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The text of the UNSC resolution that was adopted instead of the US proposal is now available here. It is extremely straightforward by comparison. It demands an immediate ceasefire lasting through the Ramadan, and also demands the release of all hostages on both sides. Since it doesn't contain all the dumb little jabs at Hamas and the Houthis the US threw in theirs, and most importantly actually demands a ceasefire instead of just handwaving about diplomatic efforts, I think Russia and China were justified in favoring this one.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:10
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Kalit specifically has been pushing blindingly obvious (to anyone else, it seems) israeli lies and propaganda, albeit laundered through Fortunately it is much more productive to this thread about Israel/Palestine to take the tiktok rage at face value and talk about that instead of the people chained to tank hulls. Because otherwise I'd be tempted to think it was a reasonably successful suicide bombing of the nascent conversation of evidence of Israel doing something viscerally grotesque and war crimey. And, of course, that suspicion would be bad for the discourse.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:21
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Sephyr posted:If Israel ever flips its geopolitical support to Russia or China (astronimically low odds, granted, but stranger things have happened), the US establishment will be dusting off this genocide, Sabra and Chatila, and likely even the USS Liberty incident to call them traitorous vipers. Argas posted:Do France and Germany have similar motivations as the US for backing Israel?
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Mar 28, 2024 16:25
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Germany specifically does not ever want to be seen as going against the Jewish state due to their infamous crime against the Jewish people. Other than that, yeah, I'd say so - some mixture of Israel being a useful strategic ally, Hamas slam-dunking its international reputation into the garbage by performing mass atrocities against civilians, the populace being generally unsympathetic towards radical Islamists due to attacks on their own countries, narratives around Israel being a way for Jews to stand up and prevent genocides from happening to them again etc. A less charitable view is that for some, Israel neatly solves the Jewish Question in Europe, and provides justification to hate on Muslims. Alternative für Deutschland is pro-Israel, and they're not the only right wing extremist party in Europe to support Israel. If this were all out of Holocaust guilt, I think Germany would not be persecuting dissenting Jewish voices the way they are, an example of which was posted in this thread just last page. Here's a recent opinion piece in Al Jazeera discussing this phenomenon https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/2/27/german-guiltwashing-in-times-of-genocide. I'd add that the reasons you're giving for support of Israel could as well have been written by an IDF propagandist: Hamas doesn't have an international reputation to uphold, the entire Western propaganda apparatus had painted them as evil baby-eating terrorists even before these attacks. As pro-Palestine demonstrations show, plenty of people in the West are able to distinguish between "radical Islamists" and all Palestinians, unlike what you seem to be doing here. I doubt most Westerners know any details about what Hamas believes, and I really don't think any knowledge a few people here and there might have, or any mistaken association between Hamas and terrorist attacks in Europe, is a driving force for pro-Israel sentiment. Esran fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 16:45
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Fortunately it is much more productive to this thread about Israel/Palestine to take the tiktok rage at face value and talk about that instead of the people chained to tank hulls. Because otherwise I'd be tempted to think it was a reasonably successful suicide bombing of the nascent conversation of evidence of Israel doing something viscerally grotesque and war crimey. And, of course, that suspicion would be bad for the discourse. Yeah, that this derail (in reaction to a video that made Israel look bad) completely stopped conversation and was started by someone who doesn't like things that make Israel or Biden look bad is completely coincidencental. Don't read into that. Also coincidental: backseat modding from said person saying that they know that they're breaking the rules and instead of a probation they... get what they want. Don't read into that, either. The Sean fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 17:06
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Fortunately it is much more productive to this thread about Israel/Palestine to take the tiktok rage at face value and talk about that instead of the people chained to tank hulls. Because otherwise I'd be tempted to think it was a reasonably successful suicide bombing of the nascent conversation of evidence of Israel doing something viscerally grotesque and war crimey. And, of course, that suspicion would be bad for the discourse. I find video links without context really unhelpful because I mostly read SA on my phone and watching a video, especially with audio, isn't something I can do. It's a part of the conversation that I can no longer follow. If I wanted to/was able to get content in that format I'd be on TikTok not SA. Implying that the people who have this preference on a loving forum are *actually* trying to cover for war crimes is a dumb and toxic thing to do, and part of why this thread is such a pit. If you want to accuse posters of downplaying genocide or war crimes, quote them and do it rather than this pathetic vague poo poo. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 20:22
