Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

CommieGIR posted:

So tell us, do you view all Palestinians as terrorists undeserving of rights or land?

Look hare careful the IDF is, they don't want to cause unnecessary causalities I suppose...

Look at how careless Hamas are, provoking Israel to respond in self defence against foreign attack. If Palestinians do not halt these attacks wherever and whenever they occur, then they are guilty of participating in those attacks and will be treated as enemy combatants without consideration for any other factors.

There are no shades of grey in enemy combatant status; it is a binary issue.

Just look at the current antisemitic knifing epidemic in Israel and the response of Israelis when a knifing occurs: that is the response necessary of Palestinians whenever a terrorist attack occurs in order to halt those attacks. Until such a time as Palestinians are able to stop terrorist attacks without Israeli intervention, Palestine will never develop.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 18:46

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 15:25

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

icantfindaname posted:

israel is an ethnic supremacist apartheid state founded on ethnic cleansing, and if the best defense of them you can come up with is "but their neighbors are worse!!!!!!!" that's pretty pathetic, both for israel and for you

Their neighbors are much worse, and yet you don't see Palestinians criticizing them for their crimes. Gee, maybe the terrorist actions of Hamas and Palestinians are rooted in antisemitism? Certainly this whole wave of knifings in Israel is.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 18:57

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

CommieGIR posted:

Better yet: Post the article about the arson case where settlers they burned two parents and a baby alive, and while the Israeli's will rush a Palestinian to court and bulldoze his house in a heartbeat, they are dragging their feet and billing the Palestinian government for the baby's healthcare.

Sucks to be a second class citizens in Israel.

Palestinians are not second class citizens of Israel; they are alien to Israel. Israel is billing the representative government of an alien for healthcare provided. If that government does not want healthcare provided to their national on foreign soil, then they are free to evacuate that national.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 20:30

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

LeoMarr posted:

I don't think there will ever be a 2 state system in Israel.

I agree. Israel is one nation, the eternal homeland of Judaism.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2015 00:19

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

LeoMarr posted:

Yeah I think Israel should look more like this

I'm okay with the jews being the vindicators of Constantinople as long as it isn't the turkish hordes

You forgot to include the Jewish kingdoms in Yemen and Ethiopia.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2015 00:22

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

LeoMarr posted:

Colonies*

Despite what revisionist muslims believe, there existed Jewish kingdoms in Ethiopia and Yemen.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2015 00:24

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Dead Cosmonaut posted:

Like there were all of those Jews in Egypt and they built the pyramids and poo poo.

And even by Israeli standards, Ethiopians barely are considered humans.

There was also a thriving Jewish community in Medina, which was ethnically cleansed to found a religion.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2015 03:21

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Woolie Wool posted:

W/R/T whether it's genocide or not and what genocide really is, Israel is already exterminating the Palestinians. All they have to do is continue their current policies and Gaza will be completely annihilated in 50 years. This is not mere oppression, it is Generalplan Ost in slow motion.

You wanna make a bet on that?

Because Gaza will still be there in 50 years.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2015 21:41

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Does BDS accept the right for a Jewish state to exist in the mideast, yes or no?

If no, the movement is antisemitic. I expect many words to have been gnashed out by BDS saying no in the most oblique manner possible.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 05:57

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Watermelon City posted:

That's a great argument for genocide.

Like the kind BDS whitewashes of middle eastern Jews from all nations but Israel?

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 16:05

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

spoon0042 posted:

Even accepting your premise "they did it too" isn't an excuse for genocide.

Where would those refugees go if BDS destroys the Jewish state of Israel?

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 16:26

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Watermelon City posted:

This sentence is a doozy but yes Jews have faced persecution and repression in middle eastern states. That's not a point of contention.

Why doesn't BDS demand compensation for those refugees rather than arguing that their economic prosperity should be further infringed?

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 16:33

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Effectronica posted:

My god. Not Zimbabwe. I well remember the white genocide that took place on the ascension of ZANU-PF.

