guns are obviously deadlier than knives

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > guns are obviously deadlier than knives

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

I keep reading in gun control debates that guns are not better than other means, specifically knives, for killing people. Let's address this in several ways

Logic problem:

Using a knife, kill this man in the next 20 seconds.

Visual suggestions:

Critical thinking:

If it is imperative that you have access to lethal force to defend yourself, and guns are not better than knives at killing people, why do you need guns?

If guns are not better at killing people than knives why has every military in the world for the last couple centuries preferred to make guns and not knives their primary weapons?

If guns are not better at killing people than knives why in the real world are there 5 and a half times more murders with guns than with knives?

If gunshot wounds are only as deadly or less deadly than knife wounds then why does the watermelon above seem to be taking much more damage than one would expect if it was stabbed?

If guns are not better at killing people than knives why in the real world is the rate of successful suicide by firearm 85 times that of successful suicide by cutting or piercing?

Scientific studies:

quote:

Authors
Muckart DJ. Meumann C. Botha JB.
Title
The changing pattern of penetrating torso trauma in KwaZulu/Natal�a
clinical and pathological review.
Source
South African Medical Journal. 85(11):1172-4, 1995 Nov.
Abstract
The number of patients who sustained penetrating torso trauma and were
admitted to King Edward VIII Hospital and the surgical intensive care unit
were reviewed over 10- and 5-year periods respectively. For the last 4
months of 1992, a comparison was made between victims of trauma admitted
to hospital and those whose bodies were taken directly to the South
African Police medicolegal laboratories in Gale Street, Durban, where the
majority of medicolegal autopsies in the Durban metropolitan area are
performed. The total number of hospital admissions has not changed during
the last decade, but the aetiology of injury has altered considerably.
Stab wounds have declined by 30% whereas gunshot wounds have increased by
more than 800%. The ratio of stab to gunshot wounds admitted to the
intensive care unit reversed within the 5-year period 1987-1992. Direct
admission to the mortuary was three times as common in cases of gunshot
compared with stab wounds. The hospital mortality rate for gunshot wounds
was 8 times that for stab wounds. The establishment of dedicated trauma
centres is essential for the treatment of these injuries, and strategies
to control the use of firearms are vital.

Authors
Heary RF. Vaccaro AR. Mesa JJ. Balderston RA.
Title
Thoracolumbar infections in penetrating injuries to the spine.
Source
Orthopedic Clinics of North America. 27(1):69-81, 1996 Jan.
Abstract
A detailed review of the TJUH experience and the published literature on
gunshot and stab wounds to the spine has been presented. The following
statements are supported. (1) Military (high-velocity) gunshot wounds are
distinct entities, and the management of these injuries cannot be carried
over to civilian (low-velocity) handgun wounds. (2) Gunshot wounds with a
resultant neurologic deficit are much more common than stab wounds and
carry a worse prognosis. (3) Spinal infections are rare following a
penetrating wound of the spine and a high index of suspicion is needed to
detect them. (4) Extraspinal infections (septic complications) are much
more common than spinal infections following a gunshot or stab wound to
the spine. (5) Steroids are of no use in gunshot wounds to the spine. In
fact, there was an increased incidence of spinal and extraspinal
infections without a difference in neurologic outcome compared with those
who did not receive steroids. (6) Spinal surgery is rarely indicated in
the management of penetrating wounds of the spine.

Authors
Velmahos GC. Degiannis E. Hart K. Souter I. Saadia R.
Title
Changing profiles in spinal cord injuries and risk factors influencing
recovery after penetrating injuries.
Source
Journal of Trauma. 38(3):334-7, 1995 Mar.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: The changing profiles of spinal cord injuries in South Africa
are addressed in this study. DESIGN: A retrospective analysis of 551
patients with spinal cord injury. MATERIALS AND METHODS: The cause of
injury was motor vehicle crashes in 30%, stab wounds in 26%, gunshot
wounds in 35%, and miscellaneous causes 9%. MEASUREMENTS AND MAIN RESULTS:
There was a significant shift from stab wounds towards bullet wounds over
the last five years. Bullet spinal cord injuries increased from 30 cases
in 1988 to 55 cases in 1992, while stab spinal cord injuries decreased
from 39 cases in 1988 to 20 cases in 1992. The incidence of spinal cord
injuries following a motor vehicle crash showed a declining tendency after
a transient increase (28 cases in 1988, 40 in 1990, 31 in 1992). Moreover,
the problem of severe septic complications has been investigated and
various risk factors for sepsis that might impair the rehabilitation
process have been examined. The risk of developing septic complications
was higher in gunshot spine injuries (21 cases out of 193) than in knife
injuries (5 cases out of 143). The presence of a retained bullet did not
seem to increase the chances for sepsis. In seven patients the sepsis was
the direct consequence of the retained bullet while in 14 patients sepsis
developed with no bullet in situ. Furthermore, the site of the injury
(cervical, thoracic, lumbar spine) did not correlate with the
abovementioned risks. CONCLUSIONS: Gunshots carry a heavier prognosis.
Only 32% of our gunshot cases underwent a significant recovery as opposed
to 61% of stab cases and 44% of the motor vehicle crash victims.