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I find video links without context really unhelpful because I mostly read SA on my phone and watching a video, especially with audio, isn't something I can do. It's a part of the conversation that I can no longer follow. I think this thread is not made less of a pit by blatantly lying about what other people have said in this manner. I don't really see the point either, you know that it's really easy to check what previous posts were saying, right? The few people who mentioned anything at all about videos previously were just asking for a short description so they don't have to blind click links. You're the first person to express any kind of concern about being unable to watch video. None of what was discussed over the last few pages is related to being on your phone. What Kalit said (and what Stalin is responding to) was not "Please post a summary alongside the Tiktok link, I prefer text". The objection was related to proper sourcing, not the media format. So this quote:Implying that the people who have this preference on a loving forum are *actually* trying to cover for war crimes is a dumb and toxic thing to do, and part of why this thread is such a pit. is just you inventing a guy to be mad at. Esran fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 20:32
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I find video links without context really unhelpful because I mostly read SA on my phone and watching a video, especially with audio, isn't something I can do. It's a part of the conversation that I can no longer follow. You have completely misunderstood what is going on. No one is saying "if you don't watch tiktok you're covering for war crimes". The issue is Kalit's dismissal of anything that's not coming from one of his approved sources, which judging by his post history in this thread seems to be a handful of blatantly biased but "respectable" western corporate news services, as being "disinformation" or otherwise a priori compromised, is, in fact, running cover for genocide and war crimes.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:42
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Let's have some content... https://aje.io/rsaoob?update=2804475 ICJ orders Israel to stop preventing ‘delivery of urgently needed’ aid quote:The International Court of Justice issued new provisional measures on Gaza as part of the case brought by South Africa on the prevention of genocide, indicating that Israel must submit a report to the court on “all measures taken” to abide by the order within a month. While I somehow doubt the same genocidal state that's allowing its heavily propagandized and most bloodthirsty citizens to set up bouncy castles and hold parties celebrating the genocide at border crossings in order to block desperately needed aid is going to abide by this, it's nice to see the wheels of international justice begining to turn against Israel.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:45
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The Sean fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 20:54
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Utter bullshit to probe Quantumcat like that without any apology after falsely accusing him of genocidal rhetoric while dipshits like Kalit are free to poo poo up the thread relentlessly. Just transparently running cover for genocide that is actually happening. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 28, 2024 21:02
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lmfao that probation. How are the moderators so poo poo at this? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 28, 2024 21:05
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Probation aside, QC just posted "anyways, here's some content to discuss" which is supposed to be what mods are trying to achieve environment-wise here and instead the thread spent most of the day arguing with the one guy who doesn't like tiktok (well, really just anything not promoting Israel--but tiktok was the specific angle). Reminds me of something GJB told me like a year ago: "We have lost an awful lot of people who would contribute more effort and expertise than you, or I, ever will. I would like you to make effortposts. I'm worried you, and others, will not." Wonder why we're losing people. The Sean fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 21:11
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just permaban Quantumcat if you're so loving thin skinned that you can't help but hammer on the probe button for them having the absolute temerity to call you on an absolute dogshit probe that wrongfully accused them of genocide denial. Just absolute poo poo awful mod work. Leave it to someone else if you're going to have a tantrum whenever someone rightfully calls you out on doing a bad job.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:11
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I'm very comfortable with those probes, and if you want to ask about them feel free to PM me. And if you want to complain about my modding, feel free to PM Koos. But the I/P thread is not going to be the venue for it.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:15
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Baronash posted:I'm very comfortable with those probes Well there's your problem. Heads up, you can't PM Koos. Yawgmoft fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 21:26
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Isn't private messaging a paid feature on these forums? That seems kind of lovely to require people pay to complain about a moderation decision, and probating people if they don't have access to that feature and complain in other venues. From a quick skim if I'm understanding it right Esran also doesn't have the PM feature so saying "just PM me" in a probe reason seems kind of disingenuous. I'd have PMed you this but I'm not going to spend  to do so. Probe me for this one if you need to I guess.Quantum Cat posted:ICJ orders Israel to stop preventing ‘delivery of urgently needed’ aid I was curious and dug into the case a bit more. quote:The court also adopted by a 15-1 vote an order to “ensure with immediate effect that [the Israeli] military does not commit acts which constitute a violation of any of the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza as a protected group under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, including by preventing, through any action, the delivery of urgently needed humanitarian assistance”. The vote against was from an Israeli judge, unsurprisingly.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:27