Seriously, if the worst that could be expected from the Palestinian Right of Return is some expropriation and a brief outburst of violence, even given all the magic involved in making that happen...

There was an ethnic cleansing of whites in Zim after Mugabe no longer needed whites to support his regime, effectronica.

It is a legitimate fear that Palestinians, who feel they are entitled to something from Israel which Israelis will not provide aliens, may engage in actions contrary to Israeli values were these aliens to be admitted en masse. Nations have values and shared culture for a reason; all Palestinians, like the peoples of all the worlds' nations, have the option to immigrate to Israel, they need only make aliyah.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2015 16:24

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

spoon0042 posted:

If it's a legitimate fear it's only because of what Israel continues to do to them though.

Assigning blame is not productive in international relations with repeat players. It is either a legitimate fear, which must be addressed, or an illegitimate fear, which will then be ignored in ongoing negotiations and peacetalks.

I think that, what Israel offered to international refugees, should be lauded as a model for other nations in the region to follow through on with refugees within their administrative jurisdictions.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2015 17:00

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Main Paineframe posted:

Ethnic or religious groups shouldn't be oppressed, disenfranchised, or discriminated against, regardless of the ethnic or religious makeup of the state. Just as I oppose Israeli oppression of Palestinians under both formal and de facto Israeli control, I would oppose any similar oppression of Jews by hypothetical future Israeli Palestinians. I would dearly hope that this is not a controversial statement, and that everyone in this thread could agree on at least that much. (and if anyone disagrees, please kindly get the gently caress out)

However, it is absolutely unacceptable to oppress and discriminate against an ethnic group for fear that, if they were not oppressed and disenfranchised, they might gain enough power in the government to reverse those policies back against their former oppressors. It's just a thin excuse to justify racism as "necessary", no different from Confederate slavemasters who claimed that slavery (and later Jim Crow) was necessary to protect whites from the retribution of ex-slaves.

The proper answer is to have a strong state with effective checks and balances which prevent the state from discriminating against any minority group, regardless of which one it is. And, in all honesty, a one-state solution would be pretty close to that already! Most abuses against Palestinians are either extralegal, illegal, or governed by an alternate legal framework (mostly military law or immigration law). A one-state solution would neatly end the applicability of the military laws responsible for most of the abuse in the Palestinian territories and the residency laws used to threaten East Jerusalem Palestinians, without giving any opportunity for those same laws to be applied against Jews. The extralegal abuse wouldn't be stopped by a one-state solution, but its institutional nature heavily insulates it from population shifts so there's no need to worry about turnabout from Palestinians there either.

What about the previous oppression of Jews by Palestinian arabs? Do the Jews of the arab world get to return to their homes and have their property returned to them before or after you require them to compensate the families of those who stole their property and livelihoods?

# ¿ Dec 23, 2015 20:29

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

zeal posted:

it would be pretty horrible if those people ended up stateless refugees and spent decades, then generations, trying to get back a fraction of what they lost

It's quite easy to prevent that loss: keep Israel a Jewish state and denounce anyone who would make millions of Jews stateless refugees, like Hitler and Stalin did in Eastern Europe, as antisemitic in their objective.

When millions of Jews are made stateless, history shows that before Israel, they are killed. After Israel, they have refuge and a nation willing to accept them and allow them to worship freely. BDS would make millions of Jews stateless once more and invite another holocaust in its goals. While BDS is not open in its antisemitism, its goals can result in no other conceivable course.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2015 20:39

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Would jesus qualify to make aliyah?

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 00:45

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Xander77 posted:

Seriously though. I kinda need a basic breakdown of each / either, at least insofar as who initiated either and their stated goals.

BDS wants to boycott Israel until the state is altered in such a way as to result in the elimination of Jews from another nation in the mideast.

The PA only sometimes encourages terrorism and violence, such as with their recent refusal to denounce and continuation to propagate false claims that Jews would begin to worship on the temple mount.