Authors
Degiannis E. Velmahos GC. Florizoone MG. Levy RD. Ross J. Saadia R.
Title
Penetrating injuries of the popliteal artery: the Baragwanath experience.
Source
Annals of the Royal College of Surgeons of England. 76(5):307-10, 1994
Sep.
Abstract
This study describes the management of 43 patients with penetrating injury
of the popliteal artery. Of these patients, 33 (76.5%) had bullet wounds,
four patients (9.5%) pellet wounds and 6 (14%) knife wounds. Patients with
�hard� signs of arterial injury underwent exploration without preoperative
angiograms. There were no negative explorations. Patients with only �soft�
signs of arterial injury underwent preoperative angiograms. Of this group,
75% had positive angiograms and underwent exploration. There were no
false-positive or false-negative preoperative angiograms in the group of
patients with �soft� signs in this study. Definitive orthopaedic
management of associated fractures followed vascular reconstruction. There
was no difference in the short-term patency of autologous saphenous vein
graft as against PTFE grafts. Fasciotomy was performed on patients who had
arterial and venous injury or presented late. Overall amputation rate was
14% and for bullet injuries 18%.

Authors
Rothlin M. Vila A. Trentz O.
Title
[Results of surgery in gunshot and stab injuries of the trunk]. [German]
Source
Helvetica Chirurgica Acta. 60(5):817-22, 1994 Jul.
Abstract
Between 1981 and 1990, 105 patients suffering from gunshot and stab wounds
were admitted to the Department of Surgery of Zurich University Hospital.
There were 17 female and 88 male patients aged 16-74 years (average 31
years) whose charts were studied retrospectively. 44 patients demonstrated
gunshot injuries, while 60 suffered from stabwounds and 1 patient had
both. The injuries were the result of a crime in 59, a suicide in 33 and
an accident in 11 cases. In 2 patients the cause was not conclusive
proven. Injuries to the lung (n = 54), the liver (n = 27) and to the
stomach (n = 23) were seen most frequently. 45 patients underwent
laparotomy, while 16 had a thoracotomy performed. Both thoracotomy and
laparotomy were necessary in 10 cases. Complications were observed in
29.5% of the cases. They were significantly more frequent in patients with
gunshot injuries (p < 0.0004). Overall mortality amounted to 14.3% (n = 15).
Patients with gunshot wounds had a significantly higher mortality rate (p < 0.0005).
Debridement and selective closure of the wounds (n = 25) did not result in a
higher rate of abscess formation than open treatment (n = 17).

Authors
Degiannis E. Velmahos G. Krawczykowski D. Levy RD. Souter I. Saadia
R.
Title
Penetrating injuries of the subclavian vessels.
Source
British Journal of Surgery. 81(4):524-6, 1994 Apr.
Abstract
A study was made of 76 patients with subclavian vessel injury. The
mechanism of trauma was stabbing in 40 patients (53 per cent) and gunshot
in 36 (47 per cent). There were marked differences between the two groups
in clinical presentation, operative management and outcome. The group with
gunshot injury was characterized by a more immediate threat to life, and a
greater need for a median sternotomy and use of interposition grafts. The
mortality rate in patients with gunshot wounds was more than twice that in
the group with stab injury.

