades, and as a result of that, they see Palestinians as less valuable? quote:Also the post you were responding to isn't even talking about Israelis as a people, but rather about Israel as a state. Please don't conflate the two. There is nothing in that post to indicate it's not talking about Israelis as a people and plenty of discussion about specific classes of Israeli people (pilots). It is a perfectly reasonable reading to take it as Israelis as people. Perhaps more careful use of language would be in order when referring to Israelis.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 23:50
|
|
|
Adenoid Dan posted:Nah I've seen enough decades of pontificating about the uniqueness of "Muslim terrorism" Ok fine, I'll bite. You... don't think there is something unique about the the pattern of terrorism committed by Islamic extremists?
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 23:51
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Do you understand that Israel has been actually dehumanizing Palestinians for decades, and as a result of that, they see Palestinians as less valuable? You're conflating the two when you talk about Israel as a singular entity ("Israel has been...") and in the same sentence as a group of people ("they see..."). Pvt. Parts posted:Ok fine, I'll bite. You... don't think there is something unique about the the pattern of terrorism committed by Islamic extremists? I'm not the one you asked, but I don't think there's anything too special here. When you have wide swaths of young men who consider themselves permanently alienated from their societies, and who are invited to give their lives meaning by perpetrating spectacular violence against those societies, some of them will take it. My intuition is that the psychology of the man who killed those Swedes in Belgium is probably pretty comparable to the psychology of Baruch Goldstein or the Pittsburgh Synagogue shooter. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Oct 16, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 23:54
|
|
|
Pvt. Parts posted:Ok fine, I'll bite. You... don't think there is something unique about the the pattern of terrorism committed by Islamic extremists? Not in any way that's useful to consider separately from, to choose a completely random example, supporting phalangist (Christian) militias massacring civilians or making a fake terror group and car bombing people in Lebanon.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 23:55
|
|
|
Pvt. Parts posted:Ok fine, I'll bite. You... don't think there is something unique about the the pattern of terrorism committed by Islamic extremists? I would say no. You could maybe say there is something unique about the pattern of religious terrorism but that ain't exclusive to Muslims in any way shape or form and I think you'd have a pretty good viewpoint for the idea that a lot of white supremist terrorism has a lot of overlap with religious terrorism.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2023 23:59
|
|
|
https://www.reuters.com/world/canada-urges-citizens-leave-lebanon-while-flights-are-available-2023-10-16/ Pretty balanced remarks by Trudeau.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:01
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:01
|
|
|
Pvt. Parts posted:Ok fine, I'll bite. You... don't think there is something unique about the the pattern of terrorism committed by Islamic extremists? You do? More than the idea that Islamic extremists are more likely to be successful in gaining ground due to the instability of the middle east? If your metrics is something like "makes videos of soldiers cutting the heads off of their perceived enemies" then I have bad news for you about some stuff going down in eastern Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:01
|
|
|
Adenoid Dan posted:Since at least the 1930s the intent has always been to remove Palestinians from the land. IIRC this isn't true, maybe there were extremist groups who thought this way but they would be a fringe minority. The Zionist movement overall between late 19th century and 1948 was a widely diverse movement as diverse as say, modern day leftism in general and ethnically cleansing Palestine wasn't a view held by anywhere near the majority; probably not even the majority of the minority.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:03
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:IIRC this isn't true, maybe there were extremist groups who thought this way but they would be a fringe minority. The Zionist movement overall between late 19th century and 1948 was a widely diverse movement as diverse as say, modern day leftism in general and ethnically cleansing Palestine wasn't a view held by anywhere near the majority; probably not even the majority of the minority. For more detail on this, I'd recommend reading the ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe. It's pretty well documented.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:06
|
|
|
Adenoid Dan posted:For more detail on this, I'd recommend reading the ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe. It's pretty well documented. I believe the onus is on you to provide specific evidence in support of your claim and not to gesture vaguely at some book whose credibility might very well be on the same level of Jung Chang. An example of a credible source might be a quote from an officially passed resolution by the World Zionist Congress for instance. e to add, a quick google confirms my suspicions that Pappe is probably not a very good source. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Oct 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:20
|
|
|
Fact checked by Reddit! Lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:30
|
|
|
