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Last few pages" posted:...ethical complaints and idealism Ok, so it's been discussed and explained here by many intelligent posters why the most positive resolutions to the conflict are not practical. Ethnostates, ideological divide, resentment, apathy etc. The situation is bad, insoluble and will be a net inconvenience and drain on resources for everyone involved as long as it is allowed to continue. The de-facto situation is the marginalization of Palestinians by land, political and economic means. Israel is already making progress on this, with physical barriers and security operations mostly insulating them from the problem. Palestinians are not finding any external support, gaining internal unity, or growing economically stronger. The situation has stabilized, but there is then the risk that it will freeze in this standoff forever. This isn't good for Israel to pay for, nor generations of Palestinians to suffer under. Is there any way realistic way for for Israel to accelerate the marginalization of Palestinians, or even a pretext to expel them entirely? Israel has historically benefited from hot wars to expand or to dissolve unfavorable stand-offs. Maybe the west bank could somehow be conflated with ISIS, for example, with fighters fleeing from their defeat in Syria?
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Nov 9, 2017 00:32
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Hobologist posted:No, if someone is in my house and I don't want him there, the remedy under US law is to evict him, not to have him buy me a new house. Who would be doing the evicting in the I/P case? The UN? Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 01:57
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Morally superior position is wanting the least-cost highest-value outcome as soon as possible regardless of the distribution of sorrows. It's not like anyone has a horse in this race, and even if you do, you should bet on the fastest one. If you favor a tribe like in a football match, then you are a bad. So what's the easiest way to get the Palestinians out that doesn't get a US/UN kibosh? Maybe we can crowdfund support for Isis in the West Bank (Kickstarter hell cannons, AirBnB homes, Uber day jobs). If Palestinians can't get the terror up then someone else can. Maybe bankroll some dudes in Gaza to fly to the USA and mass shoot a football stadium. Maybe volunteer as a teacher in PA because the current ones aren't promoting nearly enough militancy? Kids know that the Jews killed Farfour but they just do nothing about it. Then Israel teams up with Trump in the war on rooting out bad dudes. The odd Palestinian teen will fight and the odd rocket will fall on Megadim and it would only take one really cute Israeli girl to die on camera to deus vult the dimittenda determinata. Palestinians join their arab brothers in the fast growing professions of displaced person and international refugee. Then they are Germany's problem. This thread can finally close after this thousands-page circular gripe-fest. You, regular posters, have lost a lot of resources yourself. Most of you live in real places and you speak (or at least write) a real language; your time is more valuable than this issue, even if you work at Safeway. If I don't know what I'm talking about than please tell me how to fix this. I won't actually do anything but it will bring psychological closure and I will thank you. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Nov 10, 2017 |
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Nov 10, 2017 06:36
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Polygynous posted:I smell toast Stroke or someone named toast? I'm fritzgryphon. Made new account when probated for drunkpost. Which means I've been made to read the rules at least once. Please put content when posting. It looks like this.   edit: Jacknife (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 10, 2017 07:22
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One day at a time.
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Nov 10, 2017 07:58
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botany posted:i feel like i should cut this out and use it as a case study in an ethics class. I admit that, maybe, glib accelerationist cheerleading is wrong for this thread. I mean, no one posts here because they are impassively curious about the conflict (unless you get lost and wander in). The thread title is 'Liar, liar, suit's on fire', which implies the focus of the thread is about chronicling the back and forth morality play? If so, I apologize for not appreciating that. In that case, the conflict shouldn't resolve; it's a source of sad events and moral outrage that we can use to define and signal our virtues and world views. If the conflict resolves, it'll do so in a frighteningly arbitrary way (with ominous unease when the world just keeps turning afterward), making the spectators feel like their opinions didn't matter, and that the world is chaotic and unfair. Right vs wrong is much more psychologically useful, and what better place to find it where you've got literal black and white locked in a cage match? Dead Reckoning posted:I want to get off Mr. Bibi's Wild Border Wall Ride.  if anyone who lost family there ever reads this thread. Don't forget to get your dead child plushie at the gift shop. 