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Germany's position towards Israel makes a lot more sense if you consider Israel as a willing partner in Germany's project to expel their Jewish population, which did not end after the war. When you learn that: West Germany right after the war heavily pressured their remaining Jewish population to leave for Israel. Germany gave reparations for all of the Jewish wealth and property stolen during the war, but they gave it directly to Israel, and a sum much less than the actual value stolen. Many prominent Nazis went on the be in positions of power in NATO and other European institutions. Zionists at the time were working with Germany to try and get as many Jews to Israel as possible. It begins to make sense why Germany is persecuting Jewish people for not supporting Israel. They do not want Germany to be a place for Jewish people to live, and that goal lines up perfectly with Israel's. It's also a great exscuse to crack down on their Muslim population.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:29
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Those are some big accusations against Germany there, which I've never really heard of. Anywhere we can read about that? The reparations money did go to individuals effected by the holocaust, this much I know. Germany also readily gives citizenships to Jews whose ancestors' German citizenships was taken away from them which isn't super in line with what you're suggesting.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:40
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kiminewt posted:Those are some big accusations against Germany there, which I've never really heard of. Anywhere we can read about that? I can contribute and tell you that Germany absolutely did a poo poo job of de-Nazification, to the point it was obviously a PR effort moreso than an effort to root out an ideological tendency. Convenient scientists and administrators didn't get de-Nazified, they got golden tickets to the US or other allied nations, or had their records sealed so they could be reliable administrators who were ideologically guaranteed anti-communists, which was more important than anything to the West at that point. Germany has had a former president and a former chancellor, both former Nazis. They had a finance minister who was a former SA member. Gerhard Schroeder, a name some of us might be familiar with--former Nazi. Hell, they had a minister for Displaced Persons who was a former Nazi because irony was apparently illegal post-war. And don't even get into the postwar shenanigans former Nazis got up to. Israel literally hired Nazi war criminals: https://newlinesmag.com/review/the-nazi-fugitives-hired-by-israel/ Postwar Germany was whitewashed. We needed them to be staunch anticommunists way more than we needed them to actually root out fascism. So that particular claim is rock-solid IMO.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:49
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Esran posted:lmfao that probation. How are the moderators so poo poo at this?
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Mar 28, 2024 22:10
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selec posted:I can contribute and tell you that Germany absolutely did a poo poo job of de-Nazification, to the point it was obviously a PR effort moreso than an effort to root out an ideological tendency. Convenient scientists and administrators didn't get de-Nazified, they got golden tickets to the US or other allied nations, or had their records sealed so they could be reliable administrators who were ideologically guaranteed anti-communists, which was more important than anything to the West at that point. This isn't to my understanding a very hollistically accurate assessment of the denazification process; basically whatever the failures it isn't really accurate to suggest it was because they needed anti-communists in positions of power. Just as how the Soviets likewise weren't exactly in need of staunch anti-communists either when they made many of the same compromises; ultimately the issue is after 12 years in power "Nazis" were in every part of German civil society and full denazification wouldn't have resulted in a functioning civil society. Cyrano4747 who iirc is a historian who speaks/reads German and did a lot of research in German archives and did a lot of research has some interesting write ups regarding the process for both sides of the Iron Curtain here and if you search for denazification in the thread you can find a number of other indepth posts on the topic and in particular here. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 22:11
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One take I've seen floating around is that the postwar (east) German viewpoint that the Holocaust, although bad, was essentially successful at removing Jews from Germany to the extent that there is an ambient cultural "understanding" that Germany is not a home for Jews. Their "proper" place is elsewhere, ie Israel, which is a sentiment that Zionists have always supported and reinforced. Were it to ever happen that Jewish people en masse were forced out of occupied Palestine it would put conservative Germans in a very uncomfortable place with regards to their sense of Holocaust-related guilt and also their hatred of immigrants. Another, which comes from a Jewish friend of mine who lived and worked in Germany for almost a decade, is that to a lot of Germans a genocide conducted by Jews (conflated with/represented by israel) would absolve a lot of the guilt that Germans hold about the Holocaust but really want to stop feeling burdened with. Essentially a "See? Everyone does a genocide sooner or later. Now we can leave it in the past", or something to that extent, so they don't just want to support israel, they want the Zionists to successfully ethnically cleanse Palestine.
