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nogoodpeople posted:Once again, I said they should work on deaccelerating apartheid and genocide. There are ways to do so without cooperating in it. What ways do you have in mind, specifically?
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Oct 10, 2023 02:32
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Celexi posted:how is that going to solve anything? Gives negotiators some breathing room to hammer out a more substantial lasting peace.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:43
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nogoodpeople posted:What do you think the ANC and MK did in South Africa and why do you think it was so successful? The ANC conducted a long, brutal terrorist campaign against apartheid South Africa - indeed, Mandela was on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008. quote:Their only option is to win this conflict psychologically. In order to do that they have to create situations where they weaken the position of their enemy by attacking on many psychological fronts. They need to bring strong international pressure against the current Israeli government and in favor of Palestine. They need to push at internal pressure points and conflicts within Israel and Israeli politics to create weaknesses within the currently ruling Israeli parties. They need to make the Palestinian issue such a pain in the rear end and politically and financially costly to Israel to deal with that they instead seek another solution beyond genocide and apartheid. What pressure points and conflicts are there for Palestine to exploit? What leverage do they have to push on those pressure points?
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Oct 10, 2023 02:58
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nogoodpeople posted:I don't think you understand what I am saying. You seem to think there's only one way to run a resistance campaign and it's all equal. I don't, actually. I am fully aware that there are multiple ways of running a resistance campaign and do not believe that all of those ways are "equal" (either morally or practically). I am, however, asking what alternatives Hamas and the Palestinian people have at this point other than violence. quote:There are many ways to run resistance campaigns, and they are not all equal. MK and the ANC knew how to do things a hell of a lot better than HAMAS and persistently sough to apply internal and external pressure on the South African Regime at practically every single point they could in order to win. Would you please be specific and tell me what some of those things were, as well as how those lessons may be applied to the case of Palestine?
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Oct 10, 2023 03:08
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nogoodpeople posted:You could start by not indiscriminately killing a bunch of civilians and parading their dead bodies through the streets including people from foreign countries; especialy European and Asian ones that have nothing to do with any of this. It looks super loving bad and makes people think you're just as bad or worse than the Israelis. I'm asking for specific examples of things they should do, though, not things that they shouldn't do.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:32
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nogoodpeople posted:I laid it out in a earlier post where I explained they should apply pressure on Israel by seeking international cooperation to apply boycotts and assorted other forms of pressure internationally as well as locally within Israel using internal fighting to their advantage. There are anti-BDS laws in 35 of the 50 U.S. states. Simply saying, "The ANC did it; Hamas should have done it too" ignores the fact that the context of this war is very different from the one that existed during the boycotts of apartheid South Africa.
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Oct 10, 2023 03:46
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nogoodpeople posted:Why the gently caress do you think there are anti-BDS laws in 35 states? Because the Likud Lobby is extremely powerful and wealthy, and has captured most politicians on both sides of the aisle. This has been the case for the better part of a century. It has little to do with Hamas. quote:Good PR teams have rehabilitated and broadened the images of literally all the dictatorship leaders of the Arab Peninsula recently. They hosted the 2020 World Cup in Qatar and they will also be hosting the 2034 World Cup in Saudi Arabia; despite both being apartheid slave states that kill dissidents; all of the back of PR. Sounds great, how do you propose the Palestinian people pay for these PR teams? Are there PR teams who would work to advance the Palestinian cause if it weren't for Hamas?
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Oct 10, 2023 04:01
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Dopilsya posted:I don't want to downplay anyone's death, but it's worth noting the death toll in Saturday's attack is nearing the total amount of white people killed in the anti-apartheid fight, and even that amount is pretty broadly viewed as counterproductive and having undercut the real successes which were pretty much all won via the nonviolent campaigns. The vast, vast majority of brutality in things like the poqo was reserved for other black factions. I don't know how much value that fact holds for Palestine, there's big differences between these situations, but the idea that apartheid was won via bombs is pretty much completely rejected. I never claimed or suggested it was won entirely via bombs - just that the suggestion that they didn't use bombs is ahistorical. Nor do I think many people (if any) ITT are claiming that all of the killings of civilians in the present campaign are defensible or productive. They are a tragic reality of war - a war that the Palestinian people did not start, and which the Israeli government has the power to stop at any time. Majorian fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 04:17
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Hamas apparently has one fan among world leaders: Bibi! From Haaretz, courtesy of @biggestjoel: (who is a very good and funny youtuber, if you aren't familiar)  It's kind of stunning to me that he just out and said it like that.