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Nov 11, 2017 02:00
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What's happening guys? Are there any stories besides these: Explosives accident or drone strike: https://www.rt.com/news/412842-palestine-israel-drone-gaza/ Rockets and counter-strikes: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-strikes-2-hamas-targets-after-gaza-rocket-fire/ Guard stabbed in heart / effigies: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...p-a8102096.html 
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Dec 14, 2017 00:23
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You might make people sad.   Is better.
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Dec 14, 2017 05:09
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I tried to buy a McDouble with hunger, but they wouldn't give it to me. I complained to one of the other customers, but they refused to get a McDouble on my behalf. I got my stick and told the staff that giving me a free McDouble was their best bet. Please send help; I told the cops about my broken childhood but they still won't let me go. Please don't fight, guys. This will all be decided in the 3rd Intifada.
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Dec 14, 2017 21:44
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quote:A Palestinian who stabbed an Israeli Border Police officer in the upper torso before being shot, died on Friday evening, the Palestinian Authority health ministry said, naming him as Mohammed Aqal, 29. Knifeman dead, knifedman lives! In second intifada, Israel had 5-1 K/D ratio. If they can improve on this, it will be a sign they are winning in the long term. 
Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 23:09
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Even a broken clock spinning in a moral vacuum is right indeterminate superposition times and settling on a final answer as it's slowed by the aether. The hand simultaneously points to God and the fax on the ground. Where are (is) the hell dog(s)? Where are the Doom monsters from the other side of the gates of hell? The additional days of rage are more like additional waste of space, on the news feed, we read. What is Hamas even doing? Biding their time? Locked into petty infighting? The stabby guy had a fake suicide vest. They can afford suicidal martyrs more than a hardware store trip? The Vegas shooter was damned, but he was one man, able enough to take half a company of souls to the promised land. Ameri-can't? American. Post a comment on this webzone if you think the Palestinians have a plan to defeat the Jews. Maybe we just have to patient. They're up to something. That something is sucking. Jew is master race. Pally self, erase. Push button. Fake bomb genuine bullet.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:12
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Seek help Avshalom. Hah, thank you!  I'll work to someday approach that standard.During the first month of the (second) Intifada, 141 Palestinians were killed and 5,984 were wounded while 12 Israelis were killed and 65 wounded. Wikipedia No gimmick, just concerned. When Sharon visited the temple in 2000, the violence in the first two weeks was much greater than now. Either Palestine is getting weaker or the Israeli status of Jerusalem has largely been accepted (despite bellicose words). I understand that it might take some time for the organized militants to plan operations, but police and protester casualties are still very low. Despite having differences of opinion, surely we can agree that Jerusalem normalization is bad for the thread. Maybe the best militants are still busy in Syria. ---- Someone asked why the USA gives aid to Israel and what they get; a theory. The USA bribes Egypt to play nice ($6 billion in 1979 and decreasing since), so they don't endanger the Suez Canal. Maybe they pay Israel for the same reason?
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Dec 20, 2017 01:43
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Cat Mattress posted:Could you refrain from commenting the situation like it's a blood sport for your entertainment? Very well, but only text commentary. I reserve the right to make shops (PG-rated).  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 21, 2017 21:50
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australiar posted:i control israel Welcome, friend. What are your plans?
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Dec 28, 2017 19:40
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XMNN posted:https://twitter.com/MissOginy/status/946690188675137536?s=17 I think Rita is implying that Israel is the civilized and safer side. They have organized police, military, and an early warning and interceptor missile system that defends like a deity. Palestinians are dying in the reprisals to these rocket attacks while simultaneously fighting amongst themselves to halt same rocket attacks (and failing). https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-may-be-fighting-a-losing-battle-to-stop-gaza-rocket-fire/
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Dec 30, 2017 18:05
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Potential BFF posted:IN BATTLE THERE IS NO LAW Very nice but spoiler NWS please.  e. I found one of the arrested Palestinian kids. 
Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 00:24
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Panzeh posted:How effective at creating peace is the PA's giving Israel largely what it wants(security cooperation) without getting any real concessions? If you want to know why Israeli governments have no interest in making concessions- it's because the PA has largely already given up the only leverage they have left. Forcing IDF troops to be even more active in the territories would actually put pressure on them in a meaningful way, but the PA leadership has chosen a meager 'legitimacy' in exchange for having any kind of bargaining position. Israel paying the PA bigwigs directly for peace might be the easiest way to make it happen. You can't deposit rage in your Swiss account, nor do palaces build themselves. Abbas is probably tired of these intifadas intifering with his me time. Then I/P grows together in harmony like yin and yang (Palestine being the two dots).
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Jan 5, 2018 00:00
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Main Paineframe posted:Seems like "peace" means something different to you than it does to me and everyone else. Peace is freedom from threat (in this example, from an opponent). A concession to the opponent, particularly one which might weaken your position, would be sub-optimal unless: a) The opponent makes a credible threat that requires pacification (and can be trusted to be pacified by the concession). b) A compromise can be reached to mutual benefit. This is the same as a) but not zero sum. Israeli politicians don't believe Palestine is powerful enough to concede to, nor kindred or trustworthy enough to negotiate with. They can more reliably secure peace unilaterally. This is working.
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Jan 16, 2018 00:57
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Don't worry Groovelord, I'm sure -someone- will get it up, and make more skulls for your pile! You're very handsome. May I chew on you?Ytlaya posted:This is a strange perspective that seems to completely ignore whether one side is actually morally in the right or wrong. It does completely ignore that. Just like you do, where you are personally threatened by a frightening, or even just inconvenient, thing. You take the easiest way out. The welfare of your harasser is not important because they are malicious, after all, and unfairly imposing on you. They are the bad guy, for putting you in an uncomfortable position. A beggar, a robber, your employer, your employees. A family member. They will all claim that they are disenfranchised, cheated, discriminated against, and that they have claim on your goods, by some moral right. You could buy some muffins at the supermarket and some rear end in a top hat might accost you, claiming that he had "dibs" on them. Because he saw them first, touched them first. Put them in his basket and then took them out, and then later decided that he wanted them, but you had already purchased them. Isn't it nice that reality disregards this moral nonsense? It seems confusing. You would be correct if the "morality" was imposed by some external power. That's how most people mean it. A parent, a God or some other authority figure (state, judge etc) that will sanction those who transgress. Who would the arbiter be in this case, and would they care about this issue?
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Jan 16, 2018 04:12
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Nebalebadingdong posted:Preen Dog is an idiot who tries to present a realpolitik perspective, except his practical measure of "securing peace" doesn't even support it Violence is at an all time low. The third intifada has failed to materialize so far, even with the Trump Jerusalem thing. Palestinian GDP goes up at a rate in excess of neighboring countries. I'm just a heckler, but I don't see how Israel policy is endangering peace. As usual I hope you or the thread regulars can educate me, because I'm just a bird-dog.
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Jan 16, 2018 04:25
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What use is rising wealth when nobody respects your property rights? Buy guns? Nebalebadingdong posted:"israeli policies are creating peace! there's not even a third intifada!" Hooray! Ytlaya posted:I guess I'm not really sure what you're saying here other than "the Israelis are under the impression they have a good reason for oppressing and committing human rights' abuses against the Palestinians," which is sort of transparently obvious and true of almost every wrong thing the human race has ever done. I'm just suggesting that everyone thinks they're in the right, or rather, that it doesn't matter. The opponent is automatically wrong because they're scaring you. As disinterested observers, it's arrogant to weigh the righteousness of belligerents in a conflict, picking pet good guys and bad. That's really what bothered me, and I post. The belligerents don't care, and will act in their own self interest, just like we all do. If the sides have parallel interests, it's expedient or profitable to cooperate. Otherwise, we take every advantage.