Authors
Velmahos GC. Degiannis E. Souter I. Saadia R.
Title
Penetrating trauma to the heart: a relatively innocent injury.
Source
Surgery. 115(6):694-7, 1994 Jun.
Abstract
BACKGROUND. The purpose of this study was to examine the mortality rate of
penetrating cardiac trauma in a large urban hospital. METHODS. This was a
retrospective study over a period of 5 years and 5 months of all patients
admitted alive with a stab or a gunshot cardiac injury. RESULTS. There
were 310 patients with a stab wound and 63 with a gunshot wound. The
overall mortality rate was 19%. The mortality rates for the stab and the
gunshot groups were 13% and 50.7%, respectively. In the 296 patients with
a cardiac stab wound confined to a single chamber and with no other
associated extracardiac injury the mortality rate was 8.5%. CONCLUSIONS.
An isolated cardiac stab wound is a relatively innocent injury in a
patient at a hospital accustomed to managing penetrating trauma
expeditiously.

Authors
Mock C. Pilcher S. Maier R.
Title
Comparison of the costs of acute treatment for gunshot and stab wounds:
further evidence of the need for firearms control [see comments].
Source
Journal of Trauma. 36(4):516-21; discussion 521-2, 1994 Apr.
Abstract
Gun control is proposed primarily to decrease the incidence of injury and
death from gunshot wounds (GSWs). We hypothesize that decreasing the
number of GSWs will also produce significant economic savings, even if
personal violence were to continue at the same rate, maintaining the same
overall incidence of penetrating trauma. We analyzed charges and
reimbursements for the treatment for all patients with GSWs (n = 1116) and
stab wounds (SWs) (n = 1529) admitted to a level I trauma center from 1986
through 1992. Mean and median charges were higher for GSWs ($14,541;
$7,541) than for SWs ($6,446; $4,249) (p < 0.05). There was a 12% per year
increase in the annual number of GSWs (p = 0.001), leading to a disproportionate
increase in the annual total charges for GSWs (p = 0.013), compared with SWs.
Public expenditures, including bad debt and government reimbursement,
increased for GSWs (p = 0.019) but not SWs. Thus, if all patients with GSWs
instead suffered SWs, there would be an annual savings of $1,290,000 overall
and of $981,000 of public funds from this institution alone. Treatment costs for
GSWs are higher than those for SWs and are rising more rapidly, with an increasing
amount of public funds going to meet these costs. Considerable savings to
society would accrue from any effort that decreased firearm injuries, even if the
same level of violence persisted using other weapons.

Authors
Rizoli SB. Mantovani M. Baccarin V. Vieira RW.
Title
Penetrating heart wounds.
Source
International Surgery. 78(3):229-30, 1993 Jul-Sep.
Abstract
In 3 years, 26 patients were operated for penetrating heart wounds at our
institution, the majority between 30 to 60 minutes after injury.
Twenty-two patients with a possible heart wound were immediately taken to
the operating room for thoracotomy. One patient initially underwent
laparotomy while 2 were observed before operating-room thoracotomy. One
patient underwent emergency-room thoracotomy. Three patients with no vital
signs on admission died, 82.6% of the remainder survived. Stab wounds
determined the best survival rate: 94%, whereas for gunshot wounds it was
only 50%. Our experience at this Brazilian Trauma Center reveals that
delay in reaching the hospital selected the patients, that clinical
condition on arrival, method of injury (knife or gunshot), emergency room
staffed with trauma surgeons and aggressive operating room treatment for
penetrating heart wounds results in a remarkable survival rate.
Emergency-room thoracotomy should be reserved for patients �in extremis�
or when there is no operating room available.

Authors
Saltzman LE. Mercy JA. O�Carroll PW. Rosenberg ML. Rhodes PH.
Title
Weapon involvement and injury outcomes in family and intimate assaults.
Source
JAMA. 267(22):3043-7, 1992 Jun 10.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE�To compare the risk of death and the risk of nonfatal injury
during firearm-associated family and intimate assaults (FIAs) with the
risks during non-firearm-associated FIAs. DESIGN�Records review of police
incident reports of FIAs that occurred in 1984. Victim outcomes (death,
nonfatal injury, no injury) and weapon involvement were examined for
incidents involving only one perpetrator. SETTING�City of Atlanta, Ga,
within Fulton County. PARTICIPANTS�Stratified sample (n = 142) of victims
of nonfatal FIAs, drawn from seven nonfatal crime categories, plus all
fatal victims (n = 23) of FIAs. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES�Risk of death (vs
nonfatal injury or no injury) during FIAs involving firearms, relative to
other types of weapons; risk of nonfatal injury (vs all other outcomes,
including death) during FIAs involving firearms, relative to other types
of weapons. RESULTS�Firearm-associated FIAs were 3.0 times (95%
confidence interval, 0.9 to 10.0) more likely to result in death than FIAs
involving knives or other cutting instruments and 23.4 times (95%
confidence interval, 7.0 to 78.6) more likely to result in death than FIAs
involving other weapons or bodily force. Overall, firearm-associated FIAs
were 12.0 times (95% confidence interval, 4.6 to 31.5) more likely to
result in death than non-firearm-associated FIAs. CONCLUSIONS�Strategies
for limiting the number of deaths and injuries resulting from FIAs include
reducing the access of potential FIA assailants to firearms, modifying
firearm lethality through redesign, and establishing programs for primary
prevention of violence among intimates.