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Oct 10, 2023 06:50
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Eric Cantonese posted:Is the whole Haaretz piece worth tracking down? It's behind a paywall. That link doesn't work for me, but the full text can also be accessed here. It's less of a piece on the war with Palestine, and more of a polemic calling for Bibi to resign in the wake of his corruption cases and now this massive security fuckup. But it's an interesting read nonetheless.
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Oct 10, 2023 07:09
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Asking 'what else could Hamas have done' is insane to me because they demonstrated they could do a whole bunch of other things last weekend! They decisively breached containment, overran some IDF positions and were able to capture senior IDF officers. If they had done that without also committing some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century that would've put Israel in a very difficult situation - Bibi would still have been humiliated by a catastrophic failure, and his government would have to negotiate for the release of the prisoners. But as-is all domestic and international opposition to razing Gaza to the ground has evaporated, and Hamas will be wiped out along with any civilians who are unable to flee (currently this is looking to be 'all of them'). I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that the rapes and murders of civilians were centrally-planned. It seems more likely to me, as Neurolimal suggested, that they were the result of a lack of discipline among the Hamas fighters. Hopefully those fighters will be brought to justice by the appropriate authorities, and Hamas, if it survives as an organization, will institute more rigid discipline among its fighting units. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 09:23
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kiminewt posted:I've regained my composure and wandered back into the thread. E: nevermind, I will look into it tomorrow. I want to make sure I’m working off of facts in this discussion. If what you say in bold is true though, then I stand corrected. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 09:38
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Leave for where? Western Europe, the US, Canada. An estimated 15% of Israeli settlers are from the U.S. originally. Netanyahu is from Philly.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:18
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TheDisreputableDog posted:The one thing that always confused me is how Palestine became a darling of the left. Like, a Palestinian state would probably stone a bunch of you to death, treat others like chattel? The people certainly deserve basic rights, Israel is evil in so many ways, but you have queer Palestinians fleeing *into* Israel to escape oppression - shouldn’t that be a factor for any progressive? I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything. Justice isn't about advocating for the rights of only people who you agree with; it's about advocating for the rights of the oppressed, period.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:32
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Netanyahu was Born in Tel-Aviv and his father was born in Poland. My mistake, he spent several of his childhood years in Philly: quote:Between 1956 and 1958, and again from 1963 to 1967, his family lived in the United States in Cheltenham Township, Pennsylvania, a suburb of Philadelphia, while father Benzion Netanyahu taught at Dropsie College. Nessus posted:Western Europe has both a history of coexistence with the Jewish people and a welcoming attitude towards immigrants these days, it is true. The Western Europe of 2023 seems considerably safer for Jewish people than Israel/Palestine. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. e: Civilized Fishbot posted:The original post wasn't about just that 15% of settlers. We're talking about 7 million Israeli Jews, the vast majority have spent their whole lives in Israel, their whole families are there, they have no other citizenship. Well, first of all I'm not suggesting that they necessarily should all leave Israel/Palestine. I don't think that's a workable solution. I'm just rebutting the claim that they have nowhere else to go. That's not strictly true for all of them, and it's certainly not true to the extent that it's true of the Palestinian people, particularly the people of Gaza. As far as "furthering the occupation of Native American land" is concerned, conveniently, I think finding a way to pay reparations for stolen land would be a great first step in healing both of these patterns of mass injustice. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 21:42