CuddleCryptid posted:You do? More than the idea that Islamic extremists are more likely to be successful in gaining ground due to the instability of the middle east? ImpAtom posted:I would say no. You could maybe say there is something unique about the pattern of religious terrorism but that ain't exclusive to Muslims in any way shape or form and I think you'd have a pretty good viewpoint for the idea that a lot of white supremist terrorism has a lot of overlap with religious terrorism. Adenoid Dan posted:Not in any way that's useful to consider separately from, to choose a completely random example, supporting phalangist (Christian) militias massacring civilians or making a fake terror group and car bombing people in Lebanon. Civilized Fishbot posted:I'm not the one you asked, but I don't think there's anything too special here. When you have wide swaths of young men who consider themselves permanently alienated from their societies, and who are invited to give their lives meaning by perpetrating spectacular violence against those societies, some of them will take it. There are some pretty obviously unique patterns in the religious fundamentalism, fervor, tactics, scope, popular support, and propagandizing style of what we call Islamic or Islamist terrorism. Any honest interaction with the forces working (globally) to disrupt the Enlightenment values which have brought unrivaled wellbeing and wealth to those who have espoused them would make this rather clear.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:30
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:IIRC this isn't true, maybe there were extremist groups who thought this way but they would be a fringe minority. The Zionist movement overall between late 19th century and 1948 was a widely diverse movement as diverse as say, modern day leftism in general and ethnically cleansing Palestine wasn't a view held by anywhere near the majority; probably not even the majority of the minority. Are you including Zionists who wanted to establish a nation somewhere other than Mandatory Palestine in that rubric? Because I don't see how anyone seeking to establish an ethnostate centered on Jerusalem thought they were going to do so without ethnic cleansing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:31
|
|
|
"Conquest via labor" is an easy example of ethnic cleansing that's heavily documented. It was an explicit strategy with the intent to push the locals out. Early Zionists (we're talking the very beginning of the 20th century, still the Ottoman Empire, David Ben-Gurion, days) backed by foreign capital, would build businesses and then only hire Jewish settlers in order to create ethnic enclaves. Being backed by foreign investment, they could also pay much higher wages, and those settlers prospered while the locals were forced to work for extreme poverty wages or go unemployed entirely. The express purpose was to force the native population out by making it economically unviable for them to live in certain areas.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:35
|
|
|
e: wrong thread
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:38
|
|
|
Terrorism is not the result of conflict with "Enlightenment values" which in turn were not what made those countries rich (it was the colonialism and slavery).
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:49
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:53
|
|
|
mannerup posted:the fact you have different sects within 'islamic' terrorism as well makes this distinction not useful; ISIS considers Hamas to be apostates for example Notably I've started seeing a bunch of commercials on Youtube, talking about the terror attack in Israel and ending with "Hamas = ISIS"
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 00:59
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:Are you including Zionists who wanted to establish a nation somewhere other than Mandatory Palestine in that rubric? Because I don't see how anyone seeking to establish an ethnostate centered on Jerusalem thought they were going to do so without ethnic cleansing. I don't think this follows no. Jamwad Hilder posted:"Conquest via labor" is an easy example of ethnic cleansing that's heavily documented. It was an explicit strategy with the intent to push the locals out. Early Zionists (we're talking the very beginning of the 20th century, still the Ottoman Empire, David Ben-Gurion, days) backed by foreign capital, would build businesses and then only hire Jewish settlers in order to create ethnic enclaves. Being backed by foreign investment, they could also pay much higher wages, and those settlers prospered while the locals were forced to work for extreme poverty wages or go unemployed entirely. The express purpose was to force the native population out by making it economically unviable for them to live in certain areas. I think this is also a stretch, gentrification isn't ethnic cleansing and seems like a conspiracy theory to me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:00
|
|
|
Adenoid Dan posted:Terrorism is not the result of conflict with "Enlightenment values" which in turn were not what made those countries rich (it was the colonialism and slavery). I'm not implying it's the result of conflict with Enlightenment values, just that Islamic/Islamist terrorism is one of many forces in their opposition, and a unique one at that in modern times. As for what made "those" countries rich, I'm not going to continue engaging with you because it is too far off I/P. But to think that the countries which managed to do colonialism and slavery the best are now, thus, the most rich is such one-dimensional thinking as to be laughable. You should be embarrassed. Use your heart for lovin' and your brain for everything else. Serotoning fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Oct 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:01
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I think this is also a stretch, gentrification isn't ethnic cleansing and seems like a conspiracy theory to me. Well then I don't think you know what the definition of ethnic cleansing is. The term has very heavy connotations and is sometimes used interchangeably with "genocide" - but they're different things. Genocide is seeking to destroy a people. Ethnic cleansing is trying to force a group out in order to create an ethnic/religious enclave. That could involve violence and terror, but it could also be economic gentrification, as you put it, if the express goal is to price out everyone who is not a part of your ethnic/religious group.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:08
