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I quite like the series' handling of magic. The Cisaurim in particular feel really weird and arcane and interesting...so of course they had to go. I almost wish they hadn't made Kellhus an uber-sorcerer, because it somewhat takes an already OP character way over the bend. Do they ever clarify just how rare/plentiful Chorae are? The big power can afford to put them on crossbow bolts to deal with wizards, granted, but still. Part of the reason they crushed Sorweel's city-state is that it had a big Chorae hoard, so I assume it's a big thing. But yeah, combining the sorcery of raw intelect and meaning (Gnosis) and the sorcery fueled by passion and sentiment (Cisaurim) might be the endgame if (when) Kellhus goes full MegaSatan. And Mimara's Judging Eye maybe helping do...something?
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Jul 2, 2016 21:59
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P-Mack posted:I've been interpreting it as the overwrought prose of HP Lovecraft narrating a tentacle rape anime for a while now so whatever, let's go all in on the black demon seed. Yeah, this may be the healthier approach. I find it annoying because Bakker can be surprisingly interesting with his story elements. The Indara-Kisaurim, Maithanet, the Nonmen, the Mandate, the Chorae. Hell, his curmudgeony gently caress-everything dragon was the coolest I've seen in ages. I often feel there is a much better, more compelling story going on at the margin of all the grimdark poo poo, never catching more than a second worth of spotlight. Worse, even his dark stuff is getting lazy. The wincest and cannibalism of WLH already felt trite, and now this just takes me right out of the narrative just as I was getting back into things. I really think it was a hastily added thing, too: there is no mention or hint of it anywhere before. Kellhus is stupefied by blades of grass after first leaving his fastness, but not by regular, non-broodmare women. His daughters are not half-broodmare, or even close. I wonder if George R. Martin is going to have an "Alan Moore post-Watchmen" moment at some point and look back at all the cesspool of edgy misery he unleashed by adding some grapgic rapes and skinning to fantasy. In Bakker's defense, though, he is not the equivalent of Rob Liefeld yet.
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Jan 24, 2017 00:52
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genericnick posted:There was the question of why a lot of his kids were monsters. Which this only adds to, and does not explain. His sons and daughters with Esment all were hosed in the mind to variable degrees, not aberrations. Those with concubines were freaky, but not in an indicative way. They implied quite clearly that he and his order were inbreding and apart for so long they were poor matches for most regular humans, and that Esmenet was important because her 'intellect' made her a viable mother. None of that really pointed to "Oh, the females are, like, an entirely different phenotype now!" I'm betting Bakker just felt the need to stomp on the point of their inhumanity some more and went "Well, we already know they cultivate sociopathy, capture humans as guinea pigs to teach neuropuncture and facial analysis to their young, are emotionally dead and able to take any action without ever feeling guilt or shame...I'm running out of options here. Rape gorelust? Already did that with the Inchoroi. Let's head back to the wellspirng...huh. I'll be damned, Axolotl tanks! That's the ticket!"
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Jan 24, 2017 01:46
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I'll keep that in mind, thanks! I'm a bit burned out on fantasy after TGO, to be honest. Now this has been the Slog of Slogs. Gonna go work out and listen to ADB's 'Betrayer' audiobook to destress with some grimdark that embraces its silliness.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:33
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Your momma so ugly even Swirling Death would not Go Down on her. She so repulsive Sranc prefer to just cuddle.