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Nessus posted:Add a million new Jewish arrivals and I’m not so sure that stays true. Those arrivals would be predominantly white and Europeanized. We're not talking about refugees from Libya. Civilized Fishbot posted:Then your answer wasn't relevant to the context of my question, which was someone saying they should all pack up and go. You literally asked "Leave for where?" and I answered your question. It was an entirely pertinent answer. quote:I don't know how to read this except "the Israeli refugees are welcome in the US... as long as they can pay up!" You should read it as, "American citizens living on stolen indigenous land should pay reparations through taxes, preferably into social programs for indigenous people. Israeli citizens living on stolen land should do the same for Palestinian people." quote:Where do the Israelis go who aren't "white and Europeanized"? I'm not saying anyone should go anywhere. quote:I would find this line of thought much more intellectually honest if it was just what I've seen actual Palestinians say - "gently caress them, I don't care if they all die on the sea, they just need to go." It's the hateful logic of land conflicts but it doesn't pretend that being a refugee is safe. Do you honestly think that Israelis don't say literally the same thing about Palestinians regularly? The only difference is, Israel has the capacity to make this a reality for the Palestinians. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 21:54
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Nessus posted:If you’re talking a few tens of thousands of middle class migrants you’re probably right. If you’re talking a substantial chunk of Israel’s current population… well, I don’t share your confidence. Maybe it would be different this time around. Yeah, again, to be clear, I don't think Israelis just up-and-leaving en masse is a workable solution at this point in time. I do, however, think it's important to be reflective when we talk about people who have nowhere else to go. The Palestinian people, particularly those living in Gaza, truly have no way out of this situation. It is either resist and be killed or don't resist and be killed.
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Oct 10, 2023 22:06
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kiminewt posted:You do know about half of Israeli Jews are from the Middle East and North Africa, right? I'm very aware of this, yes. The Mizrahim and Sephardim face pretty serious discrimination in Israel. Again, I don't think Israeli mass migration is a workable solution.
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Oct 10, 2023 22:17
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PT6A posted:I feel like this "decolonization via ethnic cleansing" idea is not the best. Just a personal hunch. I think the only person to float the idea was Sir Fontlebottom, and I don't think they were floating it as a serious, workable plan for achieving peace in the region. I don't think anyone itt supports "decolonization via ethnic cleansing."
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Oct 10, 2023 22:43
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Viller posted:That sounds like western dumbasses trying to justify what Hamas did. In what way does it sound like that?
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Oct 11, 2023 05:49
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Vahakyla posted:This also removes the agency from Israel.  on all counts. It is a deliberate policy decision, or rather a set of policy decisions, to maintain this state of apartheid, and it's one that the government could end if the political will existed to make it happen.Viller posted:Pretty much reads like "If the border had been manned properly, it wouldnt have happenned. Its Israel's own fault" That's not "western dumbasses trying to justify what Hamas did." Where's the justification? Where's the "western dumbasses" part? 
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Oct 11, 2023 06:11
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zer0spunk posted:e2: Hopefully this ends the "kuwaiti incubator" equivalency thing..from bbc: A reporter said that an unnamed coroner said that it happened. That's not exactly ironclad confirmation - it's basically the same level of confirmation that the original i24 report had, in fact. In the meantime, the White House has had to backtrack on Biden's claim that he had seen confirmation of this particular atrocity with his own eyes: https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1712286535050269124 e: see the community note: https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1712213351101591907 Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 08:50
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zer0spunk posted:You're right, I was hoping that they'd have to verify and see the coroner report or something before publishing but maybe it's still under the hearsay category and they don't have to? not sure how that works, I'd consider BBC to be more on the fact checking side of journalism right now I agree that Hamas is a terrible organization that has committed horrible atrocities. But how do you think they should be made to "go"? Because right now the Israeli government's way of doing that seems to be committing far more atrocities against innocent civilians than Hamas ever could - something that could easily strengthen Hamas' position among Palestinians, not weaken it.