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Mar 28, 2024 22:17
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Just to clarify, Gerhard Schröder, the chancellor of Germany from 1998 to 2005, was born in 1944 and was not in fact a nazi. Gerhard Schröder, who held various ministerial positions from 1953 to 1969, was actually a member of NSDAP until he left the party in 1941. Effectiveness of denazification aside, Germany paid compensations directly to Jewish victims of the Holocaust (over 63 billion euros), not just reparations to the state of Israel. Germany also had a huge Jewish immigration programme that attracted hundreds of thousands of Jews, primarily from ex-Soviet republics. Germany obviously still struggles with atoning for its role in the biggest atrocity of the 20th century and far-right ideas are unfortunately far from dead there, but to say that its support of Israel is somehow primarily driven by anti-Semitism and nazi ideology is ludicrous.
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Mar 28, 2024 22:17
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I think it’s safer to say that Germany has a very confused and incoherent understanding of what its role should be. If you’re freezing the bank accounts of a Jewish organization, and demanding a list of its members in 2024, because of Israel’s genocide in Gaza, you are maybe in a state of confusion and desperate thrashing. https://euobserver.com/world/158293 It’s wild as hell over there right now, just completely drunk on ideology.
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Mar 28, 2024 22:46
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It's as confused as any other country whose establishment opposes BDS under the mistaken assumption that the state of Israel unconditionally represents Jews world-wide in some way. There was a similar case several years ago when a different bank was under fire for providing services to a Jewish anti-Zionist org. https://www.sozialbank.de/news-even...the-middle-east
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Mar 28, 2024 22:58
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From a bit ago, sorry i wasnt here then: The admins are often willing to hand out pm access if we ask precisely for this sort of reason but also there's an adminwide email address listed... somewhere. E: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3809308 Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 23:17
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Goatse James Bond posted:From a bit ago, sorry i wasnt here then: A post stating that you are not advocating genocide in spite of what a probe reason says is not an unreasonable response from someone to clarify their position, otherwise you have no ability to refute accusations being dropped in probe reasons. The response to this in the thread which is about a genocide seems like the correct place to clarify your position on genocide. In the case of "strawman argument" this is less severe than it is calling someone a genocide advocate. Is there a non-rulebreaking way to openly clarify that you are not advocating genocide if you are accused of that by a mod? Or are you asking to get multiple PMs saying "Please cite exactly where Quantumcat Advocated for Genocide. Also, advocating for genocide, per Koos, is not against the rules in D&D." which seems to be just creating work for yourself. EDIT: Tried to link this content to the thread explicitly. EDIT 2: vvv Thank you. hooman fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 23:41
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hooman posted:A post stating that you are not advocating genocide in spite of what a probe reason says is not an unreasonable response from someone to clarify their position, otherwise you have no ability to refute accusations being dropped in probe reasons. In the case of "strawman argument" this is less severe than it is calling someone a genocide advocate. Is there a non-rulebreaking way to openly clarify that you are not advocating genocide if you are accused of that by a mod? I'm gonna catch up on both reports and this kerfuffle.
