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Jaxyon posted:Hey while we're talking about wanton cruelty to civilians is the IDF still bombing the last existing hospital in Gaza or is it already rubble Well, some IDF guy on twitter today posted a video of them blowing up what I believe was the last mostly intact university campus in Palestine, so both Palestinians and Israelis are now safe from those terrible college campuses thanks to the heroic actions of the IDF. But they're very sorry about the latest hostage they killed.
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Jan 18, 2024 02:07
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If you look up the context of the Houthi slogan, on the Houthis wiki pages, their leaders have claimed that the slogan is intended to refer to the governments of Israel and the United States and not Jews or Americans generally. Regardless if you buy that or not, we just got done backing a genocide carried out against them so I expect their rhetoric to be extreme. Jews after the holocaust attempt to plan and said much worse against the Germans and I think it’s understandable. At the end of the day they are at least doing something to attempt to stop a genocide and we are abetting it. Also, crocodile tears about women or slavery is Yemen from Americans is interesting indeed given on the low estimate the US 400k modern slaves to the 60k in Yemen, and on high estimates has 1 million, which puts it in more slaves per capita than Yemen even before you count prison labor we have vastly more slaves per capita, which directly descended from legalized slavery or the quasi legality of using offshore slavery by US companies. Again, the country that is actually doing more slavery is claiming the moral high ground to justify violence, and I think this is racist and vile. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/19/us-modern-slavery-report-global-slavery-index https://www.vera.org/news/slavery-is-still-legal-for-two-million-people-in-the-u-s
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Jan 21, 2024 18:02
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I’m saying bringing this up in order to justify why the US should bomb the Houthis or why their actions in regards to Israel specifically are not justified on those grounds while US actions are justified, are irrelevant to this discussion. And it’s really hard to believe people suddenly deciding “all sides are bad” and suddenly taking a stand over issues they previously overlooked when their side was doing it and continues to do it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 18:31
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Civilized Fishbot posted:That's not why I brought up anything about the Houthis. Nobody is “supporting” the Houthis as a good regime. We support actions taken to stop genocide. I could swear this is a copy paste find and replace Taliban>Houthi from the early 00’s whenever someone brought up opposition to the invasion of Afghanistan. I have a hard time believing you are remotely consistent or principled about this because everything you’re saying about the Houthi’s is more true for the US, Israel, and the Gulf states but I don’t think you’d go to the mat on why they can never be supported regardless of context. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 18:53
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Grip it and rip it posted:What an absolutely pointless and useless metric to use. "Better than the IDF" describes a massive portion of humanity, and does little to distinguish whether a group is responsible for illegal or reprehensible activity. Kchama posted:I'm not sure what language you speak that can stuff so much meaning into a single word? In the plain Arabic he says "Jews", not "the Jewish Elite". If there's that much to be inferred, I don't think a non-Yemeni could divine it. It really comes across as you trying to shove your own meaning into what he says to try and protect him. I don't think he'd appreciate it. If you freaks are going to call me out and re-litigate this after crying crocodile tears to get me banned once you can read the loving Wikipedia article on the slogan, which cities Houthi leaders explaining it. You were the one who cynically said that my seeing the obvious use of anti-Arab troupes like “they hate women” or “they do slavery” was “actually the real racism” and the idea that you’re deeply concerned about Yemeni people so much we have to bomb them, it is hard to believe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slo...31604;%D9%90%2C If Americans wanted the moral high ground in regards to Yemen, perhaps we should not have armed the Saudis to kill hundreds of thousands and enforce mass starvation. I’m willing to give them a little leeway because of that when it comes to them being strident or their rhetoric being bad. I don’t know if this is off topic but fascinating that neither of you found the “they have slaves” racist or an anti-Arab troupe when they have fewer slaves than the US per capita Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 16:49
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Kchama posted:I didn’t mention this earlier, but you did not read your own Wikipedia link that you demanded everyone read to prove yourself correct. Yes, much of their rhetoric is bad. However, the mountain the starved Yemeni child corpses you’re standing on, my fellow American current or former service member, is not the high ground. I don’t really want to litigate this poo poo until someone responds to my PMs about the earlier thing, you in particular called me out by name and you really leaned into the pearl clutching and cynical “it is you who are the real racist” during this same argument in GiP. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 22, 2024 17:02