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Oct 12, 2023 09:00
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The U.S. political scene continues to feel very "immediately post-9/11": https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1712263842678321359 quote:At a Dem meeting today, Susan Wild said that she was working to organize interfaith gatherings, but worried that Muslims in the Lehigh Valley may not feel comfortable coming. \/\/\/yup, that tweet feels depressingly familiar! I sometimes wish I could go back to my college days, but not like this.  \/\/\/
Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 19:06
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Terebus posted:A more accurate portrayal of what people here and in other left spaces are fighting against is: The person you cited there is an obscure twitch streamer who posted cringe in the early hours of the attacks; I'm not sure she's particularly representative of the left as a whole or even the twitter left. I haven't seen anyone here saying that Hamas' attack was justified at all. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 12, 2023 19:50
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Zzulu posted:This thread a had a loooot of variations of "well, what else are they supposed to do?" in regards to Hamas terror attack that killed a thousand people. From what I've seen, the "what else are they supposed to do?" posts have been referring to Palestinians resorting to violence to achieve liberation - not committing atrocities against civilians.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:00
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Toxic Mental posted:FWIW, and this is kind of an aside, but that person is far from an obscure twitch streamer, they're probably the most famous Muslim twitch streamers in the English speaking areas and probably up there near the top of the overall politics streams as well. I think Hasan Piker probably beats her in terms of public awareness, but I take your point - I shouldn't have called her obscure, that just shows my ignorance.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:41
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fool of sound posted:My point is that they're an inevitable tactic when a just cause is severe and pressing, and the power imbalance so great. And, might I add, when all legal/nonviolent routes to liberation have been closed off by the group in power.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:14
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Kagrenak posted:I think Irony be my Shield meant it lessens the rhetorical and persuasive position of those condemning Israeli atrocities against Gaza. Which I think is unfortunately and fairly clearly true if one takes a brief look at the state of public discussion. Morally and ethically I agree with you that it changes nothing about Israel's conduct. Hamas' actions may mean that that argument convinces marginally fewer people in the Global North, but let's be real - the widespread dehumanization of Muslims has already done its damage. If Hamas had just stuck to taking hostages, hitting military targets, etc, and Bibi still responded with devastating collective punishment against Gaza, I don't think the Israeli government would enjoy any less support from the U.S. and its other allies. I think they'd still be calling it "worse than 9/11," (as multiple media sources have) braying for a holy war (as Lindsey Graham has), etc. Blut posted:If Hamas had only hit military and administration targets (courts, civil service buildings etc), and kidnapped Israeli soldiers, the attack would be being lauded almost globally for being a brilliant resistance coup. The common view of them globally would be of something similar to Mandela's ANC everywhere apart from the rare most pro-Israel regions. I'd like to believe this would be true, but I don't think it would be. I was in highschool when the attack on the USS Cole happened, and I clearly remember that the media response was basically what we'd see after 9/11, except at a smaller scale. I also remember how little coverage (much less praise) the Great March of Return received in 2018-19, and especially how little coverage the IDF's violent response to that nonviolent protest received. \/\/\/yeah, exactly, it's important to take into account the role of domestic politics in this. Something that punctures the myth of the invincible Israeli national security state so thoroughly was always going to receive an absurdly over-the-top response regardless of how many civilians died. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 22:44
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Jarmak posted:So are you or are you not defending the slaughter of civilians as necessary? I feel like I can say with a great deal of confidence no one here is demanding non violence or legality so stop shadow boxing with arguments no one is making and telling us what you think other people mean. What do you mean, and what argument are you making? I'm not defending it as necessary in this case. I think Hamas' killing of civilians was morally and ethically abhorrent, and also not at all productive. This isn't the first time I've said that in this thread, either. I don't believe I've ever claimed that anyone here is demanding nonviolence or legality, but I have been responding to a lot of posts erroneously conflating the contextualization of violence in liberation movements in the past with justification of violence. Those two things are not the same.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:02
