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Marenghi posted:Ukraine is a free country with a professionally training military. There's a bit of a difference between that and a paramilitary force which was formed in an open air prison.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:21
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I wouldn't call the recent attack indiscriminate. They selected a civilian target and sought to murder as many people there as possible.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:34
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Weasling Weasel posted:They didn't have sympathy, but they had apathy at least I guess. The Iceland band at Eurovision, the 'free Palestine' to the tune of sweet Caroline... that poo poo stops. It didn't have any meaningful benefit to the palestinian people, but the level of sympathy Israel will now have will allow them to do stuff ten times worse than before and without any journalistic critiscm. It's like post 9-11 redux, it'll be like Afghanistan and Islamophobia like the early 2000s again. Hope all those twenty year olds they shot and raped were worth it for the cause.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:03
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Some people may not have been posting for a long time but I personally have posts going back to 2015 relating to major events and have been on the pro-Palestine side of every argument. Until today.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:21
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Israel has never given a gently caress about civilians and they have just been handed the perfect justification to destroy Hamas at all costs. There will not be a single building left standing in Gaza.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:17
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Stringent posted:Sinn Fein as well.
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Oct 9, 2023 10:42
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Failed Imagineer posted:They were eminently comparable, though not equivalent
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Oct 9, 2023 10:53
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Failed Imagineer posted:This is such a ridiculous reductive and factually inaccurate summation of the whole political milieu at that time. I was an Irish teenager at the time, I remember Omagh distinctly. I also remember that it wasn't even a Provo attack, and it occurred post -GFA. And though it was the single deadliest Republican attack (note: the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were more individually deadly from the UVF), and there was universal condemnation, it didn't shape the peace process anywhere like earlier incidents e.g. the Docklands, Manchester, and Warrington.
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Oct 9, 2023 11:39
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Yeah. Hamas just gave the IDF the perfect justification for wiping Gaza off the face of the earth and I have no doubt they will make use of it.
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Oct 9, 2023 13:21
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Stringent posted:I mean, call a spade a spade. They're going to attempt genocide.
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Oct 9, 2023 13:45
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I don't think the idea that this was somehow unintended tracks with Hamas proudly parading the stripped corpses of their victims around on social media.
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Oct 9, 2023 14:42
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I think the sheer brutality, the mass and conscious targeting of civilians and the complete lack of any possible argument to justify the attack also make it stand out compared to airstrikes and rocket attacks.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:09
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Stringent posted:As far as figures from actual news sources go it seems the brunt of Hamas's attack was against military units. They've captured several highly ranked members of the IDF.
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Oct 9, 2023 15:21
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The idea that you can brutalize a purely civilian gathering as long as you also separately attacked at least one military installation is loving deranged anyway.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:04
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FlapYoJacks posted:The most infuriating part is that the rave is the headline, not the systematic genocide and constant war crimes/crimes against humanity/outright genocide lust from Israel in response. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 16:34
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Neurolimal posted:We are on day 3 of the D&D candlelight vigil over the rave, which has completely consumed talking about anything else.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:51
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Hamas are not 'providing opposition' to anyone's genocidal aims. Rather, by revelling in cruelty against civilians they have handed Israel's government the perfect justification to wipe out Gaza. How exactly is Hamas going to stop the IDF from levelling every building in the strip or starving the entire population with its blockade?
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Oct 10, 2023 01:52
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Aramis posted:The objective is not to forcibly prevent the genocide, but rather to make the genocide more trouble than it's worth.
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Oct 10, 2023 02:06
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Asking 'what else could Hamas have done' is insane to me because they demonstrated they could do a whole bunch of other things last weekend! They decisively breached containment, overran some IDF positions and were able to capture senior IDF officers. If they had done that without also committing some of the worst atrocities against civilians of the 21st century that would've put Israel in a very difficult situation - Bibi would still have been humiliated by a catastrophic failure, and his government would have to negotiate for the release of the prisoners. But as-is all domestic and international opposition to razing Gaza to the ground has evaporated, and Hamas will be wiped out along with any civilians who are unable to flee (currently this is looking to be 'all of them').