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Paladinus posted:'No-no, I only mean the bad [members of an ethnic/religious group] who are part of a shadowy cabal pulling strings behind the scenes, of course, and I don't even want them dead just to stop corrupting our glorious nation with their poisonous ideology' is in itself not even a dog whistle, it's a blaring fire alarm. I don't know why you would argue that it's a reasonable stance regardless of who the target is. Not to mention that the statements being defended are far more explicit than that, and you have to look for caveats in other places to find something resembling a veneer of deniability. The level of naiveté on display is truly staggering. I guess when Israel says they only target militants and try really hard to minimise civilian casualties, it's also completely true, despite them openly calling Gazans animals. The whole animal thing? Oh, you know, cats are animals and they are really nice, so maybe they didn't mean anything bad by it, who's to say? Plus, I don't even speak Hebrew, maybe they meant literally the opposite thing. The context is that problematic language is being used by people who just survived a genocide perpetrated with US backing claiming to be acting to stop another genocide with US, versus problematic language people using it to justify the genocide. This is every bit as ridiculous as claiming black power and white power are equivalently offensive slogans.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:13
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World Famous W posted:i do it for the love of the game
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Jan 29, 2024 01:16
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Jaxyon posted:What is the equivilent of ministers in US government? Seems pretty straightforward as a combination of Attorney General and DHS Secretary, but like most countries I don't think Israel has all sorts of state and municipal police forces in a totally separate chain of command. So terrifyingly more powerful
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Jan 30, 2024 02:01
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The sanctions against settlers a complete loving joke, but, but, I can guarantee a few of these he worst people on earth alive today will have an absolute loving meltdown about it anyway. Would rather we just start bombing the IDF until they stop killing civilians but hey it’s the little pleasures
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Feb 2, 2024 06:17
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kiminewt posted:I'd rather the US just sanctioned them to hell so they'll be forced to stop and no one will get killed but hey I have family members in the IDF. I get where you’re coming from because I know a few people on both sides of the war but “no one would be killed” is a weird framing of the stakes involved here.
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Feb 2, 2024 14:25
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Kalit posted:Is this in response to me? If so, I can guarantee that much more than 50% of us in D&D think Israel has gone too far. Which ties into my point of D&D being much more left than the general populace. How is any of this relevant? What is the point you are trying to make? Could you explain why it is so important that the IDF could sustain or not without US aid or what relevance the difference between public opinion vs here is to the point you’re actually trying to make?
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Feb 15, 2024 20:49
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Marenghi posted:The Israeli regime shows more of their commonality with the old Nazi regime. The contempt for (perceived) weakness masking deep fear and the belief that social status is a reflection of righteousness is the root of fascism, the obsession or righteousness of the chosen group which is usually talked about as the root of it is secondary. Hitler increasingly expressed contempt for the German people as the war turned against him for failing.
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Feb 19, 2024 18:04
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https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1759779892634202420 Well this seems bad but not unexpected at this stage unfortunately
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Feb 20, 2024 06:09
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quote:Israel/Palestine on the other hand is very complicated, has a very long history, and, as my own involvement in this thread has shown, can be deeply unwelcoming to those who don't actively champion one side or the other. It is not complicated.
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Mar 5, 2024 07:58
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A million words to say “Okay yeah when you drill down I’m a just a run of the mill Zionist but I feel bad about it, also let this little genocide go through, Israel will become a wonderful multi-ethnic paradise after we get done this this last one, I promise” We found the calmest Hitler I’ve ever seen bravo
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Mar 13, 2024 19:21
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nightsister posted:While we assume Israel is a European monoculture, Israeli culture has also become multiracial and multicultural between all the types of Jews (Sephardic, Mizrahi, Yemenite, Ethiopian) who have emigrated there. While we throw around “apartheid”, there are also a number of non-Jewish Arab Israeli citizens who certainly experience racism but are not literal second-class citizens the way the people of the Occupied Territories are. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel Oh, word?