Possible alternative explanations:

-A powerful daemon is manipulating our perceptions of reality
-???

# ? Jan 16, 2016 15:32

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# ? May 5, 2024 17:50

Mendicant: Sep 22, 2015; by zen death robot

# ? Jan 16, 2016 15:44

various cheeses: Jan 24, 2013

Literally the second his probation was up.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 15:50

visceril: Feb 24, 2008

Idunno dude knife attack is usually a one-shot but I have to dump a whole clip of my assault rifle to take down a guy

# ? Jan 16, 2016 15:52

various cheeses: Jan 24, 2013

That's a lot of words and effort to just say guns are better than knives. Like no poo poo that's why we invented them.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 15:53

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

various cheeses posted:

That's a lot of words and effort to just say guns are better than knives. Like no poo poo that's why we invented them.

I certainly agree that it's a very obvious and "no poo poo" kind of thing, which is why I'm continually baffled to read the very common opinions from the pro-gun side that a) knives are as deadly or deadlier than guns and b) the ever so slightly less idiotic but still ridiculous proposition that whatever weapon a person has access to is irrelevant.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:08

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

I could easily slay any gun's user with my steel. Only fools would deny the supremacy of the sword-saint's blade.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:12

various cheeses: Jan 24, 2013

So basically carrying a gun is the best choice.

Thanks for confirming that op.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:19

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

various cheeses posted:

So basically carrying a gun is the best choice.

Thanks for confirming that op.

Well yes, the best choice for killing a human, statistically: yourself, followed by someone you know.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:21

hallebarrysoetoro: Jun 14, 2003

If buckets kill more people per year than modern sporting rifles why is obama's liberal gay agenda to give our soldiers modern sporting rifles

if ted cruz is elected we will give our soldiers the buckets they deserve so they can defeat isis and black people that live in your neighborhood and eye your girlfriend

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:24

various cheeses: Jan 24, 2013

Were you planning this thread the entire time you were probated? I imagine it would be like not making GBS threads for a month. Did you have to offload your bad opinions on other websites to survive?

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:28

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Tezzor posted:

Well yes, the best choice for killing a human, statistically: yourself, followed by someone you know.

Well if you don't know somebody how would it make sense to shoot them??

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:33

Guy DeBorgore: Apr 6, 1994; Catnip is the opiate of the masses; Soiled Meat

OP clearly hasn't heard of a lil' thing I like to call the 21-foot rule.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:34

Octatonic: Sep 7, 2010

I'm sorry, but it's not time to talk about gunchat. The damage is too raw, and we need time to recover. gently caress you for politicizing this when people are still reeling from the tragedy.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:37

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

SedanChair posted:

Well if you don't know somebody how would it make sense to shoot them??

A stranger trying to commit a crime against you, for example one of the epidemic of strangers bursting into our homes at night in melanin-induced death frenzies.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:42

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Tezzor posted:

A stranger trying to commit a crime against you, for example one of the epidemic of strangers bursting into our homes at night in melanin-induced death frenzies.

LOL those things are largely imaginary, but how revealing of you to make reference to them.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:46

Hollismason: Jun 30, 2007; FEEL FREE TO DISREGARD THIS POST

It is guaranteed to be lazy, ignorant, and/or uninformed.

I thought this was going to be a meet up where we proved this.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:52

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

*draws authentic Sadamune Hikoshiro steel and slices off all the gun barrels in this thread*

# ? Jan 16, 2016 16:56

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

If guns are so much better why have I been assaulted twice with idiots with knives while on the clock as an armed, armored courier but never with guns?

# ? Jan 16, 2016 17:21

TheImmigrant: Jan 18, 2011

Great, guns are dangerous.

What is to be done after the requisite hand-wringing?