|
|
|
mannerup posted:I do agree with your point that just telling somebody "read this book trust me" is lazy and not constructive but the problem with just google searching a name is there is a long track record of their arguments in the Journal of Palestine Studies (Norman Finkelstein even got involved at one point in response to Benny Morris). I was kind of curious and looked these up, or at least two of them. The Journal for Peace Research was paywalled but the Arab Studies Quarterly wasn't. In the review offered up in the later the author included his own comments about arguments supporting Pappé's work. Two of which were the British effectively ruled Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt at that time and that the British "centerpiece policy" was the fulfillment of Balfour Declaration.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:09
|
|
|
wins32767 posted:There is nothing in that post to indicate it's not talking about Israelis as a people and plenty of discussion about specific classes of Israeli people (pilots). It is a perfectly reasonable reading to take it as Israelis as people. Perhaps more careful use of language would be in order when referring to Israelis. Possibly the Israeli people (as a collective whole) should stop repeatedly electing politicians that direct the state to enact increasingly cruel apartheid policies? Because as it stands, you might reasonably assume that those policies reflect the majority will of the Israeli citizenry through agreement or apathy and draw your own conclusions from that. Madkal posted:Considering that there are dozens of dozens of different parties, or the fact that Israel has had several elections in the last 4 years maybe people with a bit of knowledge of the region could see that the government's policies don't reflect the people and the fact that no one party can form a majority government without having to form a coalition with several other parties might also reflect that it isn't as simple as all Israelis are just voting for one evil right wing party. It might be reasonably assumed that the political situation is a bit more complex. Not everyone is voting for "one evil right wing party". But voting for a party that is willing to go along with apartheid in order to govern is hardly an improvement. That's where the apathy I referred to comes in. Not enough Israeli citizens see the treatment of the Palestinian enclaves as a deal breaker to vote primarily on that issue. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Oct 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:25
|
|
|
Brucolac posted:Israel does still have frequent and regular elections, last I checked? Considering that there are dozens of dozens of different parties, or the fact that Israel has had several elections in the last 4 years maybe people with a bit of knowledge of the region could see that the government's policies don't reflect the people and the fact that no one party can form a majority government without having to form a coalition with several other parties might also reflect that it isn't as simple as all Israelis are just voting for one evil right wing party. It might be reasonably assumed that the political situation is a bit more complex.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:30
|
|
|
CeeJee posted:He predicts the dropping of these 'five thousand pound JDAM' bombs, which is more then twice the weight of the JDAM's known to exist, will begin Sunday or Monday so we'll know soon enough. GBU-72 was shipped to Israel last year.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:30
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:By the way, I have an earnest request for Israeli and Hebrew-literate goons in the thread: Offering a bounty of a free av change to anyone who knows Hebrew and can answer this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:35
|
|
|
Jamwad Hilder posted:Well then I don't think you know what the definition of ethnic cleansing is. The term has very heavy connotations and is sometimes used interchangeably with "genocide" - but they're different things. Genocide is seeking to destroy a people. Ethnic cleansing is trying to force a group out in order to create an ethnic/religious enclave. That could involve violence and terror, but it could also be economic gentrification, as you put it, if the express goal is to price out everyone who is not a part of your ethnic/religious group. I think this would be obviously a very unclear usage of the term, one in which most people I don't think would agree with as a definition; for most people the reason why genocide and ethnic cleansing are interchangeable is that they necessitate physical violence (i.e not violence through capitalism) as part of the means. And with a few additional seconds of critical thought I think it should be readily apparent why no one would want to open the :worms: that is that definition, the idea of "any large amount of people moving into an area and buying land" is ethnic cleansing, because oh boy it sure seems to have implications from where I'm standing that I don't think you would agree with.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:36
|
|
|
Well the definition I used is a paraphrased version of how the UN defines it, so I don't know what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:44
|
|
|
Okay, can you then give an example for how one might establish an ethnostate within an already populated region without engaging in ethnic cleansing?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:44
|
|
|