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Mar 28, 2024 23:43
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Paladinus posted:Effectiveness of denazification aside, Germany paid compensations directly to Jewish victims of the Holocaust (over 63 billion euros), not just reparations to the state of Israel. Germany also had a huge Jewish immigration programme that attracted hundreds of thousands of Jews, primarily from ex-Soviet republics. I suppose you could think about the compensation and repartition as attempts at honest atonement by a people in the immediate postwar period trying to earnestly reckon with what it did, but I don't think that viewpoint is particularly historically accurate. A bunch of very-recently-ex nazis (and their abettors) needed to launder their reputation quickly to regain access to the international community and its markets. israel itself was extremely hesitant to take german money (calling it blood money) and was essentially forced to by its relative weakness as a regional power at the time. German cultural contrition wasn't even really a thing until the 70s or so -- it came about as a reaction to a German cultural attitude that saw itself as much a victim of Hitler as the Jews were. I'm sure that individual Germans are driven by a feeling of honestly-felt guilt over the actions of their nazi forbears (such as the goofballs who fly the antifaschistische aktion flag with a big israeli flag), but German support of israel, especially at a state level, still being fundamentally driven by its own, partly contemporary and partly historic, antisemitism is -- I'm sorry -- not at all ludicrous. Nazi support for the zionist project is not some weird conspiracy theory, it's historic fact
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Mar 28, 2024 23:55
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I suppose you could think about the compensation and repartition as attempts at honest atonement by a people in the immediate postwar period trying to earnestly reckon with what it did, but I don't think that viewpoint is particularly historically accurate. A bunch of very-recently-ex nazis (and their abettors) needed to launder their reputation quickly to regain access to the international community and its markets. israel itself was extremely hesitant to take german money (calling it blood money) and was essentially forced to by its relative weakness as a regional power at the time. German cultural contrition wasn't even really a thing until the 70s or so -- it came about as a reaction to a German cultural attitude that saw itself as much a victim of Hitler as the Jews were. I have no doubt that there were reasons behind it other than just doing good by the people who suffered, but the same can be said about any state action. Maybe Joe Biden feels deeply for the plight of Native Americans, but various Native American initiatives rolled out by his administration also have a pragmatic element to them. The nazis' attempt at getting rid of the Jews has no direct influence on politics of the modern Germany, just like Amin al-Husayni's ties with Hitler have very little bearing on the political climate of modern Palestine, despite of what some Israeli officials would want us to believe. The state of Germany, at the moment, is decidedly not institutionally anti-Semitic. Unless you somehow say that Zionism itself is inherently anti-Semitic, which it isn't. At least not more than how English ultra-nationalism is actually inherently anti-English in that it also negatively affects English people.
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Mar 29, 2024 00:22
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socialsecurity posted:So some advisors that used to work for the government and have gone private makes something "a spooked up propaganda apparatus of the American government" does this apply to other news agencies in other governments or some unique evil aura that emits from ex-American government employees? Calling an ex CIA director someone that used to work for the government seems disingenuous. The report is bad because they seem to have searched a bunch of conspiracy theory type topics and used that to justify an overall rate of misinformation. If they searched for things like 'how to do addition' they would probably get a 99% + correct information rate. Raenir Salazar posted:Cyrano4747 who iirc is a historian who speaks/reads German and did a lot of research in German archives I believe GDR archives. Paladinus posted:Just to clarify, Gerhard Schröder, the chancellor of Germany from 1998 to 2005, was born in 1944 and was not in fact a nazi. Gerhard Schröder, who held various ministerial positions from 1953 to 1969, was actually a member of NSDAP until he left the party in 1941. Pretty weird to me to consider the Shoa specifically as the biggest atrocity of the 20th century when more than twice as many Russians were genocided. Apologies if this is not quite what you meant but it's the natural reading.
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Mar 29, 2024 00:40
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Paladinus posted:The nazis' attempt at getting rid of the Jews has no direct influence on politics of the modern Germany This is historically impossible. It would be like saying the legacy of Jim Crow is over, or that our attempt at getting rid of Native Americans has no direct influence on our modern politics. I can't conceive a worldview that can contain this, logically or spiritually, as a stipulated fact. It seems so self-evidently wrong that I can't even conceive of how one arrives at this position. Please elaborate, because this just feels so wrong-headed I must be reading it wrong.