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Jan 26, 2017 23:32
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Yeah, that was disappointing, mainly because there were elements that really worked and were genuinely interesting, and should have been developed earlier rather than saved for a twist at the end. Things that were good: -The Inverse Prophet gambit. Rather than a mortal bringing the wisdom of the gods to humanity, a mortal serving as the eye of the gods over portions of mankind they cannot reach. They had established that Kellhus had visited the Outside early on, in a lone paragraph and then basically forgotten about it. Turns out it was basically the key point of the whole second trilogy. -Serwa, Moenghus, and even Kayutas. They finally got a glimmer of development right at the end, and it was good reading about what it is like to have a -fraction- of absolute power, but be flawed in different ways. A half-dead Serwa on crack facing down a dragon and a phalanx of chorae-bearing elite Sranc was one of the high points of the series (Another was Cleric and Achamian doing the same. Dragons do make everything better). -The Consult being taken over by Dunyain prisoners. While it's also a bit of a letdown (These guys have been gathering power for 4-8 thousand years and still risked having these uber-guys around after seeing firsthand how a single one took over the Three Seas in three years?), it makes sense and brings different stakes: two rational visions of the Absolute, constructed by the instruments each side got once they left their isolation. Stuff that was Bad: -Bakker does these weird cuts in the action that just floor me. Sure, I want to read reams upon reams of randos of Randonia being killed in battle instead of the actual big characters doing the big things. Sure, I'd like to have actually read about how Serwa finally killed Skuthula after their running battle and back-and-forth taunting, but I guess cutting to King Steve of Corneria, famed for building King Steve's Kickass Bridge, being carved by a skinny so that his fabled heirloom lucky sock was lost to the ages, has way more pathos. - The repetition. At this point, it has to be on purpose. Bakker comes across as desperate to drive home just how perverted/obscene/hopeless his turning points are, so he goes on and on until they just feel tired and forced. See guys, the Ordeal is really hosed -this- time! They are doing poo poo that would make Slaanesh blush! Again and again! It's like A Serbian Film directed by Frank Miller here! Death never swirled down quite this bad before, but it's gonna swirl down even harder next chapter, I promise you! - Even dragons can't shut up about pussy and whores. A minor point at this juncture, but wryly amusing nonetheless. -Rocks fall, everyone dies. Over a couple of chapters it all goes pear-shaped and everyone is assumed killed, with some left vague so that they can come back later for pointless reveals like Cnaiur in this trilogy. Stuff that confused me: (BIG SPOILERS below) -What was the point of Sorweel? Introduced early in the second trilogy, given a perfect cover by the gods and means to kill the Aspect-emperor, sent into the last Nonmen mansion and coming back, being a pile of conflicts and doubts...killed almost offscreen by a psycho kid who was there for the family picture. At least he got to bang some humanity back into his hot crush and fool around with his best friend, I guess. not that anything came out of that, either. The Emperor gets killed by a random skinchanger because he got -distracted-. -Why were the gods so keen to fight Kellhus if he'd been to their home and promised them to deliver the Consult? Sending the White-Luck Warrior, destroying Momemn, having Yatwer make common cause with heathens....and in the end he is a willing vessel for them to reach the unreachable? Am I missing something here? -If the Consult only needed an Anasurimbor to bring back the no-god, shouldn't they had won the instant Kellhus delivered Serwa to the corrupt Nonmen? Toss her in the casket, game over. -So the No-god appeared before the Ordeal and Mimara as Kellhus just to troll them? And then just let them amble away to be swarmed by another Horde? And then Cnaiur basically turns into an avatar of the murder god for...reasons? For all of its metaphysics, Bakker sucks at defining how the supernatural of his setting works. Not the gears and bolts, gently caress no, he'll go on about meanings and abstractions for pages, but how they relate to each other. What gods hate each other? Are demons their servants meant to torture the wicked or their enemies? Do they even care about their priesthoods? Doesn't the god of fertility have any issue with the crazy fuckers who, you know, made every womb a grave for over a decade? Sephyr fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 17:36
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Ugh. I'm really sorry, man. It's just that none of my friends read this series so there was a lot to tlk about and no one to discuss it with, so I brought it here.
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Jul 11, 2017 02:43
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Relevant Tangent posted:Why do things have to end? Just enjoy the ride. Even sex starts to cramp and ache if it never ends. The conclusion makes the whole journey whole.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:03
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Hmm. Needs qualification. -"it's extremely well-written," True, except when it isn't. - "full of vibrant and interesting characters," Very much true! It then proceeds to use most them very poorly. - "and it just feels like a more complete, 'real' world than just about anything else." Ehh. Up until The Warrior-Prophet, I'd agree. After that, not so much.
