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Srice posted:Shaft is real cool at making the most out of their time and money in general, I've been following them on and off since the Zetsubou Sensei days and it's amazing to see how far their style has evolved. They frequently take shortcuts but they're really smart about how they take them so it's rarely noticed unless you're paying close attention. Except for original bakemonogatari, obvs
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Feb 9, 2016 21:49
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Namtab posted:Except for original bakemonogatari, obvs Yah. Going back to it after seeing the later seasons is a weird feeling.
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Feb 9, 2016 21:53
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Namtab posted:To move back to madoka, and potentially a point that I made about the Lord justice reviews I have a question. You also have to take into account that she's... er, 14, really?
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Feb 9, 2016 21:57
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^^^ I think Lord Justice's gripe is partly with Madoka's actions after becoming a god, since you would imagine she would no longer have the maturity of just a 14 year old. But this has no bearing on her wish, which I think was definitely a good one given what she knew at the time.Namtab posted:To move back to madoka, and potentially a point that I made about the Lord justice reviews I have a question. The impression I get is that Lord Justice might be assuming that Madoka had the ability to do something like completely remove the magical girl system (I think he mentioned at some point that he doesn't trust Kyubey's claim that human civilization is dependent upon magical girl wishes/activity) and that Madoka kept the magical girl system because she has a sort of religious faith in it. But I don't think the show gives us enough information to come to any conclusion on either one of these things (and there are reasons for her to hesitate to completely eliminate magical girls that make perfect sense). I think that, even in the absolute worst case scenario, Madoka's worst crime is "maybe not making an optimal wish", since her actions still undoubtedly had a net positive effect. One other point that is technically valid but I think is something we're just supposed to ignore is the fact that Madoka, being omniscient, should have been aware since becoming a god that Homura would go off the deep end and do the things she ended up doing, so in a sense Madoka should have known the end effect of her actions on Homura (in the same way you can predict a ball you drop is going to hit the ground) and acted to avoid that outcome. But, again, I think that this, while logical, is over-analyzing things and not something we're supposed to take away from the show/movie. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 22:02
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Namtab posted:To move back to madoka, and potentially a point that I made about the Lord justice reviews I have a question. Destroy the system, come what may. I don't believe the Incubators, and neither should she, given how they operate. With that said, this is why I separate belief in the system from continuing that system. In the end, a lot of the hard facts around how the system works aren't known, and we end up getting into debates around vague text. My issue with Madoka isn't so much that she continued the system, it's that she believes this was the morally correct choice and shows no perspective on what she did. I would honestly be a lot lighter on Madoka if she showed some remorse over having to maintain such an obviously awful system, but she doesn't. She actively goes out of her way to glorify Magical Girls. Say what you will about the end of the text, but the middle of the series was very clearly about showcasing how Magical Girls actually work in practice, and none of that has changed. Sayaka dying for the exact reason she did in the old world is proof of this. Magical Girls still destroy the person involved with becoming a Magical Girl and bring suffering to everyone around them. Madoka ignores this, and this is my problem with her character.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:05
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Lord Justice posted:Destroy the system, come what may. I don't believe the Incubators, and neither should she, given how they operate. I 100% disagree with this. I think it would have been super dumb for her to take such a massive risk. She did not know what the results of her wish would be when making it, and for all we know getting rid of the magical girl system could have been catastrophic. While the magical girl system sucks, it doesn't suck so much that it's worth risking all of human civiliation (in terms of harm done, it's sort of like making a wish to eliminate malaria that also has the potential to irreversibly ruin human civilization). Her wish was actually a good/pragmatic idea in that it was a pretty safe way to ensure some improvement, without risking some completely unpredictable result. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 22:08