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Jan 17, 2018 05:51
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Look on the bright side. It's possible, In the future, Israeli employees will take sensitivity training so they can feel the appropriate amount of guilt around their Palestinian subordinates. The training will last a whole day. First, a kindly grey imam will teach them about the Palestinian religion and creation myths. They will sing along to a DAM song, if they can stop giggling. They will play rubber dagger tag. Later they will go down to the parking lot, and a food truck will serve "Palestinian" food. They will shoot bottle rockets, and throw stress balls at cars. Each person gets a flecked headscarf to take home. I know it seems dark now but please don't give up hope. This would be the best day at work ever.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:06
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FlamingLiberal posted:The flaw in your example is the idea that there will be Palestinians in the future This is a common refrain here, but even I can't believe they're that helpless. Definitely in a stronger position than North American natives were. Has a culture ever been genocided to the last person? There are always some leftovers that assimilate, but keep their culture, if in name only. Good enough to lead the class. You got to stay positive for things to get better. Once Palestine is weak enough it will at least be possible to negotiate the whole reservation and token reparation arrangement in exchange for peace. Then the Is will still be fascists and Ps will still be victims but they can work together to grow shareholder value without the shooting and crying anymore.
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Mar 12, 2018 19:53
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This works just fine for me. Animals are way more sympathetic than people, especially cool birds. Their innocent victim status is unassailable by any ideology. There is no such thing as a terrorist turtle or a fascist armadillo. Also, the idea of stopping arson wildfires actually seems like a hopeful, achievable goal that a person could be a part of, and proud of. As opposed to, say, I/P peace, which seems impossible and feels depressing. If anyone needs to work on the propaganda, it's Hamas (which, fairly or not, is conflated with all Palestinians, because they were elected). UNICEF sends sponsors pictures of happy kids, with fun pictures and write-ups, not dead ones buried under rubble. No one wants to see that. You'd think it would garner sympathy, but not if it's contrasted with a picture of a toddler wearing a bomb vest and a green headband. Israel doesn't have to brand Palestinians at terrorists when it's done for them, so expertly, for free. Of course, Israel is the target of plenty of negative propaganda, but at least they're smart enough not to produce it themselves. P should re-brand as Ghandi-like, nonviolent figures that just stoicly roll with indignities. Still do the fighting on the side, but the propaganda would only ever show the nonviolent philosopher-monk characters. Act like they have dignity and value, and spectators will want the honorable veneer will rub off on them. Act like they are right and know it, without fighting, and someone might just believe it. Act like they're strong and attractive, not vicious and desperate; people only like underdogs that will win. Defs don't murder a cool bird, and have everyone hate you regardless of the context.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:51
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Just wanted to claim that Israel has a decent propaganda game, and Hamas is sometimes self-deprecating. Sorry. Of course all the actors have reasons to do what they do, and I don't expect them to behave any different. Someone previously suggested that Western pressure was the only way forward in getting an equitable deal in I/P. Which is why I try to offer a comfortable, disinterested point of view that regards it as a reality show. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 23:27
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It still works even if it's fake. Someone made an effective pic. I don't even know who these guys are or what the writing says. Doesn't matter. Also many people will feel inadequate when seeing 5 year olds that are harder than they could ever be.  Give me housing developments and iron domes. And beach babes with service rifles! Protect, grow, build, be better than the other guys. No one is, but it's a narrative that's attractive. BDS is a big negative. 20 pages, not one positive article. Israel is bad, donate or volunteer to (try to) hurt it. There is no upside. How am I supposed to feel attacking a thing, when that thing seems healthy and won't be affected by my efforts? It's not gratifying. Sell me on Palestine, how it can win and how I can be a part. Also the irony of identifying as an anti-thing, and then needing that thing to exist to exist, yourself. Cat Mattress posted:Nobody, nobody has any reason to fire missiles at a zoo and to shoot caged lions. The people who choose to do that are irredeemable psychopathic monsters. That they then choose to do some concern trolling about animals accidentally killed by an uncontrolled fire just shows the depth of their depravity. Right, you publicize it when the other guys do it, and ignore it when your guys do. Everyone's doing what is convenient to their feelings at the moment, and there's no point in trying to line them up on some moral hierarchy. They've all got their rationalizations, and the only real arbiter is tangible consequences, which most of the actors are insulated from. That's why they shoot/ignite animals. What matters is the quality of the rationalizations, and how compelling or attractive they are to other significant actors. Frankly, I'm just annoyed at practical morality (with immediate feedback and consequence) being applied to geopolitical situations where the social structures and forces at play are so much bigger than individuals. Like, you could somehow pick countries or companies or movements or people up and place them on a line from evilest to goodest. When the individuals are just self-interested, and their view of the world is narrow and mostly fiction. Whoever shot a lion was certain it was a good idea, like the guy who tied a fire to a bird, the guy who dresses his kid like Rambo, and the people ITT thinking they can tally what's worst, as if it's up to them to choose, or could do anything about it if they did. TLDR; just watch it burn, no reason to get invested. It's all very interesting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2018 00:45