Speaking of which, why is it that Jews do not have the right to worship on the temple mount? Should we not promote societies which encourage the free and fair expression of appropriately held religious beliefs?

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 03:35

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

I think he should have put an American flag on it and made a spech

do you like kibbutz, avshalom?

i think they are pretty cool

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:11

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

The summit is an internatioonal friendship area

I have a dream --- that one day all men shall be free to worship on the temple mount. I have a dream --- that black and white, christian and jew, son and father, will one day be free to practice their faith openly on the most holy of holys, rather than spend their hours toiling away in sweaty, smelly observance underground.

The PA stands for forcing Jews to practice their religion at the site of the first temple underground. Perhaps one day Israel will have the courage to stand up for practicing the Jewish faith in the open.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:14

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

Genuinely thinking of turning my farm into a kibbutz (in AUtsralia) but Mum wants it o be an outdoor concert venue and saffron farm so idk

Please ask your friends if they'd concider going to a kibbutz that's not in ISrael

If it helps I consider Israel to be an intanginble land accessible only by the spirits and a bit of its soil is lodged in every JEwish heart

i am on a farm in the far north of america

rural life is different as gently caress

part of me wants to maybe go to a kibbutz for a year sometime

I dunno if a kibbutz can be outside Israel; the purpose of kibbutz is to be self-reliant while having state institutions able to take care of your basic needs for free, such as medical, dental, and vision.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:16

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

We will be respected! WE will suffer no more contempt!!!

We should not be forced to worship in those tunnels next to the west wall, underground, where temperatures can easily reach 110 fahrenheit, standing next to some orthodox dude davin'n hardcore and scvitzing a storm up! We should be able to practice our religion under the clouds as G_d intended, free from the smells of the overweight dude in a 3-piece suit sweating his balls off next to you!

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:19

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

actually australi kind of allows that, our social welfare isn't GREAT like other countries' but it does allow smome degree of medical care without a lot of epense, unlike America

america allows free medical care

you just cannot have certain levels of income if you wish to qualify for it

america has pretty good social welfare, if you're judicious with it and are willing to put some effort into your life

of course, life in America would be much improved if our policies were more reflective of Israel's. Alas, there is only so much to be done

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:20

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

I agree, and Thank G-d For Donald trump! and my beloved Ariel, may he res tin peace

donald trump is like the spirit of arik, except in a man with a high metabolism

donald trump is a friend of israel. hell, all his grandbabies have israeli citizenship for tax purposes! It makes flying to Malta so much easier

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:23

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

MY BODY JOLTS INTO AN EROTIC POLKA

We shall call it

"Klezmer"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5py9qHB_YPk

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:25

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

I AM A STEAMING CLEFT. I AM A CHECKERBOAR DOF GLISTENING FLESH. I AM A HOT FAT SLUT AND MGY RED SEA OF BREASTS NIS PARTING FOR THEE

Dark eyes, burning eyes
Frightful and beautiful eyes
I love you so, I fear you so
For sure I've seen you at a sinister hour

Dark eyes, flaming eyes
They implore me into faraway lands
Where love reigns, where peace reigns
Where there is no suffering, where war is forbidden

Israel!

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:27

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

OChi Chornye is a Romani song

a fellow people who would have been best served by founding their own Israel in Ottoman lands

We must show solidarity to fellow decolonialist movements, Avshalom.

It is what Rav Aluf Yaakov Dori would have done

if you have better klezmer or israeli music, post it

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:33

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

I have lots but Australia is a firstworl country where the rural intenret is at aspeed you probably havne't seen since 1993, which means no Youtuibe at ALL

We're not perfect

In my head I used to call you Miggif, which turned into MigFig

MigFig --- I'll take it!

i bought fresh dates and figs in palestine once

they were pretty tasty

I am posting from rural america at this very second; we have 4g LTE here, and I get unlimited data use, so its pretty baller.