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Ytlaya posted:I 100% disagree with this. I think it would have been super dumb for her to take such a massive risk. She did not know what the results of her wish would be when making it, and for all we know getting rid of the magical girl system could have been catastrophic. While the magical girl system sucks, it doesn't suck so much that it's worth risking all of human civiliation. Her wish was actually a good idea in that it was a pretty safe way to ensure some improvement, without risking some completely unpredictable result. Actually, it's not. Think about it. What do Witches do that's really bad? Kill people. So removing Witches means... Suddenly a bunch of people who were dead suddenly aren't. Her wish should have completely changed the world into an unrecognizable state, it just didn't because that's outside the scope of what the series was doing. Essentially, she took a massive, civilization changing risk anyway, it just managed to work out.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:11
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Lord Justice posted:I haven't. I've only heard awful things about SHAFT's other works (the sexualization of minors primarily) which killed any interest I had in checking out those works. Fair enough, not all of us are as desensitised to anime's common problems and nor should we be. Bakemonogatari on its own is no worse in this respect than many other shows, but some of the sequels get seriously skeevy.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:21
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Lord Justice posted:Destroy the system, come what may. I don't believe the Incubators, and neither should she, given how they operate. Incubators were right. Humanity no longer exists. drat, what a selfish wish. Lord Justice posted:With that said, this is why I separate belief in the system from continuing that system. In the end, a lot of the hard facts around how the system works aren't known, and we end up getting into debates around vague text. My issue with Madoka isn't so much that she continued the system, it's that she believes this was the morally correct choice and shows no perspective on what she did. I would honestly be a lot lighter on Madoka if she showed some remorse over having to maintain such an obviously awful system, but she doesn't. She actively goes out of her way to glorify Magical Girls. You posit that madoka made the morally inferior choice while ignoring the fact that her solution benefits a population of people, whereas the potential consequence of the other choice is that everyone she loves is dead and has never existed.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:28
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^^^ Yeah, I forgot to mention the fact that the show never shows the incubators directly lying even once. So your claim that they might lie has zero evidence to back it up and quite a bit to suggest it isn't true.Lord Justice posted:Actually, it's not. Think about it. What do Witches do that's really bad? Kill people. So removing Witches means... Suddenly a bunch of people who were dead suddenly aren't. Her wish should have completely changed the world into an unrecognizable state, it just didn't because that's outside the scope of what the series was doing. Essentially, she took a massive, civilization changing risk anyway, it just managed to work out. That's a decent point, though I think there are several counter-points to consider here: 1. Even though her wish carried a big risk, it was still a smaller risk than removing magical girls entirely. Even if Kyubey may have been lying, he still informed her that civilization wouldn't exist without magical girls. So she had at least one person explicitly tell her that a wish to remove magical girls would have that effect. So it's reasonable for her to believe that, at the very least, the wish she made has a lower chance of some catastrophic outcome than wishing to eliminate the entire magical girl system. 2. Madoka may have understood, or at least believed, that despair will always exist and that, as a result, there should always be something around to fight it. So even ignoring the whole "civilization might not exist" stuff, eliminating magical girls carries the risk of letting despair - in whatever form it takes - run rampant. 3. In addition to the words Madoka spoke when giving her wish, it's possible that Kyubey is also able to read the intention of it and means by which Madoka wants the wish executed. So when Madoka says she wanted to eliminate all witches before they're born, it's possible she knew that she wants to do it by becoming a goddess who swoops in to fetch the souls of all magical girls. So basically the point here is that even though her own wish carried a significant risk, it was still a much smaller risk than the wish you're proposing. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 22:35
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Lord Justice posted:Say what you will about the end of the text, but the middle of the series was very clearly about showcasing how Magical Girls actually work in practice, and none of that has changed. Sayaka dying for the exact reason she did in the old world is proof of this. Magical Girls still destroy the person involved with becoming a Magical Girl and bring suffering to everyone around them. Madoka ignores this, and this is my problem with her character. This poo poo again? We have provided you lots of examples of why becoming a magical girl is good. a) It can prolong their lives (as in Mami's case), b) it can help other people, c) they destroy witches, d) they are not guaranteed to become witches. And after madoka does her wish everything gets better, even if Homura doesn't like it. You just ignore all that to come to your arbitrary conclusion, which is why you're full of poo poo.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:46