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Jul 22, 2017 00:28
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the trump tutelage posted:He said maybe 2-3 years, but it's not clear what form the next book might take. I think he said he was toying with the idea of a book of short stories set during the Second Apocalypse. Wow, the GRRM-ing of Bakker is going apace, isn't it? Please tell me he's signed up to do Wild Cards. Ehh, I'm kidding. Say what you will about Bakker, he's kept a mostly good flow of publishing. I'm still a bit miffed at the general tendency fo ALL fantasy to expand into whole-shelf length territory instead of giving you a good, solid, done story in three. But that's another thing entirely.
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Aug 2, 2017 23:19
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Alright, that Q&A actually shed a fair bit of light on stuff, but I wish it had been better portrayed in the text itself. I feel Bakker juggles away from some POV characters to preserve pet mysteries, which is fair, but also creates needless confusion (not to mention encouraging all kinds of speculation). I even enjoy his bit about the supposed Dunyain weakness of being so consumed by logic that their souls are actually feeble. Maybe emotions are the thing that gives your will proper intensity. That said, I wonder why the Consult even had any issue clearing Ishual once they sent in he Quya sorcerers. Just do a Cant of Compulsion on one monk to infiltrate and murder the others, or to give you a map of the catacombs, rinse and repeat. Actually, I think other than being mentioned a couple of times, no one actually uses Compulsion in the books despite how tremendously useful it would be.
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Aug 5, 2017 03:50
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:If he has the guts to stick with this ending, I'll be a happy reader. Honestly, it's perfect. Ehh, have to disagree there. It's still a cop-out and makes a LOT of stuff entirely pointless: Cnaiur, Mimara, all of Ishual, the Judging Eye, the entire pantheon, Achamian's changing dreams... It might be passable if the writing and plot had been less tangled. But when people can't even be sure of what the gods really care about, what the No-God even is (is he even sapient or just a tool?) and so on, it feels like a poor conclusion. I don't need a happy ending, but storylines should be resolved with actual skill and closure. Unless the whole moral of the story is "nothing matters lol", which is apropos to the zeitgeist but not something I think deserves 6 books to get to.
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Aug 12, 2017 19:43
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ptolpa posted:I can only agree. Whilst the first trilogy justifiably has fans (of which I am one) the Aspect Emperor series counts as a great ordeal. It is hard to imagine a publisher would extend an advance for the proposed last two books. And then there were all those drat italics.... I1m going to write my own dark fantasy opus. It will start with the protagonist waking up and making some tea, then thinking about an ancient evil is on the rise again. Then the earth will split asunder, magma demons will descend to rape the eyesockets of every living thing without exception, and the world will turn into a globe of sterile gray poo poo in which not even microbes flourish. It will all happen in under six pages. The remaining 600 pages will be an intricate, compelling past history of the now-dead planet, rife with cross-references, world-building and funny anecdotes. The sequel might take some doing, but I'm optimistic!
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Aug 14, 2017 02:53
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Strom Cuzewon posted:That's like page 10, why the hell did you even keep reading? In all fairness, I can relate. I remember a passage in Dune, when Paul Atreides is realizing the effect his powers have on those around, him making them stop being people and becoming 'creatures' devoted to the idol of him. He is alarmed and saddened by that fact, and in fact, spend the rest of his life trying to counter it to the extent that he can, with mixed success. Kellhus is basically all about turning everyone into his 'creatures', and without exception, everyone becomes WAY less interesting when that happens. It's no accident that Conphas, Cnaiur and Achamian are the only real characters left in the books after a certain point.
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Aug 21, 2017 15:55
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Have to agree with you, Tosk. To me, it feels like the 2nd trilogy is basically stretching the good ideas from the first (Like too little butter over a fuckton of bread, to paraphrase Tolkien) in order to get a larger series out of it once it became famous. gently caress, do I miss the age when authors were able weave a good world and a compelling saga into a mere three books. Hell, even one! Somewhere in the 1990s, the standard size of a fantasy story became 'whole bookshelf'. I'd blame Frank Herbert, but at least each Dune book was somewhat self-contained, while God help you if you pick up, say, 'White-Luck Warrior' and try to read it out of the blue. So who is left? Robert Jordan? GRRM?