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Oct 10, 2023 08:41
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No-one has been convicted in a court of law but there are several videos of stripped and brutalised female victims that strongly suggest it.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:03
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:According to AJ, Hamas was surprised about how big the backlash was to their initial attack and is trying to do damage control and break the perception that they are indiscriminately targeting civilians. They are concerned that the backlash may have galvanized people to send more aid to Israel and given Israel permission to go even farther in its retaliation.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:36
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The two videos that strongly suggest sexual assault are the one of a woman with a bleeding crotch being taken out of a van in Gaza, and the one with Shani Louk (dead? unconscious?) being paraded naked around Gaza. Neither is definitive proof of rape but both are extremely strong evidence that will almost certainly be corroborated soon. It also seems extremely unlikely that this isn't part of a wider trend given that we have two separate videos. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 22:55
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Hamas certainly killed a bunch of children, and beheaded some victims, but it doesn't seem like there's any source specifically confirming an intersection of the two. e: gotta say though correcting the record about the exact method used to kill babies does not seem like it will win many people over Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 01:02
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I do not think that attempting to downplay, deny or quibble over the details of Hamas' atrocities is going to be an effective strategy. Nobody who read the baby beheading story is going to change their mind if they're told that Hamas actually prefers to shoot babies. Nobody is going to be convinced that Shani Louk was paraded around unconscious in her underwear for perfectly innocent reasons. And no matter how bad things have been in Gaza nobody is going to forgive the perpetrators of these horrible crimes. If you want to have any rhetorical impact whatsoever, you should acknowledge that Hamas have committed irredeemable crimes, but that the vast majority of Gazans or Palestinians were not involved. No matter how awful what Hamas did was it does not justify the wholesale slaughter of everyone in Gaza. Focus on the innocent people who are suffering entirely unfairly, not the guilty.
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Oct 11, 2023 01:32
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Hamas posted many of the videos that are being used as evidence on social media. If "the west" is lying then Hamas would have to be collaborating with them.
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Oct 11, 2023 01:54
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None of the people who keep making these comparisons to the ANC and IRA cannot point to a single incident that had even one-tenth of the civilian casualties that the October 7th attack had, nor which contained anything like the sheer level wanton and gleeful cruelty against civilians with absolutely no relation to the entity they were fighting. There's a reason those resistance movements achieved some degree of success, while Hamas is about to be obliterated along with a substantial portion of the populace it claims to represent.
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Oct 11, 2023 09:45
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Failed Imagineer posted:You're focused on this hobby horse, even though I've previously pointed out that there are much larger structural differences between the NI conflict and I/P. https://www.irishtimes.com/world/mi...truly-horrific/ quote:In the most critical comments made by a Sinn Féin leader to date on a Palestinian organisation – and in what has been received as a change in position by the party leadership – Ms McDonald said she understood perfectly the trauma experienced by victims and relatives of the Hamas attack. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 11:19
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Suggesting the October 7th attack was 'good for the cause' or that 'might makes right' is an idiotic line to take in any case because Israel is much, much more powerful than Hamas! They have the ability and inclination to destroy every building in Gaza and flood all the shelters with tear gas! Any opposition to them doing this will be drowned out by the ongoing revelations of Hamas' atrocities! This was a really loving bad idea even if you ignore the ethics of mass murdering children!
Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 12:05
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Angry Salami posted:A question: Is Israel making any effort to ensure the return of the hostages, or have they just written them off as casualties of war? The indiscriminate bombings seem risky if Hamas still has hundreds of hostages, but I can't imagine the Israeli public would take it in stride that their government has already given up on getting the captives free. https://www.ft.com/content/b3e95dd8-7fe4-4ff4-895d-bbdc098f09fc quote:Israel’s military and civilian leaders have not disclosed what they know about the location of the latest hostages or any plan to try to keep them safe, much less extract them at a time when Israel is bombarding Gaza from air, sea and artillery ahead of a potential ground assault. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 14:18
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Lord Harbor posted:Has Israel made any demands yet? When the US decides to invade or attack some random country, they'll usually at least create a pretext where they make some demand (Afghanistan must hand over Bin Laden, Iraq must open up to weapon inspectors), and then when it's refused (or not) they use it as a causus beli for the invasion. Has Israel made any statements about what they want from Palestine, or are they just dropping any pretense that the bombings aren't the point? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082351 quote:Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said every Hamas member was "a dead man" after the first meeting of his country's emergency government.
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Oct 12, 2023 18:03
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I maintain that Hamas had already hit on a good strategy that they had the power to repeat to a much greater degree here - capturing soldiers. Creating another hostage crisis would've been a very effective strategy if they hadn't also performed atrocities so unspeakably horrible that almost everyone in Israel now wants nothing more than to see every member of Hamas (and in many cases, the Gazans they see as collectively responsible) perish in agony. And also alienated many international voices who would've otherwise spoken out against excessive Israeli reprisals. And also made it much, much harder for anyone still on Gaza's side to argue that Israel's response is wildly disproportionate.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:21
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Kagrenak posted:I think Irony be my Shield meant it lessens the rhetorical and persuasive position of those condemning Israeli atrocities against Gaza. Which I think is unfortunately and fairly clearly true if one takes a brief look at the state of public discussion. Morally and ethically I agree with you that it changes nothing about Israel's conduct.
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Oct 12, 2023 22:39
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Victar posted:The blog post "But not like this - On living and dying with ghosts" by Sam Kriss has been posted in this thread. I'm reposting the link because it is a direct, well-spoken, and comprehensive rebuttal to the implication that violence against civilians is acceptable. I am interpreting Nix Panicus' phrases "justifies any and all violence that prisoners inflict upon their captors" and "the nation of Israel should be destroyed" to mean "violence against civilians is acceptable". I don't see any other way to interpret those claims.
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Oct 13, 2023 15:18
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:I mean, Hamas can hardly be blamed as the only one to conflate civilian and combatant.
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Oct 14, 2023 15:23
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Ultimately it's beneficial to Israel if the debate stays on the particulars of the Hamas attack (as opposed to the ongoing slaughter in Gaza), and generating confusion around shocking but not particularly relevant details is a good way to do that.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:56
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Presumably you can access Israeli or Egyptian networks if you're near the border of Gaza? e: yeah the article posted above says you can at least in some places. quote:Palestinian internet providers can only offer 2G network services, which is much more sluggish than 3G and also more vulnerable to security attacks due to weak encryption. A previous UN report indicated some Gaza residents living near the Israeli border could access 3G and 4G networks from Israeli operators, although the current situation is unclear. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 01:01
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I can definitely believe someone in the IDF told Hersh that they can defeat Hamas easily and without a costly ground invasion (so they might as well surrender now). I don't believe that's actually true, however.
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Oct 15, 2023 13:42
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Typo posted:Not so sure about that one chief https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/sympathies-for-the-israelis-palestinian-conflict July - Palestinian sympathy polling at 24%, Israelis at 10%. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2023/10/16/b8bd3/1 Today - Palestinians polling at 17%, Israelis at 21%.
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Oct 16, 2023 19:42
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Comstar posted:Israel is putting in the troops for a surface attack. It's taking them a long time to do it, presumably because
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Oct 17, 2023 10:19
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Main Paineframe posted:Typically it means a full-scale ground invasion goes in and occupies the areas near the border, sends some raids deeper into Gaza to capture or kill some militants, destroys a bunch of infrastructure they claim was being used by Hamas, maybe wipes out a neighborhood or two just for the hell of it, and then unilaterally declares victory and pulls out before they take too many casualties. The whole thing usually lasts about two weeks.
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Oct 17, 2023 14:27
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