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From a narrative standpoint I would hate for Madoka to wish away the entire system, since it would feel too cheap. Too easy. Just making everything perfect like that would feel unearned to me. Like at that point you might as well be wishing for more wishes. Srice fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 22:49
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Lord Justice posted:Destroy the system, come what may. I don't believe the Incubators, and neither should she, given how they operate. Welcome back, Clawshrimpy.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:51
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I've said it before but Kyubey is a far, far less interesting character if he's lying. Instead of being a devil that tempts others with promises, it makes him into a cheap con artist.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:53
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I wish this was a Studio Ghibli anime! There, most problems solved.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:54
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Not to mention that given Urobuchi's obsession with exposition, if Kyubey was a liar I'm sure that at some point we'd be told about it in a p blunt way.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:55
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Namtab posted:Incubators were right. Humanity no longer exists. drat, what a selfish wish. No more of a risk than destroying Witches, considering the catastrophic effect on history it should have had given a bunch of people being alive who weren't going back to pre-history. Madoka's wish in the series was still an insane risk, it just worked out. Namtab posted:This is exactly what I and others mean when we accuse you of handwaving away what suits you. Throughout the show we are shown that while the incubators often twist the truth, they never directly lie. When they theorize that the human race wouldn't have existed they are basing this on the best information they have available, which is presumably that enough cavemen made wishes that advanced human evolution means they can posit that humanity as we know it wouldn't exist without the system. The potential consequence of the wish she made was that everyone she loved being dead and/or never existing. Sayaka is dead for a start, and what if, some guy, say a young American boy, who, instead of being killed by a Witch, grew up, fought in the war against Japan, and killed Junko or Tomohisa's father or mother or both? On and on it goes. Madoka made a massive risk with her wish, so I don't feel pointing out the negative consequences of the other option really apply because they also apply to the wish she made. And I'm not handwaving away the fact that the Incubators don't lie. What you're missing is that they don't just twist the truth, they twist it to serve their own interests:  Kyouko: "Is there any way to get her Soul Gem back?" Kyuubey: "Not that I know of." Kyouko: "So there could be some way you don't know of?" Kyuubey: "As magical girls, your existence already defies established logic. I wouldn't be surprised no matter what implausible feats you managed to accomplish." Kyouko: "So you're saying it's possible?" Kyuubey: "No one has ever done it before, so I don't know how you'd go about it. Unfortunately, I have no way of advising you on the matter." Kyouko: "I wouldn't need your advice anyway." He says he can't advise her, and yet:  Homura: "Was there really any chance for Sakura Kyouko to save Miki Sayaka?" Kyuubey: "Of course not. She should have known that it was impossible." Homura: "Why didn't you stop her, then?" Kyuubey: "I would have stopped her from needlessly sacrificing herself, of course. But in this case, getting out of the picture served an important purpose. Now you're the only magical girl left to face the Walpurgisnacht." Essentially, the Incubators are more than willing to assert something as "true" when convenient for them, then turn around and say the opposite. It strikes me as far too convenient that Magical Girls just happen to be necessary for civilization, especially in the context in which it is said. They're trying to get Madoka to believe that Magical Girls are necessary, and all they really have is a supposition which they cast as being "true". It's not a lie because they don't know the answer, but that doesn't make it true, and I'm not inclined to believe them on any supposition given some outstanding evidence to support it. Showing a clip show of Cleopatra, Joan, and Himiko doesn't cut it. In short, we don't know whether Magical Girls are necessary or not, but I do know they destroy the people involved with the system, bring suffering to everyone around them by dying, and Madoka's wish was no more or less a giant risk than removing them. trucutru posted:This poo poo again? We have provided you lots of examples of why becoming a magical girl is good. a) It can prolong their lives (as in Mami's case), b) it can help other people, c) they destroy witches, d) they are not guaranteed to become witches. And after madoka does her wish everything gets better, even if Homura doesn't like it. You just ignore all that to come to your arbitrary conclusion, which is why you're full of poo poo. Counterpoint since you keep accusing me of ignoring things: Why are you ignoring Sayaka, Kyouko, and Nagisa? I'm aware Magical Girls have some good elements, but they also have a lot of bad points and I feel these bad points override any good they might do. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 23:03
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Let's see what is the lead designer, Aoki Ume's official take on Madoka's wish. Yup, that's a good wish.
