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Litany Unheard posted:So what's with Blizzard's obsession with goodly heroes becoming CORRUPTED? It's an interesting plot once or twice, but it seems to happen three to five times per franchise. The lead writer has a raging literary boner for CORRUPTION. Like, he literally has difficulty writing any other plotline.
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Dec 21, 2015 04:59
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The Culling of Stratholme for Timewalking dungeons in WoW is the single most painful experience because pubbies just do not know any of the mechanics.
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Dec 21, 2015 05:01
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Spudd posted:The Culling of Stratholme for Timewalking dungeons in WoW is the single most painful experience because pubbies just do not know any of the mechanics. I see your Culling of Stratholme, and raise you an Oculus.
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Dec 21, 2015 05:05
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BlazetheInferno posted:I see your Culling of Stratholme, and raise you an Oculus. You can't run through a street pulling 100 dudes in Oculus though. 
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Dec 21, 2015 05:06
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I thought we were talking about people not understanding mechanics? Oculus was nigh-impossible to comple WHEN IT WAS CURRENT because no one would stay... because everyone was too goddamn stupid to learn how the drat dragons worked.
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Dec 21, 2015 05:12
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Litany Unheard posted:So what's with Blizzard's obsession with goodly heroes becoming CORRUPTED? It's an interesting plot once or twice, but it seems to happen three to five times per franchise. I'm pretty sure this is the first Blizzard game that plot occurred in though, so it's not as bad here.
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Dec 21, 2015 05:29
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Second - Starcraft 1 came first.
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Dec 21, 2015 05:37
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3rd actually, diablo 2 came before warcraft 3 too.
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Dec 21, 2015 05:41
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I don't mind Arthas, Kerrigan and the Wanderer because they all happen in their own distinct ways. It's in TFT and WoW that the CORRUPTION gets really tiresome. The cutscene from the start of Culling is so good, I have the dialogue practically memorised.
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Dec 21, 2015 10:04
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Aces High posted:alright with Stratholme done now we get to the best hero in the game
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Dec 21, 2015 10:15
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I'll have you know he appeared a game ago already  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgteUAI4tZo
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Dec 21, 2015 10:20
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He talked. He didn't perform any GROM HELLSCREAM-ing.
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Dec 21, 2015 10:31
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Technically he was in the tutorial too and I am seriously disappointed by how they handled his voice in this game but he's still the most badass orc that ever lived.
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Dec 21, 2015 10:44
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BlazetheInferno posted:I see your Culling of Stratholme, and raise you an Oculus.
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Dec 21, 2015 12:42
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anilEhilated posted:Technically he was in the tutorial too and I am seriously disappointed by how they handled his voice in this game but he's still the most badass orc that ever lived.
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Dec 21, 2015 12:53
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Totally. Especially Ner'zhul, that clown managed to get himself undeaded. Doomhammer is the only real contestant. edit: VVV Oh, gently caress off. That guy's only reason for existence was to turn a perfectly fine story into a terrible book. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 12:56
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^^ just sayin' ^^ You're all wrong. WoWWiki posted:At the final battle over the Well of Eternity, Brox realized that if the world and the future were to be saved, his companions needed more time. Brox leapt from the back of one of the red dragons also carrying Rhonin into the swirling portal that was opening at the bottom of the funnel. When he passed through, and arrived in the realm of the Burning Legion, he proceeded to slaughter multitudes of demons, blocking their advance towards the portal, slaying so many that he ended up standing atop a hill of their bodies — mocking more to come challenge him. It was there that he eventually attracted the attention of Sargeras, who came personally to put an end to the orc's life. However, using the magical axe crafted for him by Malfurion, Brox did the impossible, and struck a small wound in Sargeras' leg. This wound would later be the focus of Krasus and his allies' spellwork, that for a second, tore Sargeras' attention away from his struggle to keep the portal open...allowing Malfurion and Illidan to close it upon him. Brox's life was ended by Sargeras, right before the demon entered the portal, by the jagged edge of Sargeras's broken sword. With this final act of loyalty, Broxigar the Red sealed his place in history as the only known mortal to have ever staged an assault upon the Burning Legion's leader. TehKeen fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Dec 21, 2015 |
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Dec 21, 2015 12:56
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^^ oh god my first quote != edit ^^
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Dec 21, 2015 12:59
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Drakenel posted:The lead writer has a raging literary boner for CORRUPTION. Like, he literally has difficulty writing any other plotline. It is a little more nuanced than that. Metzen has stated before that he hates the idea of villains who are evil because they are evil, and in the case of the Warcraft orcs especially it felt uncomfortably racist to him.
