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Kim Jong Il posted:Where have I lied? 
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Nov 7, 2017 14:38
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Lady Morgaga posted:Here you go Farfour!
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Nov 7, 2017 14:42
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Last few pages" posted:...ethical complaints and idealism Ok, so it's been discussed and explained here by many intelligent posters why the most positive resolutions to the conflict are not practical. Ethnostates, ideological divide, resentment, apathy etc. The situation is bad, insoluble and will be a net inconvenience and drain on resources for everyone involved as long as it is allowed to continue. The de-facto situation is the marginalization of Palestinians by land, political and economic means. Israel is already making progress on this, with physical barriers and security operations mostly insulating them from the problem. Palestinians are not finding any external support, gaining internal unity, or growing economically stronger. The situation has stabilized, but there is then the risk that it will freeze in this standoff forever. This isn't good for Israel to pay for, nor generations of Palestinians to suffer under. Is there any way realistic way for for Israel to accelerate the marginalization of Palestinians, or even a pretext to expel them entirely? Israel has historically benefited from hot wars to expand or to dissolve unfavorable stand-offs. Maybe the west bank could somehow be conflated with ISIS, for example, with fighters fleeing from their defeat in Syria?
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Nov 9, 2017 00:32
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Kim Jong Il posted:This isn't how US law works at least, so your point about justice is wrong. If something can't realistically be returned, equivalent monetary consideration is the usual remedy. And no, it can't be returned. Mass expulsions was a bad idea in 1948, it was a bad idea when it happened to Mizrahim, and it'd be a bad idea today. History proves there is no way to do this without horrific levels of human suffering. No, if someone is in my house and I don't want him there, the remedy under US law is to evict him, not to have him buy me a new house.
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Nov 9, 2017 01:39
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Hobologist posted:No, if someone is in my house and I don't want him there, the remedy under US law is to evict him, not to have him buy me a new house. Who would be doing the evicting in the I/P case? The UN? Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 01:57
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Preen Dog posted:Who would be doing the evicting in the I/P case? The UN? In the miraculous world where such a thing could actually happen, it would be the IDF like they did at Yamit.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:23
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Hobologist posted:No, if someone is in my house and I don't want him there, the remedy under US law is to evict him, not to have him buy me a new house. We're not talking about the West Bank, we're talking about Israel. If you literally mean this about Israel, then congrats, you've proved what I was saying. Nebalebadingdong posted:This is a lie Lying requires intentionality, it's what I believe to be true, and it is a literal reading of the implications of the BDS movement's demands, so it is true. Your beliefs in practice mean endless misery and suffering for Palestinians and Israelis, and hence, are monstrous. fool_of_sound posted:But enough about zionists A hallmark of this conflict is the hypocrisy. There's absolutely no difference in the positions of Barghouti and Bennett except they're on opposing sides. They want the same things despite their rhetoric otherwise - racially pure ethnostates. If people actually advocated for what's best for the Palestinians, they'd want them to have the safety and security of a two state solution along the international consensus framework, not fighting Israel until eternity because of revanchist demands. It's very strange that a loud minority supports this insane position, but thankfully actual Palestinians largely reject it.
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Nov 10, 2017 04:54
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Kim Jong Il posted:Lying requires intentionality, it's what I believe to be true, and it is a literal reading of the implications of the BDS movement's demands, so it is true. what are words, even e: also lol the morally superior position is to only want one side to suffer, clearly
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Nov 10, 2017 05:29
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Kim Jong Il posted:Lying requires intentionality Wilful blindness is a form of deception.
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Nov 10, 2017 05:35
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Morally superior position is wanting the least-cost highest-value outcome as soon as possible regardless of the distribution of sorrows. It's not like anyone has a horse in this race, and even if you do, you should bet on the fastest one. If you favor a tribe like in a football match, then you are a bad. So what's the easiest way to get the Palestinians out that doesn't get a US/UN kibosh? Maybe we can crowdfund support for Isis in the West Bank (Kickstarter hell cannons, AirBnB homes, Uber day jobs). If Palestinians can't get the terror up then someone else can. Maybe bankroll some dudes in Gaza to fly to the USA and mass shoot a football stadium. Maybe volunteer as a teacher in PA because the current ones aren't promoting nearly enough militancy? Kids know that the Jews killed Farfour but they just do nothing about it. Then Israel teams up with Trump in the war on rooting out bad dudes. The odd Palestinian teen will fight and the odd rocket will fall on Megadim and it would only take one really cute Israeli girl to die on camera to deus vult the dimittenda determinata. Palestinians join their arab brothers in the fast growing professions of displaced person and international refugee. Then they are Germany's problem. This thread can finally close after this thousands-page circular gripe-fest. You, regular posters, have lost a lot of resources yourself. Most of you live in real places and you speak (or at least write) a real language; your time is more valuable than this issue, even if you work at Safeway. If I don't know what I'm talking about than please tell me how to fix this. I won't actually do anything but it will bring psychological closure and I will thank you. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Nov 10, 2017 |
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Nov 10, 2017 06:36
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Preen Dog posted:Morally superior position is wanting the least-cost highest-value outcome as soon as possible regardless of the distribution of sorrows. It's not like anyone has a horse in this race, and even if you do, you should bet on the fastest one. I smell toast
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Nov 10, 2017 06:51
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Polygynous posted:I smell toast Stroke or someone named toast? I'm fritzgryphon. Made new account when probated for drunkpost. Which means I've been made to read the rules at least once. Please put content when posting. It looks like this.   edit: Jacknife (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 10, 2017 07:22
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Maybe you need to post drunk less friend Edit: also you obviously didn't read the rules closely enough NLJP fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Nov 10, 2017 |
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Nov 10, 2017 07:43
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One day at a time.