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Feb 9, 2016 23:04
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Lord Justice posted:Counterpoint since you keep accusing me of ignoring things: Why are you ignoring Sayaka, Kyouko, and Nagisa? I'm aware Magical Girls have some good elements, but they also have a lot of bad points and I feel these bad points override any good they might do. Not ignoring them, they too are mostly good (Not Nagisa's, who is a stupid idiot). Sayaka did doom herself but, in the process, healed whathisname, saved a shitload of people and hosed with a couple (net positive). Kyouko saved even more lives and prevented Sayaka from causing havok (net positive). We are not shown how much destruction Nagisa did create, but her situation is entirely a net negative. You always try to frame all stuff subjectively (to weasel out of any issue) but yes, I would say that saving more lives than you doom, as what we're shown with Sayaka, Kyouko, Mami, and Homura is objectively better than not doing so and letting the witches alone. The "not living in caves" is also objectively a good thing. So yeah, you think it is bad. Ok. But it is shown to be good. trucutru fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 23:11
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trucutru posted:Not ignoring them, they too are mostly good (Not Nagisa's, who is a stupid idiot). Sayaka did doom herself but, in the process, healed whathisname, saved a shitload of people and hosed with a couple (net positive). Kyouko saved even more lives and prevented Sayaka from causing havok (net positive). We are not shown how much destruction Nagisa did create, but her situation is entirely a net negative. This is essentially the problem with this, because this is incredibly utilitarian and I don't agree with that at all. Witches aren't the only thing in the equation, the life of the Magical Girl also is, and that matters. Kyouko's entire family is dead in a murder-sucide due to Kyouko's wish. Sayaka was killed due to her wish. Nagisa just straight up died, also due to her wish. Sacrificing people to save people is garbage, straight up. Kyouko's family and Sayaka dying aren't a good thing, and you can't possibly spin it that way. Edit: At this point I'm going to stop arguing on this. I don't believe in utilitarianism as a standard of ethics and I never will, as I don't believe in sacrificing people for some "greater good". People dying for any reason is crap, and if it can be avoided, then it should be. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 23:17
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Lord Justice posted:This is essentially the problem with this, because this is incredibly utilitarian and I don't agree with that at all. Witches aren't the only thing in the equation, the life of the Magical Girl also is, and that matters. Kyouko's entire family is dead in a murder-sucide due to Kyouko's wish. Sayaka was killed due to her wish. Nagisa just straight up died, also due to her wish. Sacrificing people to save people is garbage, straight up. Kyouko's family and Sayaka dying aren't a good thing, and you can't possibly spin it that way. Well, tough titties, when you're looking at things objectively that's how one has to roll. You can have your opinion, fine, but unless it's completely grounded on what we're shown and told then you don't get to say stuff like "Magical Girls still destroy the person involved with becoming a Magical Girl and bring suffering to everyone around them." when it's clearly not true, as some of the examples show. Sacrificing people to save more people is a net positive. Edit: And self-sacrifice to help others is considered almost universally a virtue. trucutru fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 23:21
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trucutru posted:Well, tough titties, when you're looking at things objectively that's how one has to roll. You can have your opinion, fine, but unless it's completely grounded on what we're shown and told then you don't get to say stuff like "Magical Girls still destroy the person involved with becoming a Magical Girl and bring suffering to everyone around them." when it's clearly not true, as some of the examples show. There's examples either way, and you're ignoring the bad parts just as much as you say I'm ignoring the good parts. Yes, in theory, but you know the problem with that? It's theory. You know what the practice for that is? Nagasaki and Hiroshima getting wiped off the map. Go ask those survivors how they would feel about your "sacrificing people" standard. I'm done.