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Aug 31, 2017 23:47
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Yeah, that makes sense. Everything has to be a franchise now, and not just in the movie world.
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Sep 1, 2017 00:44
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papa horny michael posted:It's cool how even the few big fans for bakker quit editing any of the wikis about it all around WLW. I doubt anyone but Bakker himself could really work out all the arcane, bizarre poo poo that enters play at that point.
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Sep 6, 2017 02:02
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gently caress, Name of the Rose is a good book. Funny, biting, deep, romantic and grim in turns, and that's not even counting the murder mystery. One of those that get better with each reading. Not saying that "Bluh, it was all for nothing and your leaders are golden idols who have a bit more of the real picture than you but not enough to save anyone" is not a worthwhile topic, but if that is even Bakker's goal, he sure went about it in a disjointed, unclear, uninspiring way that is, for many, ultimately frustrating.
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Sep 7, 2017 17:33
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papa horny michael posted:Aren't most people here approaching Bakker and his works like a trainwreck of bad stuff? We're sifting through the wreckage for meaning, not analyzing the accident against larger tragedies. I don't really think so, but I can't speak for others. Personally, I see it as a seed idea that had a lot of promise (there's a reason even people who dislike Frank Herbert's latter book usually make an exception for God-Emperor of Dune; the interplay between the posthuman and the human over the reins of humanity's fate is just really compelling stuff), but that grew less and less appealing to a lot of readers as 1-characters became hollowed out, 2-the tone started straying from grimdark to overt edgelord, 3-Themes and conclusions became muddled and frustrating. That said, I found at least some things to enjoy even in books I thought were crap. Hell, Achamian and Cleric battling a grumpy dragon was just epic in the best sense of the word, likely the best such encounter I have ever read, even if the rest of that book pretty much just leaked out of my ear and into a drain. I just wish there'd been more of those times, and that they had amounted to...well, anything.
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Sep 7, 2017 19:48
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The Great Ordeal was basically the meat shield for the spellcasters. A lot of work for so few of them to make it and even those not amount to much, but yeah, there you have it. I also thought it was weird that the casters in general vanished during the Hardcore stuff, but I was already past caring, to be honest. They can defend themselves from the predations of others, sure, but you'd think their powers going out of control with depravity would have been a thing. And yeah, it was sad that Serwa's battling of Sargon the Dragon was pointless.But the again, so was Achamian and Cleric battling the other Wracu. And Proyas. And Esmenet. And all of the Momemn arc. And.... At this point, I think the 'death swirling down' thing is deliberate. Like saying 'hella' in the Life is Strange games. First time was real, people talked about it, and they went with it. As for what the Inchoroi AI wants, it's really left in the dark. Maybe it was programmed to help pursue the universal pogrom, maybe it wants something else. Since Bakker needs to fill three more books, it's likely a Matrix centered around rape simulations. Idle thought: If the goal was to just depopulate the planet, wouldn't having them fleshcraft a killer plague that this medieval, lovely world could never hope to cure WAY easier than breeding rape goblins, dragons and such? Infect a few sailor, wait ten years, give yourself a vaccine and just take over the empty cities! They had a goddamn laser cannon, you can't tell me they couldn't have come up with smallpox.
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Sep 29, 2017 06:13
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Cardiac posted:Same reason the ring wasn't dropped in a Volcano by eagles I would say. The ring wasn't dropped into the volcano by the Eagles because Sauron would have felt the touch of the Maiar, as they were servants of his boss' brother Manwé, the moment they entered Mordor as long as Sauron's will was still alive and intact. They would have been torn apart by ringwraiths and their mounts and basically delivered the ring directly into Sauron's doorstep. Yeah, I've seen the joke videos. They're funny. But it's not a real plot hole.