# ? Jan 16, 2016 17:32

Mo_Steel: Mar 7, 2008; Let's Clock Into The Sunset Together; Fun Shoe

TheImmigrant posted:

Great, guns are dangerous.

What is to be done after the requisite hand-wringing?

Put all the guns into rockets and fire them into the sun.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 17:34

various cheeses: Jan 24, 2013

Mo_Steel posted:

Put all the guns into rockets and fire them into the sun.

Obama arms Mexican drug cartels, Syrian Rebels, and now aliens on the sun? When will the madness end??

# ? Jan 16, 2016 17:36

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

america isn't a very polite society so that old saying about being well armed seems untrue.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 17:47

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

In addition,

Tezzor posted:

Using a knife, kill this man in the next 20 seconds.

most people wouldn't be able to hit this guy with a gun no matter how long they took

# ? Jan 16, 2016 17:48

Pauline Kael: Oct 9, 2012; by Shine

TheImmigrant posted:

Great, guns are dangerous.

What is to be done after the requisite hand-wringing?

I'm just glad Tezzor is back to share his opinion on guns, I was starting to wonder if he had changed his mind. Tezzor, my previous offer still stands, if you're ever in the Albany, NY area, I'll take you to the range, you'll be like Piccard in the holodeck going back to Victorian London. God those episodes are tedious.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 17:55

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

LingcodKilla posted:

If guns are so much better why have I been assaulted twice with idiots with knives while on the clock as an armed, armored courier but never with guns?

I have no idea why those guys only had knives, but I am 100% positive it has nothing whatsoever to do with gun control

e: oop

Tezzor fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jan 16, 2016

# ? Jan 16, 2016 17:57

Cantorsdust: Aug 10, 2008; Infinitely many points, but zero length.

I agree, OP. Congrats on a successfully argued thread.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:07

archangelwar: Oct 28, 2004; Teaching Moments

various cheeses posted:

Were you planning this thread the entire time you were probated? I imagine it would be like not making GBS threads for a month. Did you have to offload your bad opinions on other websites to survive?

Says the guy who apparently considers the statement "guns are deadlier than knives" to be a bad opinion.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:10

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

Cantorsdust posted:

I agree, OP. Congrats on a successfully argued thread.

Thank you, friend.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:11

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

Cantorsdust posted:

I agree, OP. Congrats on a successfully argued thread.

I also agree and I am equally baffled. My former ceo tried to say knife deaths basically replaced gun deaths in the UK and I was baffled. I found a better job

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:13

World War Mammories: Aug 25, 2006

OP is correct but nothing matters, embrace death

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:21

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

Tezzor posted:

I have no idea why those guys only had guns, but I am 100% positive it has nothing whatsoever to do with gun control

I'll assume you meant "knives" but it just goes to show that stupid people will use whatever they can get their hands on to do stupid stuff. The technology is so primitive that anyone who actually wants a gun will have no problem getting one. Look up Brazillian slum guns, kyber pass guns and homemade Japanese stuff. These guys don't even have CAD tech.

Perhaps find something new to champion? Perhaps childhood obesity?

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:28

RBC: Nov 23, 2007; IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:30

LeJackal: Apr 5, 2011

Tezzor is the ultimate gun nut.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:33

Cartouche: Jan 4, 2011

LeJackal posted:

Tezzor is the ultimate gun nut.

Gun otaku you mean?

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:44

DeusExMachinima: Sep 2, 2012; This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!

Put this loser on ignore immediately!

gently caress you Tezzor the forums are still healing from the last gun thread getting closed, now is not the time for an OP. We're healing here.

SedanChair posted:

Well if you don't know somebody how would it make sense to shoot them??

:5:

But seriously the shooting yourself with a gun risk isn't evenly distributed. If you're suicidal get em out of the house. If you're not about as many people die from accidental gun deaths as are struck by lightning in total every year (~400-500). It's not worth lifting a finger about.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 18:45

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

LingcodKilla posted:

I'll assume you meant "knives" but it just goes to show that stupid people will use whatever they can get their hands on to do stupid stuff. The technology is so primitive that anyone who actually wants a gun will have no problem getting one. Look up Brazillian slum guns, kyber pass guns and homemade Japanese stuff. These guys don't even have CAD tech.

Perhaps find something new to champion? Perhaps childhood obesity?

Interesting theory. On the other hand: documented reality.

# ? Jan 16, 2016 19:00