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Nov 10, 2017 07:58
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NLJP posted:Maybe you need to post drunk less friend
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Nov 10, 2017 08:27
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Dead Reckoning posted:Honestly he makes some interesting points. Has anyone tried getting the leadership of Likud and Hamas frat pledge wasted together? Sure, then they can stumble into the nearest Wendy's and work it out over a few Baconators.
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Nov 10, 2017 08:43
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I was thinking more a wall-sized map of the Levant, a whole box of crayons, and a lot of really good coke.
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Nov 10, 2017 08:57
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Dead Reckoning posted:I was thinking more a wall-sized map of the Levant, a whole box of crayons, and a lot of really good coke. Not gonna lie, Hassan Nasrallah looks like a guy who knows how to party. You will, of course, have to invite a few more regional players.
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Nov 10, 2017 09:08
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Ain't no party like an I/P genocide party 'cause the I/P genocide party never stops.
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Nov 10, 2017 09:11
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I want to get off Mr. Bibi's Wild Border Wall Ride.
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Nov 10, 2017 09:33
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Kim Jong Il posted:Lying requires intentionality, it's what I believe to be true, No, you believe that refugees must be kept out because they are dangerous to the national character. You also WANT to believe that you're a tolerant, nice person. So you deliberately mischaracterize BDS and toss out platitudes like "Immigrants are great" and "I support the two state solution" so that you can try to look like a reasonable liberal. That's cowardice. Stop it. Nebalebadingdong fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Nov 10, 2017 |
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Nov 10, 2017 12:43
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Preen Dog posted:Morally superior position is wanting the least-cost highest-value outcome as soon as possible regardless of the distribution of sorrows. It's not like anyone has a horse in this race, and even if you do, you should bet on the fastest one. i feel like i should cut this out and use it as a case study in an ethics class.
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Nov 10, 2017 12:51
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botany posted:i feel like i should cut this out and use it as a case study in an ethics class. Yeah I've been marvelling at that all afternoon. I liebhasse that passage.
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Nov 10, 2017 15:29
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botany posted:i feel like i should cut this out and use it as a case study in an ethics class. I admit that, maybe, glib accelerationist cheerleading is wrong for this thread. I mean, no one posts here because they are impassively curious about the conflict (unless you get lost and wander in). The thread title is 'Liar, liar, suit's on fire', which implies the focus of the thread is about chronicling the back and forth morality play? If so, I apologize for not appreciating that. In that case, the conflict shouldn't resolve; it's a source of sad events and moral outrage that we can use to define and signal our virtues and world views. If the conflict resolves, it'll do so in a frighteningly arbitrary way (with ominous unease when the world just keeps turning afterward), making the spectators feel like their opinions didn't matter, and that the world is chaotic and unfair. Right vs wrong is much more psychologically useful, and what better place to find it where you've got literal black and white locked in a cage match? Dead Reckoning posted:I want to get off Mr. Bibi's Wild Border Wall Ride.  if anyone who lost family there ever reads this thread. Don't forget to get your dead child plushie at the gift shop. 
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Nov 11, 2017 02:00
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Preen Dog posted:The thread title is 'Liar, liar, suit's on fire', which implies the focus of the thread is about chronicling the back and forth morality play? If so, I apologize for not appreciating that. No, I changed the thread's title to this because Bibi was being investigated for malfeasance and also his suit caught on fire. It was a joke. Then I got demodded and nobody bothered changing it to something more topical since.
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Nov 11, 2017 02:03
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YessssssPreen Dog posted:Don't forget to get your dead child plushie at the gift shop.
