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If the US wanted to it could end the genocide today. It is entirely the full backing and support of the US state that allows Israel to continue their oppression and occupation of Palestine. When the representative of America's foreign policy gives a statement like that, it comes across to most of the world as deeply psychotic.
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Jan 7, 2024 23:55
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So basically you're saying there is in fact a whole lot the US could do to end the genocide, but also it would be hard and they absolutely don't want to.
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Jan 8, 2024 21:35
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As far as I'm aware, the IDF has released the names of every single Israeli who died on October 7th, and it included one baby. This article would imply that not all the names have been released, or that there are extra babies. Also it can't be ruled out that bodies missing heads were blown up by Israeli tank shells, as they have stated that they fired on hostages and houses, as well as intentionally killing hostages that were being taken back to Gaza.
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Jan 14, 2024 06:13
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It's being discussed a lot because this is all Israel has. They have to try and paint Hamas as animalistic savages of the kind that Israel allowed to perpetrate the Sabra and Shatila massacres, because it's the only thing that will justify the genocide in the minds of western liberals. It's why their entire defense in the ICJ hinged on atrocity propaganda, even though that has no relevance in the court, because there can be no legal justification for genocide.
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Jan 14, 2024 21:58
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It's also very funny given that the internationally recognized head of the Yemeni government was put in power in an election that had only his name on the ballot. Then I remember how long Juan Guaido was the internationally recognized leader of Venezuela for and have another chuckle. Also very funny that the US are talking about freedom of navigation when it was their ships that blockaded Yemeni ports and prevented any food or medicine from getting in, leading to the deaths of many times more children than even Israel has so far managed to exterminate. Your Brain on Hugs fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Jan 16, 2024 |
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Jan 16, 2024 05:30
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The magical spell would be stopping the genocide by stopping all military aid to israel and applying sanctions, military intervention if necessary. The strikes on Yemen are reckless and counterproductive, insurance companies are now refusing to insure US and UK ships which was the opposite of the supposed purpose. The US has absolutely no leverage over Yemen, they've already been striking and starving them for years and it's only made them stronger. The US is desperately flailing and every other country can see it.
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Jan 18, 2024 22:58
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It is absolutely untrue that there is nothing Biden could do to stop this genocide if he wanted to. He is the commander in chief of the most expensive military on the planet. He could blockade weapons and supplies from entering Israel, set a no fly zone over Gaza, use tactical strikes to reduce their air capability. These would be absolute last resort actions, there are a thousand more things he could use the power of the executive to do. The fact that they would have political consequences for him does not enter into the moral judgement, and to act otherwise is to try and absolve him of his moral responsibility to end a genocide. To be clear, Biden is completely culpable for this and absolutely has the power to end it.
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Jan 20, 2024 22:31
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He could start with a million smaller things, it's not as if any president before him has had an issue with telling Israel what the deal is. The point is that there is no defending or excusing his actions based on the political reality, he is 100 percent culpable for the genocide. Anyone who still supports him can make that choice, but they are also choosing to support a genocide. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 20, 2024 23:19
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Kalit posted:As a reminder, anyone who has a chance of becoming the president wouldn’t prevent the genocide. And if you’re against the genocide, abstaining from voting will most likely help a candidate who would cheer on a faster genocide If your only option is to vote between 2 Hitlers, the course of action is not to vote for one of the Hitlers and encourage everyone else to do the same, it is to start trying to organise against your political system. Also, if your country is currently deciding between 2 Hitlers to run it, perhaps it has absolutely no business being in control of anything, and no one should listen to anything it has to say on any foreign policy issue. The moral thing to do would be to support Yemen in their fight against the US at this point, and advocate for US leaders prosecution in the international criminal court. I understand it can be hard to accept this if you live in the US and materially benefit from its crimes, but many before you have had to face this as well. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 03:38
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Kalit posted:If you think Biden is similar to Hitler, you should probably take a step back and re-examine your views. Hyperbole to some degree, but the fact remains he is giving full material support to a genocide. The point still stands.
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Jan 21, 2024 03:59
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Also if you're worried about media organizations being tainted, the NYT, Washington Post, and MSNBC all routinely launder propaganda for a state that supports and instigates genocide (The USA), which I would put at least on par with putting out anti-LGBT material. There is no unbiased media, you have to take each tweet or video in its context.
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Jan 24, 2024 05:47
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Seems like there's no real incentive for Hamas to accept a deal while Israel is currently losing the war. Anything less than full removal of IDF forces in Gaza and an all for all prisoner exchange wouldn't make sense strategically. As long as the hostages stay in Gaza, the pressure will keep mounting on netanyahu and his coalition will grow more fragile. They can't achieve their goals militarily, so the situation only favours Hamas at the moment.