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Feb 9, 2016 23:27
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Lord Justice posted:There's examples either way, and you're ignoring the bad parts just as much as you say I'm ignoring the good parts. Yes, in theory, but you know the problem with that? It's theory. You know what the practice for that is? Nagasaki and Hiroshima getting wiped off the map. Go ask those survivors how they would feel about your "sacrificing people" standard. AHahahaha. But yeah, if they saved more lives than would have been lost otherwise, and prevented more suffering than they caused, it is indeed a net positive, awful as it may be. But that's theory, You know what the practice for vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv trucutru fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 23:29
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A man is in a coma with only a very slim chance of waking up, Lord justice needs his kidney. Rip
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Feb 9, 2016 23:38
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Utilinarianism is absolutely a good thing in certain situations. Think medical triage, think the distribution of resources in disaster relief. You have an overtly black and white view of certain things given that you went straight to nukes when challenged on complex ethical principles. It's childish.
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Feb 9, 2016 23:43
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Namtab posted:Utilinarianism is absolutely a good thing in certain situations. Think medical triage, think the distribution of resources in disaster relief. What you just said is giving me flashbacks to the Baal mod challenge.
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Feb 9, 2016 23:45
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The whole "should we nuke a million people if we can save a million and five hundred thousand" is a dumb question in the first place because a) we would be way deep in war crime territory at this point and b) any hypothetical scenario where that could be reasonable would convoluted as gently caress. A more reasonable comparison would be with triage, wherein patients during crisis situations are ranked by how heavily injured they are and how likely they are survived during first response. Patients that are heavily injured but likely to survive if given treatment are prioritised whereas patients that are unlikely to survive are at most given analgesics but still at the bottom of the priority change. In an ideal situation everyone would be given equal and appropriate treatment, unfortunately when a building collapses or a train derails or any other horrible thing happens the situation is rarely ideal. Edit: fucken namtab
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Feb 9, 2016 23:46
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Srice posted:What you just said is giving me flashbacks to the Baal mod challenge. I already mentioned the clawshrimpy parallels this morning. It's uncanny how apt the analogy became after some analysis of the analysis.
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Feb 9, 2016 23:46
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I don't think wishes or fighting despair as a magical whatever is bad. It's an immense self-sacrifice, even if the wish itself is misused. Problems arise when the magical girl's situation is deliberately exploited (what Kyubey was doing before Madoka's wish), or when they don't know what they're getting themselves into. Both problems are somewhat addressed by Madoka's wish. They still exist, of course - there is a certain personal responsibility, things can go horribly wrong, people may simply not be as ready as they think they are. I believe only the later is truly a problem that the series can address. If people have genuine regret, there should be a way out. Now, is there a way out? None so far; magical girls will die as magical girls. (Except for wishing to be one instead of someone else, possibly!) That can destroy a person, undoubtedly. Doesn't have to, though. Maybe things will improve in that regard once Madoka is confronted with her own regrets - even she's bound to have some. Could be something simple like making the phenomenon known. 
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Feb 9, 2016 23:48
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Wow, is it already time for this one again?
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Feb 10, 2016 00:09
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trucutru posted:Let's see what is the lead designer, Aoki Ume's official take on Madoka's wish. Ume Aoki is the best.
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Feb 10, 2016 00:14
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Lord Justice posted:Edit: At this point I'm going to stop arguing on this. I don't believe in utilitarianism as a standard of ethics and I never will, as I don't believe in sacrificing people for some "greater good". People dying for any reason is crap, and if it can be avoided, then it should be. People who say they don't believe in utilitarianism are almost always referring to stuff that isn't actually utilitarian. For example, if you knew for a fact that killing 500,000 would save 1,000,000 and that there were no other reasonable alternatives, then obviously you should do it. But in practice, you generally can't know the results of your actions for a fact, so the utilitarian thing to do is to generally avoid solutions that cause a lot of harm in and of themselves, because if you're wrong in such a case you've still managed to cause a lot of harm. But an "atomic bomb" type analogy doesn't make sense here in the first place. If you absolutely must use a "sacrificing thousands of people" analogy, then the Madoka situation is more like this: The current status quo involves X people dying and Madoka has the option of decreasing that number. In other words, she isn't deciding to sacrifice people to prevent some hypothetical bad outcome; she's taking an existing bad outcome and just decreasing it. Either way, the issue here isn't one of utilitarianism in the first place - it's one of risk management. Madoka wants a reasonable return on her wish with reasonable risk. The risk associated with eliminating witches (a small percent of people being alive/dead who weren't before and the associated potential "butterfly effect") has a relatively small chance of resulting in the complete destruction of human civilization. On the other hand, she was literally told explicitly by a guy who seems to never lie that magical girls/wishes have had an integral part in the development of human civilization, so there's a MASSIVE risk associated with a wish to eliminate the magical girl system. The core problem with your argument is that you're assuming all risk is equal, when we have clear reason to believe that it isn't.