Pvt. Parts posted:Ok fine, I'll bite. You... don't think there is something unique about the the pattern of terrorism committed by Islamic extremists? Pvt. Parts posted:There are some pretty obviously unique patterns in the religious fundamentalism, fervor, tactics, scope, popular support, and propagandizing style of what we call Islamic or Islamist terrorism. Any honest interaction with the forces working (globally) to disrupt the Enlightenment values which have brought unrivaled wellbeing and wealth to those who have espoused them would make this rather clear. Without any intention of being rude: No, not at all. Put into more words: 'islamic terrorism' is completely benign in nature compared to other guerilla groups seeking to affect change. The Serbian nationalist who shot the archduke and the hijackers who flew a plane into the WTC largely share the same formula in their strife; a large state agitating them to the point that they adopt an ideology that directs them to enact violent change. The proliferation of 'islamic terrorists' is purely a result of our multi-decade long adventures in the region fostering multiple groups with an invested disdain for the West. If we were to have spent the last four decades assaulting Europe in the same way that we have the Middle East, we'd be talking about 'catholic terrorists' right now. In fact, I'd argue that we had an incredibly blunt hand in shaping our adversaries, considering the kind of leaders we deposed. We're simply less open to bragging about it than Netanyahu. Raenir Salazar posted:I believe the onus is on you to provide specific evidence in support of your claim and not to gesture vaguely at some book whose credibility might very well be on the same level of Jung Chang. An example of a credible source might be a quote from an officially passed resolution by the World Zionist Congress for instance. With all due respect, I hope you can appreciate the irony in second-guessing a historian's credentials while deferring to u/ghostofherzi, a poster on r/AskHistorians who is currently arguing that the Nakba was a pre-state crime by a disbanded group and therefore bearing no shame on Israel.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:45
|
|
|
You don't have to look to the Revisionist historians to find that some streams of Zionism (and it turned out the leading ones) at best wanted to dominate and subdue the Arab population and at worst wanted to expel them. Just google any of the founding fathers of Israel and the term "population transfers" and you'll find what you need. Jabotinksy, 1939 - "There is no choice: the Arabs must make room for the Jews of Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs." Jabotinsky, 1940 - ""The world has become accustomed to the idea of mass migrations and has become fond of them.", "Hitler--- as odious as he is to us---has given this idea a good name in the world." Chaim Weizmann, 1930 - 'Chaim Weizmann tentatively advanced the idea of an Arab transfer in private discussions with British officials but met with no support for this idea. It was not until the British government sent the Peel Commission in November 1936 to investigate the causes of unrest in Palestine that Weizmann and his colleagues began to lobby actively, but still discreetly, for a "voluntary" transfer of displaced Arab farmers to Transjordan.' https://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/It...%20this%20idea. Ben Gurion, 1937 - "The Commission had recommended partition into a Jewish State and Arab State, together with a population transfer of the 225,000 Arabs from the land allocated to the Jewish State.[3][4] Ben-Gurion stated his belief that partition would be just the beginning" (the Ben Gurion letter is where you get Revisionists squabbling over whether one of the masterminds of the Nakba really thought about it doing it a decade earlier or not) etc. There's a vast litany of this stuff. You can quibble all you like about the intention for it being as "voluntary" as possible but the fact that there were people in Palestine wasn't lost on anybody *decades* before 1947. The Peel Commission recommended it! There was no meaningful part of early 20th C Zionism that sought a state *and* rejected the idea of "population transfers", voluntary or not.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 01:53
|
|
|
Jamwad Hilder posted:Well the definition I used is a paraphrased version of how the UN defines it, so I don't know what to tell you. Is it against international law to purchase land? The UN definition very specifically says "contrary to international law". Zulily Zoetrope posted:Okay, can you then give an example for how one might establish an ethnostate within an already populated region without engaging in ethnic cleansing? Buying land legally and moving there is not ethnic cleansing so there we go. Is it ethnic cleansing for Chinese immigrants to displace the original inhabitants of the places they end up congregating to and giving preferential treatment to other immigrants coming later?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 02:00
|
|
|
Well that's a load off. https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1713811260662255910?t=coQAwXa_0p-tHNloC482CA&s=19
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 02:01
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 02:04
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1714074816272089510 https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1714076759963136319 I'll believe them giving humanitarian aid when I see it
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 02:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 19:19 |
|
|
mannerup posted:the actual video is so much worse, she is trying to stonewall her and then invokes the “do YOU have children? What if it happened to THEM?” card on the host This has come up again and again and it's a bizarre tact to take for a politician. It's an admission that the war is based in blind rage, and demanding that they be excused for firing into a crowd of people. Half of civilization is built around preventing this exact thing from happening. The courts might be corrupt but at the very least they tend to slow down the bodies, as there is recourse for someone killing your kid other than drawing a gun and immediate blowing them away along with six people that were standing behind them. There *should* be international laws that act in the same way, but we all know they're dead on arrival. It's reasonable to want revenge. It's not reasonable that no one has stepped in to stop it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 02:12
|
|