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Jan 25, 2024 00:34
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Kalit posted:Could you expand on how they’re “losing”? Israel essentially has control of half of Gaza and has murdered over twenty thousand Gazans. I would call retreating your forces without having achieved any of your strategic goals losing. The ability of Hamas to launch rockets into Israel hasn't been meaningfully degraded, the hostages have not been rescued. People are already returning to the areas IDF is pulling out of.
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Jan 25, 2024 01:11
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'You and what army?' seems appropriate here. The IDF are drawing down forces in the north of Gaza, and Gallant has stated the same will happen in the south as they move into the next 'phase' of the war, which will include, smaller, targeted raids. If they haven't managed to budge Hamas in a hundred days with this number of troops, how are they going to manage it with less? If they can't manage it, what other army is going to do it? How exactly are they going to enforce a non-hamas government in Gaza that has no military control and no support from the population? If you read between the lines, it looks like the IDF trying to save face while essentially retreating with none of their stated goals achieved. Netanyahu needs to prolong this war at all costs, as it's the only means for his continued political survival, but that will become harder and harder as time goes on and the coalition starts to fracture. If the hostages are not rescued, it's going to cause some pretty massive political unrest. One hundred days and not a single hostage rescued by the IDF, but many killed by them. Again, if they haven't managed with this many troops, how are they going to do it with less?
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Jan 25, 2024 05:50
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And yet, they are withdrawing forces. This is a sticking point for many Israelis, they're saying "why are Gazans allowed to return to the northern strip while Israelis cannot return to settments in the Gaza envelope?". As long as Hamas is still firing rockets, the settlers will not return. As long as the IDF is still bombing Gaza, Hezbollah will not stop bombing the north, and displaced Israelis cannot return there either. And yet, the IDF is drawing down forces. What is their plan to rescue the hostages and defeat Hamas with less troops than they had before?
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Jan 25, 2024 11:30
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There's plenty of discussion in the cspam thread, it just tends to be informative stuff about historical context, politics and economy. Much more news and updates from a wide variety of sources too, including hebrew and Arabic language news. Very little pedantry and pointless arguments, but that's what this thread is for. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 3, 2024 21:13
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Here is some content then: https://twitter.com/revolutionaryem/status/1753618435370586272 https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1753595542658220229 It seems that the houthi blockade of ships trying to enter Eilat has had quite an effect. I remember some posters saying they were only doing it for opportunistic piracy reasons, which seems very naive and unsupported by the data. US intervention seems to be having little effect, other than making US and UK ships uninsurable. The US looks to be flailing, doing the only thing they know how to do, which is bomb things, rather than try diplomacy. That might jeopardize their support of the ongoing genocide though, so they'll never do it.
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Feb 4, 2024 00:32
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Kagrenak posted:For weeks the line people ITT have given is "Ships with no questionable ownership just put 'no contact Israel' in their transponders and go on through" Now presented with the fact that that isn't happening (anymore? At scale? At least some shops were absolutely doing it for a while) we see an immediate shift to "shutting down all traffic is good actually." Shipping insurers don't like to gamble, it's very hard to justify insuring ships with even the remote possibility that they might be fired upon. Regardless, seems weird to me to criticize action by an entity actually attempting to enforce the ICJs measures to try and prevent a genocide, and put pressure upon those nations supposedly part of the rules based international order which nevertheless seem to be in flagrant violation of their obligations under the genocide convention. Much more deserving of your scorn would be all those nations who pulled funding from UNRWA.
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Feb 4, 2024 01:48
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Kchama posted:They had gotten away with it for a decade without being bombed for it. Judging by the fact that China is yelling at them over it, it might just be because of the deal China worked out between China and SA to get them to stop. And uh, they then didn’t stop. During that decade their ports were being blockaded by US Navy ships, preventing food and medicine from entering the country, leading to cholera outbreaks and the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children. Not saying you're doing this, but it would seem kind of ghoulish to call any naval action under those circumstances piracy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2024 09:31
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The hostages are the only leverage Hamas has, and it looks like they're smart enough to demand nothing less than a permanent ceasefire with guarantees, the release of the vast majority of Palestinian prisoners, and some kind of rebuilding plan. Any such deal will guarantee that Ben-gvir and Smotrich blow up the coalition however. Yair lapid and Benny gantz have indicated that they would join the coalition to get the hostage deal over the line if that was the case, so the question would be if netanyahu thinks he can survive politically after such a deal. Getting all the hostages back would be a big win politically, but with a permanent ceasefire, there's no way he could say that he's defeated Hamas. This would probably cause a pretty big split, as up until now the people have been more or less united behind the dual goals of hostage rescue and revenge on Hamas. If the first goal is done and the second looks like it won't happen any time soon, and Hamas gets to rebuild, what happens in Israel politically?