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Sep 29, 2017 06:26
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Cardiac posted:Ehm, plot device anyone? True enough, but some stuff is better structured than other stuff. Also, not all Maiar are created equal. Balrogs were also on the same 'level' as Gandalf, but they could not hold a candle to Sauron himself. And it was implied that he had come into greater power by being more a part of the world than Morgoth once his boss was defeated and chained in the Negative Zone. Now, if we really want to talk Tolkien plot holes, we should be talking about lembas waybread. How do elves even make an oven to bake it if they live in trees? loving disgraceful oversight, I tells yah.
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Sep 29, 2017 07:12
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Rime posted:I strongly agree that this book needed a shitton more editing and time in the oven, but it was spelled out in big unmistakable neon block letters that the Inchoroi were engineered shock troopers on the ship and that both the actual crew and the AI have been dead since Arkfall, with Sil being the only one among them who kinda-sorta understood the tech enough to get things working again. They've been trying for centuries to reboot their AI core by shoving humans into it, and following the extermination of everyone except A&A they had zero ability to use their technology at all. It's like asking why two shipwrecked marines, one reduced to a drooling idiot, can't just fix up some nukes and fire them off. They were able to engineer Sranc, Wracu, skin-spies (these very recently) and other nifty stuff...so, um, no.
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Oct 1, 2017 21:50
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Skin-spies only appeared in the last 20 years and seem more complex than doglike humanoids with Nonmen faces, so obviously the Inchoroi can still use their Tekne to creat new stuff. It'd be a workable solution, yes, but as it stands it's just fanwank, Likewise, there is no Morgoth deal with only being able to corrupt existing life forms in this series. Sranc had Nonmen faces as a cruel joke to mess with them, not because they were made from Nonmen. Wracu aren't really made from anything.
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Oct 2, 2017 06:23
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KPC_Mammon posted:To be fair all of the Dûnyain are full of poo poo. Moenghus mentions finding them through vocal dissonances, so we can infer that they arrived in Kian after he was blinded in his botched magical training. If they'd come around when he still had sight, he'd have spotted them even earlier.
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Oct 4, 2017 06:58
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It improves a bit. WLW is the low point of the series in that regard. The other books have issues with repetition and hammering points home past the point of sense, but they move mostly alright.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:14
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Amuys posted:Anyone know anything about the sequel series other than it's about the No-God obviously? We're all pretty sure it'll have death swirling down.
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Nov 18, 2017 14:34
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Rime posted:I mean, I think the finale here was deeply flawed, but I will respect Bakker vastly more as an author if he has the balls to can any further sequels and stick with the narrative of his original vision. poo poo, yes. I can't really say when the acceptable format for telling a story went from 'trilogy' to ENTIRE BOOKSHELF, but it needs to be dialed back fast. This last book finished the job of killing my investment in the story, so it would be fitting if it was also the last one. Can't really find it in myself to care for a prequel, sequel or midquel after 6 volumes of high-minded grimdark wanking.
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Nov 28, 2017 15:54
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General Battuta posted:Don’t they all sort of wander out and get killed for no reason in TUC? If they’d just waited a few hours they’d have a good shot at salvation instead of (probably?) eternal torment. Sad! Crap, I hadn't even thought of that. Instead of trying to attack him, they should have just invited him in to look at the Inverse Fire thing. Sure, it ddn't work, but they didn't know that; in their experience everyone who looked upon it converted. and if it failed, well, they'd have more bigshots to try and contain the aftermath. But yeah, comparing it to Lost is pretty appropriate. Mimara gets the role of WAAALLLLTTTT! as someone supposed to be of cosmic importance t the plot who just vanishes like a fart in a hurricane.
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Nov 29, 2017 02:01
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Syzygy Stardust posted:The Dunyain probably wanted them culled. So why not just kill them? They got rid of the coolest evil sorcerer we never got to see, I doubt they couldn't off a few Erratics. Also, suppose Kellhus was having an off day and one of them managed a lucky hit and killed him. Ooops, no more No-God! Fan-wankery to cover up needless complexity/senselessness is still wankery.