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Mar 13, 2024 19:32
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There’s so much nuggets of what is just boring nonsense in there wrapped in an all time gish gallop of flowery language and meaningless “nuance” including: “Jews of not safe outside of Israel” “Arabs would genocide us if they got the chance” “Well, some of the guys who did the Nakba survived pogroms, therefore…” “Okay NOT COUNTING GAZA AND THE WEST BANK Israel is a multi-ethnic democratic paradise” “Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism” “The US is a settler colonial state too therefore blah blah!” “I’m a leftist actually” Regurgitating the Hamas rape and baby beheading rape stories. Vague allusions to how obviously the pro-Palestine is full of antisemitism and Hamas supporters.
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Mar 13, 2024 19:55
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The reason Israel and the US are likely doing this convoluted port thing is not because of what the US can bring in but that it provides a way to move the Palestinians out without displacing them into Egypt.
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Mar 14, 2024 13:36
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Rust Martialis posted:Where, exactly, in your theory, are they going to move these Palestinians out *to* https://newrepublic.com/post/177837/report-israel-expel-palestinians-gaza-third-country-congo Is the Madagascar line an attempt at humor? It’s not a good one.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:04
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Kalit posted:Biden has consistently pushed back against Netanyahu's public desire to govern/take over Gaza. Gonna need a better explanation. It sure seems disconnected with what anyone reasonable person would consider pushing back. Dismissing this as a “conspiracy theory” when it is an obvious reason that the US would invest this amount of resources and Israel’s okay indicates this is one reason they’d allow it, while you’re pushing the conspiracy that actually behind the scenes Biden is secretly trying to help the people of Gaza seems like your picking and choosing what lines to read into. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 16:55
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Raenir Salazar posted:Israel is a democracy Nothing more democratic than a state with millions of people in the country being non-persons with no legal rights subject to a military court system and ethnicity based citizenship and naturalization laws!
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Mar 16, 2024 16:36
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quote:Perhaps you mean the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza lack legal rights, but even in a properly upheld two-state solution they wouldn't having voting rights in Israeli elections so I'm not sure how this makes Israel "not a democracy"; traditionally citizens of a different country outside of a country don't have any say in a country they don't live in. Canadian's don't and shouldn't at large have any say in Japanese governance. I don't think the problem with the Japanese invasion and occupation of China during WW2 was that Chinese people didn't have a say in Japanese politics! If by “Different country outside of their country” you mean the residents of a military occupied bantustan whose land is effectively claimed by Israel and a region within the claimed borders of Israel where Israel enforces its rights as if it is Israeli territory under UNCLOS and manages the border crossing from Eygpt as if it is their border and refuses to allow suffrage or even basic human rights to those people much less political rights then wow yes insightful point I guess Israel is a thriving democracy. Oh wait except for ethnicity based naturalization and property laws even within Israel proper, whoopsie. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 18:42
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You said Israel shouldn’t be destroyed as a state because it is a democracy. That is how this whole nonsense started.
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Mar 16, 2024 23:36
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Paladinus posted:It appears that a full-scale war against Israel is not even a remote possibility right now. I'm not sure what all this hypothesising is supposed to accomplish. The discussion would make sense if Israel's neighbours started amassing troops at the border or something, but right now it's utterly irrelevant and makes it hard to get any useful information from the thread. Factions within Israel are actively trying to start a war with Lebanon and Israel is in a state of war with the defacto government of Yemen. Without US carrier groups parked offshore Egypt’s and Iran’s options change. Israel is incredibly politically unstable, has severely degraded military capabilities and reputation, and reliant on western military aid that it may lose in the coming years.