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Feb 10, 2016 01:07
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Hi Kyubey. decided I'm gonna go through with the whole magical girl thing. My wish? Well I want to make the world a better place. Please gas the ADTRW Madoka thread.
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Feb 10, 2016 01:30
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Yes_Cantaloupe posted:Ume Aoki is a giant pervert. Fixed for accuracy
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Feb 10, 2016 04:54
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PerrineClostermann posted:Fixed for accuracy Maybe, but she draws some cute poo poo and provides answers to what would happen if Madoka wished to break the system  Bonus: 
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Feb 10, 2016 05:19
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Madoka's face in the last panel is golden
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Feb 10, 2016 09:56
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Feb 10, 2016 16:40
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Homura and the Lizard Girl “I haven’t forgotten what you told me, Homura. We have no tomorrow, but there’s still hope for the future. Someday, the world will no longer need us. No need for the Demon, or her shadow.” Part 2: Production Discontinuity Now that I have laid out the evidence for this second “Magical Girl” Homura in terms of the meta-narrative, I’ll go into the evidence surrounding the idea of the production of the Concept Movie and Mami’s role here.  To begin with, Mami in the Concept Movie seems to exist as a “God of Battle”, and is opposing Homura in some fashion. Given the existence of Demon Homura as essentially the universe and a godlike being, even a “God of Battle” Mami could not realistically oppose her. Fighting Demon Homura “conventionally” is a losing proposition from the start, and thus it is strange that such a focus is on Mami attempting to do so. However, if we assume that there is a second “Magical Girl” Homura, and that this is a larger production created by Demon Homura, then the “God of Battle” Mami begins to make more sense. In effect, she is opposing this second “Magical Girl” Homura within a production put on by Demon Homura. Thus the conflict here is not one against Demon Homura, who can only really be opposed by Madoka herself, but a play between two principle actors and “rival” characters: Mami and “Homura”. This would work nicely in a narrative sense, as it would not interfere with the larger conflict between Homura and Madoka. However, there is an alternative hypothesis here, which ties into the line said by Mami in the Concept Movie: Mami: "It's just the matter of you also hiding from yourself your time spent together with someone" If Homura is hiding something from “herself”, then it suggests that, first, this second Homura could be acting independently in her relationship with Madoka that was discussed earlier. In effect, this second Homura is attempting to hide the fact that she has become romantically involved with Madoka from Demon Homura herself and managed to achieve this somehow. Second, this then changes the conflict with Mami and Homura around, in that Mami is allied with Demon Homura against this second Homura. This would rather neatly explain where her new power has come from, as well as why Demon Homura is allowing it. With that all said, this is still an early hypothesis based on available data from a concept movie alone. In that vein, there is also two “discontinuities” within the Concept Movie that work against this hypothesis, at least to a degree. The first is this shot of Homura, wreathed in fire and stylized to look “demonic”, but principally, still wearing her Magical Girl outfit:  This looks to be a direct reference to Demon Homura, as the fire is a repetition of theme from Rebellion (the element of fire is a crucial aspect of Rebellion, but I will go in-depth on it in another essay), as well as the stylization having a “devil” look to it. In short, this seems to suggest that the “Magical Girl” Homura is also Demon Homura. The second discontinuity is the hand which “Magical Girl” Homura is using to flip her hair. Homura flipping her hair is an often repeated visual trick, but there is a specific facet to it here. In every instance except one of the hair flip, Homura is using her left hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfd_Y6T7ZTM However, in Demon Homura’s case, she uses her right hand, not her left. In the Concept Movie, this happens again:  This again seems to suggest that this Homura we are seeing is Demon Homura, as she is using the same hand