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Mar 29, 2024 00:48
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:It begins to make sense why Germany is persecuting Jewish people for not supporting Israel. They do not want Germany to be a place for Jewish people to live, and that goal lines up perfectly with Israel's. It's also a great exscuse to crack down on their Muslim population. I think the bolded is a really extreme claim that needs support. I am not Jewish, but I have spent a decent amount of time in Germany (mostly former West Germany, some East) and work very closely with several Germans for many years. From what I can tell the Holocaust is a deep source of national shame, and when the topic has come up I have a hard time accepting that there is still some Nazi-era antisemitism driving Germany's support of Israel. Pentecoastal Elites posted:I suppose you could think about the compensation and repartition as attempts at honest atonement by a people in the immediate postwar period trying to earnestly reckon with what it did, but I don't think that viewpoint is particularly historically accurate. A bunch of very-recently-ex nazis (and their abettors) needed to launder their reputation quickly to regain access to the international community and its markets. israel itself was extremely hesitant to take german money (calling it blood money) and was essentially forced to by its relative weakness as a regional power at the time. German cultural contrition wasn't even really a thing until the 70s or so -- it came about as a reaction to a German cultural attitude that saw itself as much a victim of Hitler as the Jews were. It's 2024. Why is it more reasonable to frame German support of Israel as lingering Nazi-era antisemitism, rather than a fear of doing anything that could be remotely considered antisemitic? I don't think BDS or similar is antisemitic, but opposition to it is certainly framed that way and I can see how a government that is terrified of being seen as antisemitic would err on that side.
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Mar 29, 2024 00:52
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Weka posted:Pretty weird to me to consider the Shoa specifically as the biggest atrocity of the 20th century when more than twice as many Russians were genocided. Apologies if this is not quite what you meant but it's the natural reading. By the biggest atrocity I meant Germany's extermination campaign against the peoples the nazis deemed racially inferior, which includes the Shoah but also genocides perpetrated against other nationalities. selec posted:This is historically impossible. It would be like saying the legacy of Jim Crow is over, or that our attempt at getting rid of Native Americans has no direct influence on our modern politics. I can't conceive a worldview that can contain this, logically or spiritually, as a stipulated fact. It seems so self-evidently wrong that I can't even conceive of how one arrives at this position. Please elaborate, because this just feels so wrong-headed I must be reading it wrong. Would you agree that Amin al-Husayni's ties with Hitler have profound influence on Palestinian politics today? Do you also believe that the current government of Germany is choke-full of crypto-nazis who, through support of Israel (and very little else, apparently), try to make thousands of Jewish Germans leave the country? Paladinus fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Mar 29, 2024 |
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Mar 29, 2024 00:55
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Paladinus posted:The nazis' attempt at getting rid of the Jews has no direct influence on politics of the modern Germany, This is a bizarre statement and seems manifestly untrue even if you completely disagree with me -- Germany's specific relationship with israel, their political orientation to the zionist project, the conflation of anti-zionism with antisemitism, the aforementioned frozen bank accounts, etc. etc. etc -- the political stance Germany has to israel today, right now, is absolutely informed by the Holocaust. It seems outrageous to me to claim otherwise. Maybe zionism isn't antisemetic, but the German sociopolitical expression of zionism, is absolutely antisemitic. That's not a rare thing, either: the contemporary American conservative Christian expression of zionism, for example, is incredibly antisemitic. DeadlyMuffin posted:It's 2024. Why is it more reasonable to frame German support of Israel as lingering Nazi-era antisemitism, rather than a fear of doing anything that could be remotely considered antisemitic? I don't think BDS or similar is antisemitic, but opposition to it is certainly framed that way and I can see how a government that is terrified of being seen as antisemitic would err on that side. It is not lingering nazi antisemitism, it is cotemporary antisemitism that has been formed by, but is expressed differently from, the historic antisemitism of Germany (and Europe more broadly, if we're being honest). I don't think the German political apparatus is so "terrified" that they have inadvertently became virulently anti-Palestinian to the extent that they are aiding and cheering on a genocide and cracking down internally on a conception of "antisemitism" so malformed that it's harming an outsized number of German jews. Here is a good article on the subject by a Jewish anti-Zionist Berliner: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/3/1/german-memory-culture-anti-semitic-zionists-and-palestinian-liberation