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Saying there's no point comparing them morally because only their consequences matter. Though I am curious why they would waste the zoo animals.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:06
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You've clearly picked a narrative that appeals to you. Makes you feel some way on some level. I just like to watch. What does it mean when marked journalists and medics are mowed and babies or whatever and Nothing happens. A judge can hand out murder sentences and there's a power structure to implement them. But who will avenge P? It's fascinating. I want to understand it, not shout at the universe that it's all wrong. If (if) Western pressure is vital to stopping Israel then propaganda means everything. Rockets and protests seem to make them stronger.
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Aug 16, 2018 02:28
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So you can't even consider that realpolitik rules, even when if you don't like it? Good night.
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Aug 16, 2018 02:45
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Khan al Ahmar is composed of 5 sites clustered around Highway 1, 10 km East of the armistice line. It offers commanding views of the road from both sides at ranges between 50-500 meters from a patchwork of structures and hills. It's the only town behind the effective front line of Jewish settlements in the area.WeAreTheRomans posted:Well, at least the Palestinians had their day in court Hahahaha. No way Israel would let this exist. It's like a purpose-built ambush spot. And no, the irony of the inhabitants pre-dating (the modern paved version of) the highway is not lost on me.  
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Sep 5, 2018 22:03
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Ultramega posted:IDF were using modern military hardware on apartments and mosques and killing entire families with sidewinder missiles and gatling guns. The Sidewinder is an air to air missile, and the low caliber gatling guns on the Blackhawk and Cobra (the latter retired in 2013) are unsuitable for killing families in any kind of cover. Most helicopter strikes by Israel are done with the laser guided Hellfire missile. An anti-tank missile designed to fight the soviets, it is effective at hitting point targets at distances up to 7 km. It is distinguishable from other anti-tank missiles by it's high arcing flight path, which improves range compared to a straight path, and improves destructive effect by striking the target on it's top surface.   e. gif e2. The Hellfire can also be used against slow moving aerial targets. There are 2 known air kills, both by Israeli Apaches (Iranian UAV and a Cessna 152 crossing from Lebanon). Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 22:19
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Pigeons are kind of pretty and soft and trained ones make good pets. Wild pigeons poop everywhere and hoot at 3 in the morning, they gotta go. It's sad, but it has to be done.
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May 14, 2021 15:25
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Starpluck posted:[b] Not sure if serious but A. Ukraine's interests align with western Europe security and N.American cold war enmity. B. Scale, nature and rate of atrocities in Ukraine are more headline grabbing, comparable to WWII or Bosnia. C. Putin and Russia can be credibly compared to Hitler and Nazi expansion in scale and MO. Hitler and Nazis being the most well known and default Bad Guy ever in pop culture. D. Ukraine has an extremely effective, non-stop PR machine that goes all the way up to the president being a former (and current) actor. Eg. The Eurovision tie-in was amazing. Pretty people singing from the front. No sadness or whining, just plucky, attractive underdogs who need help to fight for Freedom. E. The overall scale of I/P is not big enough to affect a major brands image. An idiot in a hurry does not pay enough attention to know if there are Mcdonalds in I or P. D. History Channel still says Jews are pop culture victims that need protection. I/P is none of these things. No major power's interests align with Palestine, the atrocities are a regulated slow drip, Israel acts like Nazis toward P but is otherwise passable as a friendly democracy, and the P PR machine is abysmal, if they have one at all. Can't even sing along to the music in the P resistance videos, the tempo is so weird. Some of these points can't easily changed, but some of them can, and Ukraine is a good example. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 15:51 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 15:37
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Palestinians used to do wars and stuff but now a rocket or a mosque shooting gets headlines. Is the conflict effectively over? Will there be any interesting developments in the short term? Zionists want Jerusalem to be the capital, when does that happen?