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Feb 7, 2024 01:11
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Biden and netanyahu are definitely two of the worst possible people you could have in charge in a situation like this. Netanyahu because he needs to extend the war at all costs to stay in power and even potentially to stay out of prison. Biden because he is a uniquely rabid Zionist, even moreso than anyone is surrounded by. By all accounts he simply will not listen to the growing calls by even his most senior advisers to even call for a ceasefire, let alone put any pressure upon Israel whatsoever, and seems completely willing to blow the election and any shred of respect the US has in the non-western world, over supporting Israel to hilt.
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Feb 7, 2024 05:23
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Certainly more than any other Democrat I could think of, and most republicans. He was to the right of Reagan when it came to Israel during the 80s, some of the things he said even gave AIPAC lobbyists pause. Both Reagan and Bush senior put actual pressure on Israel when they felt they were getting out of hand. Biden will never do this even though netanyahu has only contempt for him.
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Feb 7, 2024 05:47
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Kchama posted:Biden hasn’t tried to push pressure? There’s been lots of news reports on the Biden administration trying to get Israel to be less genocidal freaks, though not to much success as you can tell. It’s really unfortunate though that the only other option for president is going to be Donald “I’LL INVADE TO DROWN THE GAZANS IN BLOOD!” Trump. That's not pressure, that's a fig leaf to make liberals still feel like they can support Biden and say they're good people. It's PR. In no sense has the Biden admin put any kind of actual pressure upon Israel. Netanyahu has repeatedly told his own coalition that he knows how to deal with Biden, and that there's no worry about Biden keeping them from doing anything they want. He's completely correct in saying this. It is indeed unfortunate that it looks like the only other potential president for the next 4 years is trump. Which is why I've said in the past, if the only two potential leaders of your country are fully supporting and enabling genocide, perhaps it's time your country was no longer the global hegemonic power. Your Brain on Hugs fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Feb 7, 2024 |
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Feb 7, 2024 06:11
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Google Jeb Bush posted:.... That line about things being even worse if the US weren't involved is a line the US has used in almost every genocide they've supported, from Yemen in the 2010s to Pakistan with Kissinger, it's always been just a fig leaf. Of course no one in the state department believes they're a monster, that's how the whole system is set up to work. They all believe they're good people making hard choices. Doesn't make them any less culpable or the outcomes any better.
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Feb 7, 2024 20:09
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https://jacobin.com/2024/02/biden-administration-gaza-israel-war Article with quotes from US officials implying what we already knew, that Biden is on board with what Israel is doing in Gaza, and leaks to contrary are simply PR. Would just like to state my opinion here that Biden, and the US government are completely culpable for this genocide and should all be tried in the ICJ and ICC for aiding and abetting a genocide. History will not be kind to the people who defended or equivocated on any of this.
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Feb 15, 2024 20:24
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It completely shatters the liberal fantasy of the Rules Based International Order and lays bare the ugly heart of the US led hegemony. It forces people to confront this ugliness in sort of the same way that Trump did. This time however it's liberals in charge. When your entire political and media class has been shown to be no better - if not worse - than the Bad Countries, for many people it's much easier to ignore or downplay and equivocate rather than take a good look at their beliefs and how the world operates.
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Feb 16, 2024 21:33
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They see eye to eye in the sense that they are both completely ok with the genocide. If you're going to take the US government's statements at face value, you might as well do the same with Israel's.
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Feb 17, 2024 23:00
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Kalit posted:You and others keep talking about Biden’s personal morality (e.g. he doesn’t actually care about the genocide, it’s just for optics, etc). That’s literally the only reason why I was talking about them Our reading of Biden on this is backed up by his historical statements and past and current actions, yours seems to be based on credulousness and wishful thinking. Why is it important to you that Biden is not funny morally culpable for this? Do you think it appropriate that he be tried in the Hague for war crimes or not?