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Mar 17, 2024 16:09
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So, is it genocide denialism to think that the claim “Israel being destroyed as a state via military force would lead to genocide” is hysterical, Zionist propaganda used to justify the actual genocide going on in Gaza? If it’s somehow genocide denial to support the use of military force to stop genocide even though hypothetically it could lead to a retaliatory genocide than I’m a “genocide denier,” and so is everyone who thinks that the destruction of the Nazi state was justified. Strange how much more squeamish moderation seems to get about hypothetical deaths of “white” people vs actual deaths of brown people.
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Mar 19, 2024 18:02
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No, I’m making one claim. You are throwing around a whole bunch of pedantic nonsense about a pretty simple argument, the simple claim that force is justified to stop Israel and that the Israeli state. As it exists Israel is the obstacle to peace and stability, and it being destroyed or reformed by extreme measures is probably necessary to secure the lives of both Palestinians and Israelis and chance for a both a future Palestinian and Jewish states that are not functionally feudal marches for outside powers to gently caress around in the Middle East or settler projects, or viable one state solution. The belief in the necessity of the Israeli state to secure the safety of all Jews via the expulsion and subjugation or removal of minorities in Israel is a fundamental tenet of Zionism in practice, and your argument why somehow the destruction of the state committing a genocide would probably be worse or lead to worse things is the same argument just with the subjugation part left out, so no, not separate. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Mar 19, 2024 |
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Mar 19, 2024 19:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think there's a critical difference here where wishing for some scenarios is just silly enough as to not be worth responding to as obviously silly, and some scenarios where even if silly are still weird and blood thirsty; like if someone said they wish they could Thanos snap away all Communists, I think people would still object even if its silly as long as it was clearly serious and not as a joke; and scenarios that while not silly (as in grounded in something vaguely feasible if the planets were to align in a timely and sequential manner) that in addition to still being blood thirsty are still frequently insisted on as not just something they want but also insist is the only viable solution. This last bit is a very large portion of the actual disagreement. To clarify, are you insinuating that the idea of using military force to stop Israel or the Israeli state from completing the slaughter in Gaza and the settlement of the West Bank is "bloodthirsty?"
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Mar 19, 2024 21:05
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Maera Sior posted:
Using overwhelming military force to cripple the country's ability to do a genocide seems fundamentally different than using overwhelming military force with the intent of committing one. Raenir Salazar posted:Because to my mind, if you're open to the fact that yes Israel if it wants to remain constitutionally a "Jewish state" I am absolutely not favorable to the concept of a "constitutionally ethnic" state of any kind that you seem to amendable to.
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Mar 19, 2024 21:41
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Kalit posted:: If the idea that Israel is hoping to use the port to deport people is a conspiracy theory, what do you call your little theory that Biden is secretly behind the scenes (conspiring if you will) “dead set” against Bibi and Israeli policy toward Palestine despite doing almost everyhting possible materially short of sending troops to help the IDF carry on? Any evidence to support your certainty?
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Mar 20, 2024 15:10
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Esran posted:Thank you, Inferior Third Season, for much needed moderation of these dangerous ideas.
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Mar 20, 2024 21:20
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68605401.amp Anthony Blinken says 100% of the population in Gaza faces acute shortages, calls on Israel to do something to ensure aid gets to civilians, Israel says that’s the responsibility of UNWRA (that they got defunded with fake evidence) and Gaza police forces (which they are actively targeting even more than usual in the past week). I dunno I remember when I was in a MEU the whole point was that we could deploy a battalion sized force anywhere in the world within hours notice. Gaza is conveniently close to the ocean and the US logistics chain. I’m sure marines would be perfectly capable of distributing food supplies. Wonder where the hustle went.