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Jan 31, 2023 00:06
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quote:Israel bad, blowing up concert goers and doing friendly fire If the enemy is mixed in, point blanc with the civilians that they are executing, of course heli gunners are going to fire into the group. The alternative is to just watch the militants discover and kill everyone. And once the gunmen know they've been spotted, they will use the exact same structures and vehicles for concealment as the remaining civilians are. This is a poo poo no-win situation, which the attackers fully intended to create. The IDF was forced to react to the attack and then do a pretty rapid push into hostile urban areas. Its not like the US planning in advance how to pick Iraq apart. Their casualties and friendly fire will be unsurprisingly huge.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:54
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celadon posted:Is there a ratio of Hamas::civilians where you wouldn't just gun a crowd down? Like even at 1% composition Hamas could easily still kill everyone in the crowd given time Yes, you start blasting at everything you think is the threat, or wait for the threat to reduce your friendlies to a level that makes you comfortable with your portion of guilt in the trolley problem. But there wouldn't be any such calulation in reality. The attack force size and composition was unknown, and IDFs goal would simply be to halt the incursion with all force available. Wasting time trying to snipe one attacker or even distinguish them means others can advance further. Everyone looks the same in thermal, and a captured civilian is much worse strategically than a dead one. The chopper crews are basically God, but on the flip side, everything looks like a manpad and a rifle bullet can kill them through the windshield. For any hope of survival, civilians would have to hide until ground forces could retake the area and ID them face to face, which is seen in video of the aftermath. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 23:26
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Israeli leadership says months more fighting, and that borders will change. Even the most moderate Israeli doesn't like rocket attacks, no matter how weak. Even ITT the 2 state solution is dead. The line has been moving in I's favor for most of history. Correct me, but aren't these interesting questions? When and how will a cease fire be forced, by who? Who will make it stick, or will IDF continue until physically exhausted? Where will the border finally end up after talks, between who? Does each side gain or lose sponsors? How will the I/P demo change? The fact I is mask off massacring without bothering to hide it shows how free they are to move forward. The politicians say whatever on TV, but to the troops say "advance, advance, before they make us stop", like the 6-Day War. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Dec 16, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 19:43
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:What would the competent approach of Hamas look like? Wait quietly as Palestine is ethnically cleansed in a slow(er) and quiet(er) genocide, rather than a louder and faster one? Secure and expand Palestine's borders by force, or enlist sponsors to do it. Outdo the Zionists at their own game. Not saying it's practical, but anything less just changes the timetable.
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Mar 21, 2024 19:10
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Rules based order is useful because it codifies the privileges of the powerful, and also the privileges of the oppressed. This lets everyone relax and enjoy what they can get. If a participant thinks it deserves more than the current order allows, it can use violence to change the order. This is risky for the usurper and costly for everyone involved. Once a new power balance is adequately demonstrated, exhausted combatants will gladly accept a new, equally unequal order. People respect laws not because they are fair but because the gap between what they want and what they have is not big enough to justify the risk and effort of fighting for more. In civil society, participants are physically closer and more accountable to each other, and incentivized to behave "fairly". You don't harm your neighbor because they can tangibly retaliate. You promote peaceful norms hoping to also enjoy peace. You limit your potential gains and enjoy what you have, and are glad for it, because you can sleep soundly. In geopolitics, there is enough distance and separation between participants, and between those who set policy and those who suffer the consequences of policy, that they behave more Machiavellian. It is the same reason why you might give a local beggar some money, but wouldn't consider to give that money to a much more disadvantaged person halfway around the world. The alternative to rules based order is violence. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 22:39
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