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Nov 29, 2017 03:14
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skasion posted:
Yeah, so sad how they are a barely-mentioned source of brief bathos! As for the question, it seems that even if the gods can't see Mog-Pharau directly, they can still see the effect he has people/the world. It's still dumb and kinda self-defeating, but can't reach maximum edge unless every last detail is accounted for!
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Jan 31, 2018 13:26
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skasion posted:I don’t know if it’s really all in the payoff, but building to “Kellhus wins lol” is less cathartic to me than “Kellhus hubristically doomed civilization and died like a bitch lol” though I imagine some people might disagree. Even nihilism and plot twists have to be set up somehow. No author really gets to turn "Psyche! you thought you were reading utopic upbeat sci-fi, but now it's '120 Days of Sodom' in Space!" on a dime. It amuses me how Black Library's Night Lords trilogy is as unpretentions as it gets (it -knows- it's pulp), but they pull something akin to this off FAR more gracefully. Almost no one is good or even redeemable, but the characters feel real and their empty tragedies, big and small, have meaning to the narrative, even if not to the cold unfeeling universe. And the twist at the ending was delightful in its "Holy poo poo, I don't know f this makes things better or even more grim." So yeah, all in all glad to be done with Bakker. Hopes, as they say, was a mistake.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:43
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General Battuta posted:Waste of a good plot thread. That's basically The Second Apocalypse in capsule form.
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Feb 15, 2018 22:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I'm reading Ferdinand Braudel's The Mediterranean and his vision of the immense labours that made civilization thrive across the sea is much more engaging and existentially harrowing than Bakker's nihilism. But does it have a formerly good man eating/loving a livem radioactive, agonising leper that used to be his friend, on a journey to achieve nothing?
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Apr 19, 2018 21:44
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skasion posted:Don’t forget the cunny-liking dragon Like I ever could. It was like a finely-crafted literary kick to my junk. "Hey, this actually has some stakes and motion to it. Badly injured megawitch against evil dragon! Achamian facing off against a crabby dragon was also the high point of the other b...oh wait, it's ruined." It even gets solved off-camera, for added pointlesness.
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Apr 19, 2018 23:01
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Phanatic posted:But wasn’t that the whole point of GCH? To get the Ordeal to engage in something so evil and depraved that none of them, neither the nobles nor the rank and file, were under any illusion that they were anything but damned. No prior deeds, no prior bravery, no innate birthright, could represent salvation. GCH was necessary in order for all of them to appreciate that the only thing that could possibly save their souls henceforth was to conquer Golgotteroth, so that they’d die to the last man in the attempt rather than quail in the face of the enemy and retreat or surrender. Ehh, I don't feel it. It's not like the Ordeal was anything less than fanatical and devoted from the word Go. even the rivalry between Proyas and saubon was pretty much kept at the academic level. If there had been division or strife at any point, I could see something like that being necessary to forge them back together, but Kellhus was pretty much always in control and the only person who he couldn't mind-charm basically died randomly after achieving nothing after 3 books of buildup, so...no. At least the John Ringo books are honest about being edgelord fare.
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Apr 22, 2018 17:26
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Cnaiur is also being possessed or turning into a deity avatar at the very end. It's kinda dumb.
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Oct 9, 2018 13:20
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ChubbyChecker posted:One good thing about the last book was that the series finally got a female protagonist that wasn't a whore. Cunny Dragon begs to differ.
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Oct 10, 2018 03:01
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yeah, if there'd been some kind of actual resolution or closure it could have been a pretty ballsy ending, but it leaves pretty much everything unanswered and having it be because the smartest man in the world made a mistake is just boring. The smartest and most contrived. I still don't get why he went back for Esmenet; it's hinted that the sranc meat changed him, but it's very poorly established and vanishes as soon as it appears, so it seems Bakker just wanted to have all the main characters together for the big ending and didn't care much about how it happened. I think one of the reasons the author leaves so much in the dark is that it would seem dumb and forced if it was part of the narrative.
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Oct 10, 2018 23:00
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Now now, there's no weird sex in Brandon Sanderson. Or so unspeakable and vile that any page or screen would catch fire then melt into sulphur is he ever put them down.
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Oct 12, 2018 14:14
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