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Blut posted:In the 1980s almost everywhere outside of Reagan's US and Thatcher's UK viewed the ANC as occasionally going too far (the odd civilian bombing etc) but generally as having the moral highground, and being right to fight for their freedom. There were regular public protests in Western democracies that were a more popular equivalent of today's BDS movement. The problem is, when the leaders of those Western democracies, 1, support the apartheid state in question to the hilt (as Reagan and Thatcher did), and 2, don't have to worry about being voted out of office over that support (also the case with Reagan and Thatcher), the outcome is pretty much the same: continued unwavering support for the apartheid regime by the Western governments. Anti-Apartheid Movement strategies like normalizing boycotting and divestment from South Africa worked in part because they did not have to contend with the virulent strain of Islamophobia that has so thoroughly tainted Western politics post-9/11. Nor did they have to contend with BDS efforts being made explicitly illegal in a majority of U.S. states, while current BDS efforts do have to face that barrier. This is not to say that public opinion towards Hamas or the Palestinian cause would not have fared better had Hamas not committed these atrocities over the past several days. My point is just that I don't think that difference in public opinion would have led to much of a different material outcome on the ground, particularly in the short-term. \/\/\/yeah, it's always heartening to see countries that have been victims of colonial oppression and outright genocide show solidarity with countries currently experiencing both.\/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:19
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7c Nickel posted:That's an old video and considering he then went on to say that Russia has a historic Right to invade Ukraine, I'm more inclined to say that he's just a contrarian campist crank. You're free to say that, but I don't think it's fair. I'm glad that, as the son of Auschwitz survivors, he is taking the right lessons from his parents' suffering and speaking out against an ongoing genocide - and one that is being carried out by a country that claims to represent his interests as a Jewish person, no less. I don't agree with him on Ukraine, and I think he's at the very least inconsistent (even outright hypocritical) in how he applies his principles when talking about that war. But I don't doubt for a second that he believes very deeply in opposing Israeli apartheid. Chillmatic posted:Ah yes, the holocaust denier and Charlie-Hebdo-Had-It-Coming guy. I very, very strongly doubt that Norm Finkelstein, the son of Auschwitz survivors, has ever denied the Holocaust. quote:He famously has platformed them in the name of “both sides” clown poo poo. Not all deniers claim it never happened… Many of them say “Well if it did, it wasn’t that big of a deal”. Again, he is the son of Auschwitz survivors. He does not deny that the Holocaust happened, nor has he ever suggested that it wasn't a big deal. Majorian fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 23:52
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e: wrong forum
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Oct 14, 2023 05:34
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e: wrong thread AGAIN, sorry!
Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 17:35
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Dandywalken posted:Israel doesnt seem to think it was lol Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? It's not like any nation-state is going to be open about their missile defense system not keeping out all of the slow-moving missiles that they were previously warned about.
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Apr 17, 2024 18:42
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1780683348211376278?t=Jh4THt-jnDuSURNo5Iy9FQ Boy I can’t wait for April 18, when everything somehow magically changes.  (Please shut the gently caress up until April 18)
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Apr 18, 2024 02:30
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Nucleic Acids posted:https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1781736713720565847 Some good news, for a change. LOL at this part of the Axios piece: quote:"Sanctions must not be imposed on the Israel Defense Forces," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Saturday on X, the social media platform formerly known as Twitter. Please, by all means, Bibi, act against these moves. Isolate yourself even further.
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Apr 21, 2024 00:13
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The mainstream media continues to be absolutely and utterly unhinged in its portrayal of the anti-genocide student protests. MSNBC had NYU marketing professor Scott Galloway on "Morning Joe," who had this to say: https://twitter.com/JuliannaFrieman/status/1782744889681179045 Note that Julianna Frieman is a Daily Caller writer, so presumably she approves of what Galloway is saying here. Her tweet undersells how absolutely execrable this segment is, though. Galloway's comparison of what's going on on campuses to someone shouting anti-LGBTQ+ or racist slurs goes completely unchallenged by the host, of course. And this is said to be the POTUS' favorite show. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Apr 23, 2024 |
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Apr 23, 2024 20:56
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Charliegrs posted:I could believe that Israel is using loudspeakers on drones with crying baby sounds but I don't know if it's to lure people out because who the gently caress is going to go outside to investigate a creepy flying baby cry? I dunno, someone who might think a child is trapped under rubble and desperately needs help, because they're human and not complete sociopaths? 
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Apr 25, 2024 16:55
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Israel is an infinitely peelable onion of evil. In the context of the latest horror story to emerge from Gaza, I think the crybaby drone lure seems almost quaint. I wonder what Israel is going to say...  Oh, let's ask the deputy mayor of Jerusalem, who has been making the rounds on Western media lately! https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1783405480947146947  Her response to the host was not exactly convincing, btw: quote:Hassan-Nahoum: “Well, we don’t know what they were doing before their hands were tied behind their backs, do we?”
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Apr 26, 2024 08:28
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