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Lotka Volterra posted:I think this is the first time where my gut reaction was seriously just "Give them what they want, death by cop/fed". And I want to feel awful but really do not. It would seem like the logical approach would be long range artillery bombardment with tear gas canisters.
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Jan 3, 2016 15:53
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Aspergeoisie posted:Having witnessed and arguably participated in many protests over the past few years, these guys are just doing what Occupy and student demonstrators and BLM have been doing for years. The only difference is they're doing it with guns and picked a literally useless shed in the middle of nowhere rather than a university building that hosts classes or some major automobile thoroughfare. All of this "muh white terrorist" backlash is therefore hilarious and overblown. Ammon and his clowns are nothing more than attention whores and people are literally bitching that they aren't getting enough mainstream coverage. The guns are kind of a big deal. Gandhi plus shooting people is not still passive resistance.
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Jan 3, 2016 15:54
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this too. Like all extremest of any political or religious sphere, these dudes will start turning on each other and purity testing one another after a week or two. And they all have guns, too. I feel like this is a play waiting to be written.
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Jan 3, 2016 17:49
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Nessus posted:Personally I'm just tired of the vaporous delusions of rural whites being treated with deference and obsequiousness out of fear of their possible terrorist attacks, when actual grievances are violently suppressed by the police. Maybe we're thinking of this the wrong way. After all, Occupy Wall Street also got violently shut down, and that was a pretty white movement. The government does shut down actual protest movements. They aren't shutting this one down (in part) because it isn't an actual protest movement; it's a bunch of conspiracy whackjobs who have driven themselves crazy by spending too much time listening to each other, and they aren't actually protesting anything of any significance beyond their own delusions. If they were protesting actual grievances they'd be shut down harder than Occupy was (though, admittedly, they'd still not get the treatment the Panthers got).
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Jan 4, 2016 04:52
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rudatron posted:Absolutely not - the threat of lethal force is the appropriate response to non-compliance, and in fact is what police officers are supposed to do. If you resist arrest or attempt to escape custody (in cases where you are armed and violent) for example, you're not technically using lethal force, but the use of lethal force against you is still acceptable. Uuh, no? That's not actually the law? quote:Under U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited in 1985 to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1. The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."[2] Officers can only "escalate" to deadly force where the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, which is not the case for most criminals.
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Jan 4, 2016 12:51
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Alter Ego posted:...and yet these guys aren't getting tear-gassed/tazed and arrested. Why is that, do you think? In addition to race, they also aren't an actual threat to any established power blocs. Occupy threatened the wealthy and powerful. These guys don't.
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Jan 4, 2016 20:28
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theflyingorc posted:the ones going to get supplies might very well not be guilty of breaking any real laws? the only people who have done anything more than basic protesting are the handful who have talked about shooting back if the government comes in, and I doubt those guys are the ones going into town Conspiracy to commit, if nothing else.