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Feb 18, 2024 22:08
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All talk from the US about a ceasefire deal at this point is just propaganda for US liberals, as netanyahu has ruled out any deal that involves a substantial release of prisoners held by Israel, and Hamas has said that any invasion of rafah will take any deal off the table for the time being. Netanyahu would like all the hostages to die because they're a nuisance for him, and Hamas will never give them up for anything less than a permanent ceasefire and a substantial release of prisoners. The US will not acknowledge this because a large part of their propaganda is pretending that Biden is trying to work towards a hostage release, rather than just allowing netanyahu all the time he needs to further the genocide.
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Feb 20, 2024 04:24
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Sephyr posted:!" It's 100% this, no stated US policy towards the Gaza situation has had anything to do with the reality on the ground. They have no actual solution other than to let Israel keep doing what they're doing and protect them as much as possible. The US ceasefire proposition is for a temporary ceasefire in exchange for all hostages released and no Palestinian prisoners released. This is completely unserious and bears no relation to the goals of Hamas or the netanyahu government.
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Feb 20, 2024 23:44
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Zionism is a fascist ideology, it will always need an enemy. If Israel were ever to manage to cleanse Palestine (they won't), they would look further afield to Lebanon and Jordan. The US would still support them in this, as they are fully aligned with Zionism. The only way to prevent genocide is to destroy Zionism.
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Feb 22, 2024 01:37
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You're correct, I was using Zionism as a stand in for the current state of Israel. It's certainly possible for Jews and Arabs to live together in Palestine under a single secular democratic state. A great many dedicated Zionists see this as the same as death though, and would either flee or die fighting. You're also right that it won't kill white supremacist settler colonialism, it'll just be reabsorbed and push out elsewhere as long as the western white supremacist hegemony is in charge.
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Feb 22, 2024 02:40
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It's one of the reasons the US has been so successful in dominating the globe. The propaganda machine is so sophisticated it makes a huge number of people fully believe they're some of the most moral and upstanding people in the world while they support the extermination and subjugation of oppressed peoples around the world. You can see it in the difference between western and Israeli media. The Hebrew language stuff targeted at Israelis doesn't have to pretend that they think Palestinians are human, it's just all out there in the open, the slaughter must continue and it's good. English language media targeted at US liberals like the New York Times and CNN is much more practiced at coming to the same conclusion while making the reader think that they're supporting a nuanced position. The slaughter is a tragedy, but regrettably it must continue.
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Feb 23, 2024 22:06
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Printing outright fabrications as fact is nothing new for the NYT, but it's especially egregious when it serves to fuel a genocide. I would hope there will be actually consequences for this, but it's the US, so there won't be. Lots of news about hostage negotiations today, but I've learned it's best to treat anything as trash unless it comes directly out of the mouths of Hamas leaders or netanyahu. On that front, it's the same immoveable stalemate. Seems like everyone is just waiting for the rafah invasion.
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Feb 24, 2024 23:01
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It shows you the effectiveness of Respectable Liberal Media, where you can quote anonymous intelligence or discredited sources, and then other media outlets will quote your story, and on and on down the chain until it becomes common knowledge that's been extensively researched, even though it all comes back to the same single source. This happened a lot with coverage of Xinjiang, a massive amount of outlets and articles, but it all just came back to Adrien Zenz. The NYT can lie over and over again but their respectability or trustworthiness will never be called into question, whereas other more fringe outlets that go against the official narrative will be dismissed out of hand.
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Feb 26, 2024 10:18
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Yeah the only useful info about a ceasefire deal at this point will come directly from Hamas, as they're the last people who are consulted. You can occasionally glean something from direct netanyahu statements, but anything from Biden or the US is complete trash and should be ignored. We've seen people falling for it over and over. There's nothing at all to indicate that the intractable lines from Hamas and netanyahus coalition have moved at all. At this stage we're just waiting for March 10.
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Feb 27, 2024 20:10
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Yeah Biden is just saying stuff to try and placate the Democrat base, they didn't expect there to be this much resistance to Biden's support of genocide. I wouldn't rule out that Biden is addled enough to believe some of it himself. You could pretty much ignore any mainstream western media on this as long as you're paying attention to Israeli and Arabic media and you'd have a much better picture of what's going on.
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Feb 28, 2024 03:52
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In a sane world the people responsible for knowingly printing vile atrocity propaganda that's used to justify a genocide would be put on trial, but they will never face any consequences for this.
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Feb 29, 2024 12:38
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I think trying to speculate who would back a genocide more is kind of useless, it's clear at this point that both Israel and America must be stopped. Whatever can make that happen should be supported.
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Feb 29, 2024 22:36
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More and more people are learning that the US are, in fact, The Baddies.
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Mar 1, 2024 09:33
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