that Demon Homura does. I feel there is a counter-argument to these discontinuities however. While this “Magical Girl” Homura may look to be and have some of the mannerisms of Demon Homura, this may in fact be the point. That this second Homura is meant to play the role of “Demon Homura”, and in a larger sense, meant to fill an antagonist role to the protagonist “God of Battle” Mami. Regardless, as I mentioned before, this idea inherent to the “discontinuities” here is why I believe that Homura is truly awake within this world, unlike Madoka in Rebellion. In whatever form she might be in, Demon Homura is active within this world, either in this “Magical Girl” form, or orchestrating things from the shadows. Now that I have finished my visual analysis of the Concept Movie, I'll be moving onto my final analysis of the Concept Movie, which will speculate on the overarching narrative of the new Madoka project and its place in the larger franchise. What I believe Madoka Magica is finally leading to, which is The Redemption of Homura Akemi.
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Feb 11, 2016 09:33
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where is the final essay?
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Mar 2, 2016 22:56
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| # ? May 4, 2024 22:48 |
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I delayed it because I've been busy and I was hoping for a clean version of the Concept Movie which never happened. I'll probably post it sometime within the next few days. With that said, here's an addendum to my last analysis, and something of a continued analysis of the visuals in the Concept Movie: From what I've pieced together, it is possible to sketch together a rough timeline of some of the events in the Concept Movie. We begin with Sayaka's uprising and eventual defeat and imprisonment. In the background where Sayaka is lying on the ground with Oktavia over her, we can see the moon in the background:  There is two important things to note about the moon. First, it is in its third phase, and second, it is the correct size and exactly where it is supposed to be. Prior to this in the Concept Movie. we see Kyouko framed against the moon:  As we can see, the moon is now full, indicating at least a month or so between Sayaka's defeat and that moment with Kyouko, and secondly, it is far larger than it is supposed to be. In other words, it is much closer to the Earth than it should be. Why? This is why:  In this gif, I've reversed the order of events from the Concept Movie to show the real cause and effect. The moon is entering the atmosphere and crashing into the ground, which is what is causing the giant wall of fire. This suggests that the structure Mami is standing on later in the Concept Movie is involved with knocking the moon out of orbit, and we can see it in that sequence. In short, what I have surmised here is that, about a month after Sayaka's defeat, Mami and Kyouko also attempt to fight Homura. I am assuming that Kyouko is fighting Homura, as she seems to be fighting something that looks like familiars. During the fight, Mami somehow manages to knock the moon out of orbit into Homura, and this is what causes Homura to be engulfed in flames later in the Concept Movie: Which either A, is Demon Homura being revealed and taking down Mami and Kyouko, or B, the "Magical Girl" Homura taking on a "demon" form and doing the same. As for why Mami would go to such lengths in order to defeat Homura, one compelling reason could be this:  I.E, the battle involves Homura utilizing an entire military's worth of hardware, which prompts Mami to crash the moon into the Earth as a counter. However, I feel the real takeaway here is when in the new project this occurs. I believe it will be early, as to showcase that, even with massive upgrades in power and the raising of stakes to absurd levels, none of the fighting actually matters. None of them can fight Demon Homura, and the end result of these fights is Homura triumphant. Then, the project will move into what it is actually about, which is defined in the early sequence with Madoka dancing The Dying Swan and Homura and Madoka's dialogue on the definition of happiness. Madoka does look a bit older in that sequence, and Homura's uniform seems to be a modified variant of the middle school uniform, perhaps suggesting that that sequence takes place in high school several years after the events outlined in this post. However, for what the project is really about, I'll be going into that with my final essay.
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Mar 3, 2016 04:36
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