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Dec 21, 2015 13:09
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And somehow CORRUPTION isn't evil because evil? What's wrong with letting orcs (and humans and elves and dwarves and so on) have people who are evil selfish assholes? Surely all races have good and bad individuals.TehKeen posted:^^ just sayin' ^^ 
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Dec 21, 2015 13:14
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Poil posted:And somehow CORRUPTION isn't evil because evil? What's wrong with letting orcs (and humans and elves and dwarves and so on) have people who are evil selfish assholes? Surely all races have good and bad individuals. Because Metzen isn't a very good writer, mkay? He at least had editors to keep Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 1 reasonably coherent, he only started to go off the deep end later.
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Dec 21, 2015 13:42
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Great to see you continue! Took a while for me to trudge through the threads and see this one. In March of the Scourge (and probably other maps with Goblin Merchants) they sell Gems of True Seeing, but I don't know if there is actually any use for it at any point during the games? You can also get three free footmen south of your base. There is also a small scene with a caged peasant in an island in the middle of the map who will give you Boots of Speed, which are probably not available anywhere else. Never realized that some of the undead waves were created by the caravan. I looked at the map in the editor and found the area you need to be in for the "speech" to trigger. You can see the speech is in progress as Arthas has no health numbers visible. The area is just behind where Mal'ganis first appears.
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Dec 21, 2015 14:43
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Ironic thing is, Arthas is probably doing the right thing here. It's a tough situation, but the plague is supposed to be difficult if not impossible to cure, and Arthas is right that the longer they delay the worse this problem gets, particularly with Mal'Ganis on the city's doorstep. The problem is that Arthas is being a particular dick about it. Had Jaina and Uther stuck around long enough to meet Mal'Ganis, they'd probably agree that it's a grim and unpleasant business that must be done to quarantine the plague. But Arthas jumps straight into it and alienates his friends and allies as a result.
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Dec 21, 2015 15:40
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Litany Unheard posted:So what's with Blizzard's obsession with goodly heroes becoming CORRUPTED? It's an interesting plot once or twice, but it seems to happen three to five times per franchise. Welcome to Chris Metzen.
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Dec 21, 2015 15:43
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Cythereal posted:It is a little more nuanced than that. Metzen has stated before that he hates the idea of villains who are evil because they are evil, and in the case of the Warcraft orcs especially it felt uncomfortably racist to him. Don't orcs literally change color when they get corrupted? I think a lot of the corruption stuff just comes from Warhammer. The problem is that while it can be interesting to see a hero turn evil, it's never interesting to have "corruption" be a literal substance in the universe's metaphysics. Like, it goes from an already-bad description of impurity into fantasy jargon.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:42
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George posted:Don't orcs literally change color when they get corrupted? Yes, and thanks to Warlords of Draenor being particularly off, we now know the color change even depends on the specific flavor of corruption. The orcs we've seen and will continue to see this game were corrupted by the blood of Mannoroth, a pit lord (a very powerful demon we'll see later), turning them red as we saw in the first human mission or two. Orcs still contaminated by Mannoroth's blood but not in the throes of full demonic corruption are green instead, as the green orcs we'll see most of the game. Uncorrupted orcs have brown or grey skin depending on the clan. Speaking of which, the red orcs we've seen in the human campaign are noted to be members of the Blackrock Clan. Without getting into the insanity that's Warlords of Draenor, the Blackrocks were the preeminent clan of the Warcraft 1 and 2 Horde, and their leader Blackhand was the Horde's warchief. These Blackrocks were members of the WC2 Horde that evaded capture and have continued to wage a guerrilla war against the Alliance while still worshiping demons. I know far too much about WoW's lore if anyone wants to peer into the abyss. For example, that Blackrock blademaster guy in the second mission, Jubei'thos? He's part of a raid boss encounter in WoW's current hardest raid. How much sense it makes... depends.
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Dec 21, 2015 16:49
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Cythereal posted:Ironic thing is, Arthas is probably doing the right thing here. It's a tough situation, but the plague is supposed to be difficult if not impossible to cure, and Arthas is right that the longer they delay the worse this problem gets, particularly with Mal'Ganis on the city's doorstep.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:06
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Cythereal posted:Ironic thing is, Arthas is probably doing the right thing here. It's a tough situation, but the plague is supposed to be difficult if not impossible to cure, and Arthas is right that the longer they delay the worse this problem gets, particularly with Mal'Ganis on the city's doorstep. This is pretty much why I end up tuning out the story until the end of the human champaign at the least. I'd have loved it if there was another mission between this one and the last that had Arthas get more and more frustrated and desperate to stop the plauge from killing his people before he goes "Okay this paladin poo poo is not going to to work, time to cut to the chase", and then this mission happens. But as it is, it just ends up feeling like he goes from being somewhat frustrated to turbo rear end in a top hat in the span of 2 scenes.