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Nov 11, 2017 02:12
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Is there anything new on the Bibi corruption front
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Nov 11, 2017 04:22
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FlamingLiberal posted:Is there anything new on the Bibi corruption front Police believe they have conclusive evidence in Netanyahu graft case: report quote:Israeli police believe they have sufficient evidence to back up at least some charges of which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been accused, the Haaretz daily reported on Monday. So maybe? 
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Nov 11, 2017 04:29
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I was going to say, it's been several months since it sounded like they were going to charge him but nothing has happened yet.
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Nov 11, 2017 04:34
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FlamingLiberal posted:I was going to say, it's been several months since it sounded like they were going to charge him but nothing has happened yet. They took him in for a fifth round of questioning the other day. So maybe this time something will happen. Or..... maybe not?
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Nov 11, 2017 04:37
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Netanyahu is very slippery, the man does not use cellphones or computers, doesn't carry a credit card, is surrounded by lackeys who don't mind taking the fall for him, has the State Attorney in his pocket and the new chief of police is also his own personal appointment. Even if the police investigators have an earnest desire to prosecute him it's an uphill struggle.
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Nov 11, 2017 11:37
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Netanyahu is very slippery, the man does not use cellphones or computers, doesn't carry a credit card, is surrounded by lackeys who don't mind taking the fall for him, has the State Attorney in his pocket and the new chief of police is also his own personal appointment. Safe money is on them getting fired as opposed to Bibi getting prosecuted. That said, Ya'alon said if nothing comes of it he'll come clean with everything he knows so there might be enough public outrage even if there's no trial or anything.
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Nov 11, 2017 11:50
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Nebalebadingdong posted:No, you believe that refugees must be kept out because they are dangerous to the national character. Nothing I've said has indicated this, and I've indicated the direct opposite. Every state should have 100% open borders. In the interim, it's unfair to single out some countries for betraying this ideal paradigm and not others. quote:You also WANT to believe that you're a tolerant, nice person. So you deliberately mischaracterize BDS and toss out platitudes like "Immigrants are great" and "I support the two state solution" so that you can try to look like a reasonable liberal. That's cowardice. Stop it. How have I mischaracterized BDS? I think immigrants are great and I support the two state solution, and have a giant paper trail on both of those topics. Do you have single shred of evidence that I oppose either of those things? No, because you're just smearing anyone who argues against your right wing chest pounding. You support policies that will lead to endless war and mass deaths along ethnic and sectarian lines. Either own it, or stop supporting stupid policies and start supporting the peace process.
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Nov 13, 2017 01:50
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No two state solution is viable unless Israel not only cedes half of Jerusalem and all settlements in the West Bank, but parts of Israel proper as well. You clearly oppose all of those things as genocide, so your ostensible solution is hollow.
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Nov 13, 2017 01:55
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fool_of_sound posted:No two state solution is viable unless Israel not only cedes half of Jerusalem and all settlements in the West Bank, but parts of Israel proper as well. You clearly oppose all of those things as genocide, so your ostensible solution is hollow. Come again?
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Nov 13, 2017 01:57
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Come again? Gaza and the West Bank need to have territorial contiguity, or else their sovereignty is threatened.
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Nov 13, 2017 01:59
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fool_of_sound posted:Gaza and the West Bank need to have territorial contiguity, or else their sovereignty is threatened. How do you expect this to work, exactly? The West Bank and Gaza are separated by Israel proper, it would require either destroying its physical contiguity (so its sovereignty is threatened, if we believe you, so goodbye to that), or somehow apportioning some kind of border zone along the borders of Egypt and Jordan through Eilat. Neither of these is viable, which is why this has never been any part of any draft proposed by any side to two-state negotiations. Palestine would not be the only non-contiguous sovereign country, anyway. Quite a few countries have exclaves, Kaliningrad being the most famous one.
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Nov 13, 2017 02:06
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The relevant issue is the territorial integrity of any west bank state and not magic pie in the sky land bridges to Gaza.
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Nov 13, 2017 02:14
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Disinterested posted:The relevant issue is the territorial integrity of any west bank state and not magic pie in the sky land bridges to Gaza. That doesn't require handing over parts of "Israel proper", though, which is what fool_of_sound is asserting.
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Nov 13, 2017 02:16
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Kim Jong Il posted:Nothing I've said has indicated this, and I've indicated the direct opposite. Every state should have 100% open borders. In the interim, it's unfair to single out some countries for betraying this ideal paradigm and not others. I am in favor of open borders and open immigration in every country, but we have to #BuildTheWall and keep the Mexicans out because there's just too much gosh-darned ethnic strife when they're around.
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Nov 13, 2017 02:22
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