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Jan 8, 2016 16:41
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BrandorKP posted:Accepting, even active seeking out, the consequences: beatings, jail, fire-hoses, etc is also fundamental to civil disobedience. The whole idea behind successful civil disobedience is that you have to demonstrate to the public at large that you and your compatriots are victims of the system, by making passive victimization (back of the bus, etc.) into active victimization (firehoses). You can't do that by actively being an aggressor or by fighting back with physical violence. Shooting a bunch of cops is not a good way to demonstrate that you are a victim of systemic brutality. If you're participating in an "open carry protest," you're threatening physical violence against the system, threatening (at best) to counter the system's violence with your own violence. At that point, you're not doing the gandhi/mlk/jesus thing any more. You're doing something else. It's substantively, mechanically different from nonviolent protest and works along different premises. Note that I'm not saying it can't work. It may even be necessary in some circumstances (how far would MLK have gotten without Malcolm X or the Panthers?) but it's fundamentally different from non-violent passive protest. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jan 17, 2016 |
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Jan 17, 2016 05:59
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Main Paineframe posted:The problem is that you and others are presenting this as a binary thing where every protest is either a) on par with Gandhi and Jesus loving Christ, or b) treasonous armed revolution, with no middle ground in between. Are these guys dedicated and devoted followers of the pacifistic non-violence movements pioneered by civil rights leaders in the mid-20th century and adopted wholeheartedly by left-leaning protest movements in the 60s and 70s? No, absolutely not. However, they have yet to actually do anything violent or harm anyone, and the lack of real violence makes them "non-violent" in my book in spite of the presence of items that could potentially be used in self-defense. Just so I'm clear, the relative violence or non-violence of the Bundy militia seems almost irrelevant to me given the delusional nature of their "issues" and the incoherence of their goals. It's not just that they aren't MLK; they aren't even Malcolm X. They're a bunch of stolen-valor rejects playing tactilol dress-up in a white privilege rage spasm. So let's stop pretending that they're worthy of respect because they're protesting actual issues that actually matter. They aren't and they don't. (Yes, you can make an argument that land rights are a real issue, but that has about as much to do with these people as Eric Hoffer did with the Unabomber; such justifications are pretexts, nothing more). That said, the problem with your argument is that violence isn't binary. There can be direct and indirect violence, and the mere threat of violence is also a kind of violence. And the problem with indirect violence or merely threatened violence is that such actions dramatically raise the likelihood of actual direct physical violence. Once you start waving guns around and, good lord, kidnapping children, the odds that someone will doing something stupid and get somebody killed start to escalate, dramatically. Gharbad the Weak posted:As a schizophrenic who knows schizophrenics, . . . .. The difference between The Declaration of Independence, Sovcits and Schizophrenics is that the latter two are a bit worse at it. Sovcits are the worst. Schizophrenics have a legitimate excuse.
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Jan 19, 2016 05:12
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A Winner is Jew posted:So I'm cool with the federal government giving a bunch of native americans guns, body armor, and armored vehicles if it means they get to "reclaim" the land from these assholes. There is a certain twisted logic to this that I can't help but find appealing. Like, horrible idea in reality, but great ending if this were a novel
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Jan 19, 2016 19:58
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SedanChair posted:Yeah but Carson is reasonably eloquent. Bundy is just soft-spoken but constantly fumbles over his words. Being a stupid man's idea of what a smart man sounds like has been a road to success in the Republican party since Gingrich.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:55
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Tactically there is lot to be said for waiting them out but the problem is that they are escalating their harm the longer this goes on -- for example, driving bulldozers around and damaging the Indian sites, mishandling artifacts, etc. Plus there is a lot of ongoing harm to innocent civilians and bystanders -- the refuge workers have had to relocate with their families due to harassment, etc. So at some point this needs to be ended, hopefully in a way that minimizes martyrdom.
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Jan 25, 2016 21:26
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fsif posted:I hate those goofball chucklefucks and their moronic fake cause as much as anyone, but the police report saying they shot first deserves as much scrutiny as we would extend to a black man shot dead in Harlem. Seems very premature to be so cavalier about an incredibly tragic incident. There's a certain amount of truth to this but, on the other hand, unlike Tamir Rice or Trayvon Martin, these guys were armed and had publicly stated they would violently resist arrest. There deserves to be a review etc. and I hope the entire arrest was filmed from multiple angles, but for internet purposes we can probably make some safe guesses as to what happened.
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Jan 27, 2016 04:32
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NewMars posted:Some of them really, genuinely think they can win a fight against the FBI. A few of them really do want to matyr themselves as well. Far from all of them, obviously, but there and here and now? That's going to end terribly. So how many people are left in the "refuge" ?
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Jan 27, 2016 07:07
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A lot of additional charges will likely be added once they can tally all the damage to federally protected property.
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Jan 29, 2016 00:59
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Perfectly Safe posted:As Subterfrugal says. If the refuge is still occupied at the time of the detention hearing - which is today - then Bundy et al will likely remain in jail until trial. I would be amazed if the judge allows bail of any kind. It would be career suicide if he allowed bail and then any one of these nuts picked up a gun and went into a mall or school.
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Jan 29, 2016 14:11
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