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Dec 21, 2015 17:14
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anilEhilated posted:"Arthas is a moron" is basically this game's plot in a nutshell. See the whole bit where the bad guy that's running around talking about what a great soldier of darkness Arthas will be just told Arthas he'll be in the frozen north for the near future, and could Arthas kindly meet him there to find his destiny? Arthas' response? Death threats and running into the world's most obvious trap
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Dec 21, 2015 17:38
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Cythereal posted:It is a little more nuanced than that. Metzen has stated before that he hates the idea of villains who are evil because they are evil, and in the case of the Warcraft orcs especially it felt uncomfortably racist to him. Do you know who else was uncomfortable with the idea of villains who are evil because they are evil? JRR Tolkien
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Dec 21, 2015 21:09
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Someone once said that Blizzard's only ever plot is "corrupted by evil the end" which is the most succint and true way to put it. Also, I like having this thread back, even though you drive me insane by constantly putting the song the title references into my head  . Also, your videos are good and fun to watch, please stop apologizing for how terribly boring they are and how you should have done [x] instead to make them better!
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Dec 21, 2015 22:06
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Honestly, and I know this has been brought up by other Goons and folks on other forums, I sometimes wonder if Metzen struggles/struggled with addiction. Like the whole corruption plot and how he's frankly obssessed with it seems like the sort of theme that would resonate with an addict or a recovering addict. Like, it's kind of funny, but due to retcons and poo poo, by the time of WoW there are basically NO actual villains with agency in the Warcraft canon. Every single named villain, with almost no exceptions, was corrupted by something. It's hilariously optimistic; there are no bad people, really, just fallen heroes. Nthing that I'm glad this is back, and also the sentiment that while Arthas' fall isn't that bad or anything given his character, it really does feel rushed. I agree we definitely kind of needed another mission or something between "what shall I do?" and "FULL STEAM AHEAD, KILL THE VILLAGERS."
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Dec 21, 2015 22:24
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I don't think the problem was the "kill the villagers" thing so much as him being a complete dick about it to Uther and Jaina, up to and including stripping Uther of knighthood. They could've kept The Culling of Stratholme right where it was with no changes except Arthas is sad about what he's doing instead of a massive jerk and it would've been less jarring. Then (without spoilers), you have two missions from now as the big turning point and it works better.Simply Simon posted:Also, your videos are good and fun to watch, please stop apologizing for how terribly boring they are and how you should have done [x] instead to make them better! Well, you're gonna have to deal with it until the backlog is gone at least. Take it more as me asking you guys if you have any better idea about how to handle something, because a lot of times it's the first time I come across a problem and I figure the people watching it can give feedback. Good to hear it's going okay.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:29
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anilEhilated posted:"Arthas is a moron" is basically this game's plot in a nutshell. Do: "Uther, I worry something terrible is going to happen to these plague victims and I need your help." Don't: "I demand you assist me in the slaughter this entire city. Otherwise, be cast out as a traitor!" All ultimatums and no manners make Arthus a raid boss.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:37
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It actually would've been interesting if they started off the mission by getting you to try and heal the peasants with priests, but after the first couple of rounds it became clear it wasn't working and they changed the objective on you.
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Dec 21, 2015 22:52
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Jsor posted:Do you know who else was uncomfortable with the idea of villains who are evil because they are evil?
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Dec 22, 2015 00:44
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I would like to point out that Metzen's big problem with Warcraft isn't individual people being evil, he continues to have that happen all the time and he never actually stops that. His actual problem was Orcs as a whole being evil. Hence Thrall and the story-line of the Horde in this game and the expansion. I think they use the corruption line too much but that doesn't mean that trying to give reasons for villains being villains isn't a good idea, they just keep using the same justification almost all the time which is bad. Arthas isn't actually being corrupted right now, he's just being a jerk. Even when the later stuff happens with Arthas it's still by and large all his own decisions, so I'd argue that Arthas isn't being corrupted so much as walking into his own doom. Evil for the sake of evil villains can be interesting, in fact whilst he isn't directly in this game Gul'Dan is probably the best example of a Warcraft villain being evil because he's evil. On the other hand most people aren't evil for the sake of evil, usually they believe they're doing the right thing or they're too far gone by the time they realise they aren't, Arthas is this sort of evil and that's more interesting to me. Also Ner'Zhul is too which is funny considering what ends up going down between them.
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Dec 22, 2015 02:36
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The first few missions already painted Arthas as a bit of a impatient guy. Hes just being shoved into a corner now and being even more impatient.
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Dec 22, 2015 02:58
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Arthas is unintentionally letting his bloodlust and his desire for vengeance against the Scourge get the better of him. Uther may have been on to something when he said in an earlier mission that "vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do" and that bloodlust makes you as "vile as the orcs."
biscuits and crazy fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 19:23
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Ilyich posted:Arthas is unintentionally letting his bloodlust and his desire for vengeance against the Scourge get the better of him. Uther may have been on to something when he said in an earlier mission that "vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do" and that bloodlust makes you as "vile as the orcs." (it is a good point though)
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Dec 22, 2015 19:38
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