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Paladinus posted:By the biggest atrocity I meant Germany's extermination campaign against the peoples the nazis deemed racially inferior, which includes the Shoah but also genocides perpetrated against other nationalities. I would not agree that what is basically a piece of historical trivia figures at the same level of what is considered by many to be the greatest crime humans have ever committed against themselves, no, that would be a silly thing to believe. Some historical events carry greater weight, and meaning than others. I don't believe Germany is chock full of Nazis, I believe Germany is a country who didn't do the work to meaningfully grapple with Naziism, and the institutions (extra-national) that had the power to make that happen in the immediate aftermath of WWII placed a much higher priority on creating a capitalist bulwark out of the ashes than anything else, which has permanently impaired their ability to grapple with it. That there was an entire generation of Germans (and many thereafter) who came home from school one day and got really loving pissed at their parents and grandparents, in the ways they did, tells me that the nation did not reckon with itself properly. You don't come home shocked from school one day to scream at your elders asking what they knew and what they did because the whole nation has this figured out. I had a great German history teacher who spent a day in class talking about this phenomenon, and his take was that a country that had properly reckoned with this stuff wouldn't have a generationally-shared experience of recoiling in horror from the older members of your family once you hit the right grade in school. He described in in terms that made it seem like a coming of age cliche' for a few generations, an experience so widely shared it became a cultural commonplace. That isn't what happens in a nation that has made peace with what it did, it happens in one that scrambled to pretend it was normal again.
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Mar 29, 2024 01:06
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:This is a bizarre statement and seems manifestly untrue even if you completely disagree with me -- Germany's specific relationship with israel, their political orientation to the zionist project, the conflation of anti-zionism with antisemitism, the aforementioned frozen bank accounts, etc. etc. etc -- the political stance Germany has to israel today, right now, is absolutely informed by the Holocaust. It seems outrageous to me to claim otherwise. Maybe zionism isn't antisemetic, but the German sociopolitical expression of zionism, is absolutely antisemitic. That's not a rare thing, either: the contemporary American conservative Christian expression of zionism, for example, is incredibly antisemitic. This is not what I said, though. I said that Germany in the year 2024 is not trying to fulfil promises of the Haavara Agreement. Do you really believe that the current government of Germany is choke-full of crypto-nazis who, through support of Israel (and very little else, apparently), try to make thousands of Jewish Germans leave the country? selec posted:I would not agree that what is basically a piece of historical trivia figures at the same level of what is considered by many to be the greatest crime humans have ever committed against themselves, no, that would be a silly thing to believe. What does any of that has to do with the original claim that the German government covertly continues nazi policies of trying to expel Jews from the country? I never claimed Germany's 'solved' post-war reconciliation, I actually stated the opposite. But the claim in this post that started the discussion is patently untrue. Germany is literally the only country in Europe with a growing Jewish population, in big part thanks to the Jewish immigration programmes I mentioned. Your Brain on Hugs posted:Germany's position towards Israel makes a lot more sense if you consider Israel as a willing partner in Germany's project to expel their Jewish population, which did not end after the war. When you learn that: Paladinus fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Mar 29, 2024 |
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Mar 29, 2024 01:14
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selec posted:That there was an entire generation of Germans (and many thereafter) who came home from school one day and got really loving pissed at their parents and grandparents, in the ways they did, tells me that the nation did not reckon with itself properly. You don't come home shocked from school one day to scream at your elders asking what they knew and what they did because the whole nation has this figured out. Isn't this how you make peace? If you have generations of people who, as they are educated (presumably by the government!) respond with horror at the atrocities of the Nazi era generation that seems like exactly the right response. When that younger generation is in power (which they are) they will know better. Their children will know better. Don't you wish people had that response to the horrible poo poo the US has done? How would that be anything but a massive step forward? DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Mar 29, 2024 |
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Mar 29, 2024 01:19
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When German Jews make up much less than 1% of the population, but make up more than 35% of those who have been arrested under antisemitism laws, that should tell you something about Germany's relationship with its Jewish population. Guilt over the Holocaust is certainly a part of why Germany supports Israel to the extent it does, but it's also because having a Jewish Homeland that's not in Germany means there are that many less Jews who might otherwise be living in Germany.
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Mar 29, 2024 01:22
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