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Mar 20, 2024 21:46
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Nail Rat posted:This sounds like just whataboutism since both sides are clearly equally obstacles to peace, and we'll land back at Israel has no choice but to defense themselves. I realize it's jaded to say so, but I do think this is just performative to try to appease the part of the Democratic base that is livid about our unconditional support for genocide. The “smart move” for both the dems who cannot not support Israel and smarter zionists is allow this to go on just long enough to make Gaza uninhabitable, kill off as many Palestinians and get as much of a foothold in Gaza, divide up the West Bank as much as possible before the election gets too close, and then let Bibi and the far right take all the blame while installing a more coy “centrist” Israeli leader who can effectively continue the same policies without all the noise. For this to work it all requires the Hamas has been destroyed or placated enough to not be attacking Israeli military outposts, which will in turn lead to demands for retaliation that will quickly put a lie to the whole narrative that the genocide campaign is a product of the far-right or Bibi and his cabinet alone, and that Bibi will go quietly enough which I think are very unlikely. Nail Rat posted:This sounds like just whataboutism since both sides are clearly equally obstacles to peace, and we'll land back at Israel has no choice but to defense themselves. I realize it's jaded to say so, but I do think this is just performative to try to appease the part of the Democratic base that is livid about our unconditional support for genocide. I think the dem establishment types and liberal Zionists sincerely believe that Netanyahu is the root the problem and that it’s all a PR issue that can be fixed by rolling the genocide a little bit slower and quieter when the adults get in the room. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 05:23
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celadon posted:Are there estimates on the cost of rebuilding the Gaza Strip? Cause Israel obviously should be forced to foot the bill for the destruction they caused but a country of ten million people completely rebuilding the infrastructure of two million people is going to be pretty onerous. Like the destruction of the state talked about earlier in the thread will likely be accomplished by the devastating economic impacts of the entire productive output of your country being rerouted for years to undo the effects of your carpetbombing. https://www.un.org/unispal/document...lease-excerpts/ I think we all know now, but been the plan for a long time. Gazans were able to make do with less a lot longer than Israel anticipated and kept food and water production far above what was predicted. Israel is not going to waste the opportunity to finally make the strip uninhabitable.
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Mar 21, 2024 06:22
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One of the most likely reasons for Oct 7 too was that Hamas was increasingly being seen as a passive or even collaborationist faction after the March of Return protests while smaller groups like PIJ and Lions Den were seen as the new real resistance.
Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 17:16
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socialsecurity posted:China has committed many of its own colonialisms and atrocities and genocides, including ones on Muslims so I'm not sure why you are trying to paint that as a western only thing. I’m glad the thread could be back to “what about China” while stringent is still banned and mods have refused to clarify why exactly he was even banned.
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Mar 23, 2024 15:48
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What is your point? Neither Ukraine nor Russia are committing genocide, either. Israel is. That is the whole loving point. This is about Israel, not China, not Russia, not “tankies” which seems to have lost all meaning at this point if a “tankie” is someone who is disgusted by Biden arming Israel, the side with all the tanks and not the people who want to minimize his culpability.
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Mar 24, 2024 13:59
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Inferior Third Season is still mourning the state genocides committed against the Third Reich, Rhodesia, Austria-Hungry, and Yugoslavia (understandable) have some respect. I would be helpful in the OP to clarify that while genocide isn’t against the rules (rad!) genocide is also seemingly defined here as a destruction or imposed reform of a nation-state and that “well sourced” means “Anthony Blinken pulled it out of his rear end in a top hat.”
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Mar 26, 2024 21:39
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World Famous W posted:i take back everything ive said about you. follow the plan, trust the process
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Apr 8, 2024 14:20
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Has anything been able to be verified about exactly what happened at Al-Shifa? Many different accounts describing mass summary executions were reported by Palestinians who escaped/fled the area but I've seen almost nothing beyond that mentioned about it and little followup in "mainstream" western media sources, and it doesn't seem like there has been much investigation of the grounds even though Israel left a week ago, other than a couple people from WHO. It seems like at best the IDF was allowing troops to kill as they pleased, but based on some descriptions of survivors it sounds like the IDF may have had some sort of organized process of summary executions.
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Apr 9, 2024 04:16
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