I can stream youtube or live radio from anywhere a-ok no problem

You cannot start a kibbutz without a wifi connection able to be shared freely to a few dozen other homesteaders, avs. Have you considered maybe making aliyah with friends to a kibbutz?

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:40

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Avshalom posted:

Except for ONE who's a total loving nerd who couldn't euthanise a quail wihout dying and I wouldn't make aliyah wiht him anyway, he's a poo poo Head and iirc you are supposed to gently caress everhyone (would be using birthright because I'm a poor))

This fall I helped the brother-in-law's brother's children behead and defrock twodozen of their roosters for winter

It was either that or bale hay in the cow patty. The chicken were pretty easy, since I took a course on kosher cooking & cleaning while I was an undergrad. Its pretty easy to keep kosher, as long as you have a good knife

And now my sister has another one in the oven so maybe rural life is for me? It is just so different to have family married into a buncha expatriate Finno-Norgie rednecks, they had never seen matzhoh brie before i came up here and still do not know the joy which is challa

the nearest temple is either in Fargo or Canada so while I would like to start going to services again it is a bit inconvenient what with the 5 hour drive

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 04:54

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Maoist Pussy posted:

Israel is not going to stop doing that because having tiny enclaves occupied by foreign hostiles is dumb and untenable.

It isn't "stealing land" if the land is being used to plan, provision, and conduct terrorist operations, any more than YPG is "stealing land" in Syria as it advances against ISIL forces around Tishrin Dam.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 06:06

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Main Paineframe posted:

"It's inconvenient for us if they live there" is not a valid reason for stealing, and collective punishment of entire civilian populations for the acts of terrorist individuals or organizations is generally considered a violation of human rights.

...but enough about Palestinian knife terrorists.

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# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 20:16

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

A Terrible Person posted:

Ah. Cool.

So military intervention by Israel doesn't count. Why not also say that the uptick in rockets had nothing to do with hostilities, too, then?

Foreign terrorists in a neighboring, underdeveloped nation are planning an imminent attack on your citizens. Within days, they plan to use terror tunnels, dug over months to years, fortified with reinforced concrete, to kidnap teenagers from your territory and hold them for ransom. The nominal governing body of the foreign territory maintains its calls for your nation's destruction and to drive your citizens "into the sea," which tempers your willingness to collaborate with them. Do you:

A. Conduct a commando raid of foreign territory to kill those terrorists before they have a chance to kidnap your citizens

B. Pass along the intel on those terrorists to the nominal governing body of the foreign territory, trusting that they don't actually mean it when they call for the same goals as the terrorists planning the imminent attack

C. Do nothing, and, since your nation is a democracy with a free press, suffer electoral defeat from failing to uphold your oath of office and defend your citizens

What other options did the Israeli government have? Unlike its neighbors, Israel is a democracy with democratic values and a free press which holds its leaders to account.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Jan 1, 2016 21:58

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

team overhead smash posted:

When the Palestinians have used non-violent methods like UN recognition you've complained about them then too. You don't agree with Palestinians using any methods to try and get their freedom.

Why do you oppose protesting non-violent methods you disagree with through non-violent means?

# ¿ Jan 2, 2016 01:58

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 15:25

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Horrible Lurkbeast posted:

Bibi is about to do his best Santa Claus impression, except the gifts are bombs.
Yes there's even some for you Tiny Tim!

Sante Clause drops gifts on one night a year and is done. Channukah Harry drops gifts for 13 crazy nights, with the gifts getting better and better as the days go on.

Ultramega posted:

Not at all; during the 2006 clash with lebanon they expended their entire stockpile of strategic weapons in like 3 days and received an emergency reup from the usa but it underscores the fact that israel is just a beat cop for american policy doing our dirty work like using direct violence against people the reactionary fucks in power want dead.

I continue to fail to see much of a difference between Israel and America. Israel is the most American nation outside our 50 states; I would advocate that Israel should be offered special American territorial status by Congress given how close our Judeo-Christian democratic values align.

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 08:08 on May 10, 2018

# ¿ May 10, 2018 08:04

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