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The Saurus posted:Literally the same sentiment as: I'm just describing the reality of the historical development. Proletarian class consciousness was destroyed, more often than not with the help of the "Native" working class of the First World. Native workers are only vulnerable to migrationary pressures in the first place because they gave up their bargaining power, political power, and strike power. If immigration was strictly limited then labor would be offshored to the Third World. Capital is more fluid and powerful than it ever has been in history while Labor is at its weakest.
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Feb 10, 2016 23:52
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The Saurus posted:I also like how you blame the workers themselves for their situation, as though there wasn't a huge effort by the rich and the powerful to weaken them in the past decades, including through the policy of mass immigration and shipping real jobs overseas. Pretty sure the workers weren't yelling for those policies. For every 1 wobbly there were at least 2 running dogs. I'm not the one who is denying agency to the nativists for exacerbating artificial divisions of race and ethnicity. Denying the cultural forces which perpetuate Nativism and pinning all of the blame on the rich is missing the forest for the trees. The Labor Aristocracy had a lot to gain by making a compact with Capital, and now that their labor is made redundant through globalization suddenly they're left holding their own dicks and wondering what happened. Well what happened was the development of Capital beyond the ability of Labor to control and influence, not the influx of relatively powerless immigrants. You can blame these developments on propaganda and other various forms of manipulation all you like, but at the end of the day it's the American Settler who actively chooses to resist class consciousness in favor of reactionary Nationalisms and Racialisms.
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Feb 11, 2016 01:02
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Jewel Repetition posted:Lol "labor aristocracy" The only reason you were even able to make this post is because of the excessive profits extracted from 3rd World laborers, who mined and shipped the minerals and semiconductors your computer was made with. If those laborers were paid at parity with laborers of the First World, then your doodads wouldn't be nearly as affordable and you wouldn't be able to enjoy a much higher standard of living based on Superprofits. That is not like, your fault or anything, but that is the reality of the class relation.
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Feb 11, 2016 04:22
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Jewel Repetition posted:The conditions were probably worse in the assembly than in the mining or refinement. But either way it's not my problem. Because the assembly was done in China.
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Feb 11, 2016 07:41
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Basically the "it's not my problem" mentality is precisely why the Labor Aristocracy is bad, and serves as a buffer against revolutionary change. Guys like Jewel Repetition are a part of the problem, and they have to be able to recognize that if there's any chance for positive change. At least before the Maoist 3rd Worldist hordes conquer Amerikkka and send all our white asses to the labor camps.
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Feb 11, 2016 21:20
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That's not how scabs work.
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Feb 11, 2016 22:24
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The Saurus is an idiot.swampman posted:Yeah, it's same thing with like, "the right to an education." Remember Malala Yousafzai? Her adolescent calls for "the right to an education for Pakistani women" happened exactly as the USA began illegal drone strikes within Pakistani borders. Incidentally, Malala is also a Marxist. Malala Yousafzai posted:First of all I’d like to thank The Struggle and the IMT [International Marxist Tendency] for giving me a chance to speak last year at their Summer Marxist School in Swat and also for introducing me to Marxism and Socialism. I just want to say that in terms of education, as well as other problems in Pakistan, it is high time that we did something to tackle them ourselves. It’s important to take the initiative. We cannot wait around for any one else to come and do it. Why are we waiting for someone else to come and fix things? Why aren’t we doing it ourselves? Which will never get any kind of mention in Western media because it kneecaps her exploitable qualities. Malala is portrayed as such a caricature that Marco Rubio actually said she's the person he'd most like to have a beer with.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:55
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:thats because it was "intelligently designed", the word was coined decades after the fact precisely to conflate the soviet and nazi regimes That was just to connote the godlike qualities of Stalin.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:38
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The Saurus posted:I don't think this thread was ever on-topic. The reality is that you're just evading from being called out as a dumb loving retard, for comparing immigrants to scabs.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:58
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Peel posted:if you'll forgive a trendy question, since we touched on the russian homophobia thing above i'm curious what the marxists here think about the relation of socialist movements to racial/gender/sexual liberation (not using the term 'identity politics' in case someone wants to take it up to refer to particular contemporary currents). like, does anyone hold to the idea that if we can implement socialism these things will disappear of their own accord? are some or all of them mostly seperate struggles? are some or all necessary allied components of a socialist programme and dismissal of them a cause of failure? is the whole question somehow misconceived? I think the imposition of Russian chauvinism in the Soviet Union makes it clear that all forms of chauvinism must be struggled against, even after the revolution, and that economic equality is not a panacea to prejudice and discrimination. I don't think the claim that race, gender, and sex liberation are "allied" components per se, because the destruction of all forms of chauvinism and bigotry are essential to the cultivation of proletarian solidarity. Identity politics are resented insofar as they're co-opted by liberal interests as a fashionable bourgeoise cause celebre to assuage their own guilt. It sinks a lion's share of focus and effort into particular elements of a liberationist struggle, when what's really necessary is to do all things at once. The goal is human liberation, not just the liberation of particular popular segments of society which can garner enough positive attention from moneyed interests. I take exception to the notion that any thread is worse than the Democratic Primary thread.
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Feb 13, 2016 04:05
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The Saurus posted:This really doesn't make any sense at all. They're not any more a benefit to capital if you unionize them, you loving idiot. You may as well be asking why young adults are integral for worker solidarity. There's always more every year, and they're competing for your job!
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Feb 13, 2016 04:25
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The Saurus posted:You can't unionize them if they're illegal, and mass immigration only ever happens when it's of benefit to capital. More supply of labour = lower value for an individual labourer, regardless of anything else you want to say. The IWW was organizing Chinese and Japanese laborers in the early 20th Century, and the UFW organized Filipinos, Mexicans, and other Hispanics after their immigration wave in the 60s. Read a loving book.
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Feb 13, 2016 22:22
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The Saurus posted:A) those groups immigrated mostly legally A) you have no idea what the wages were actually like in those sectors, and you're pulling that claim out of your rear end. B) Chinese and Hispanic laborers were utilized to make up for massive labor shortages. They were brought in to do work that whites weren't willing to do. Before they began hiring Chinese en masse, the railroads were reliant upon Irish immigrants, not natives, and they still had to deal with massive shortages. A labor shortage is not the same thing as full employment. A shortage of labor may be great for an individual, but very little gets done in the aggregate for the economy. The ideal is to achieve full employment and eradicate the Reserve Pool of Labor, not to artificially inflate an individual's bargaining power by suppressing the labor supply. Workers organized in union have far more collective bargaining power than they would individually regardless, under any circumstances.
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Feb 13, 2016 22:48
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:this is all true, and not something i ever denied; what i deny is that this destabilization is an exogenous attempt by external forces to curtail the spread of revolutionary socialism Chavismo is hardly revolutionary, and has a lot more in common with a classically populist Caudillo government than anything genuinely socialist or communist. I think the PSUV deserves a lot of credit for eradicating illiteracy, and spreading the oil wealth throughout society, but they get far too much credit from self-described Marxists imo.
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Feb 13, 2016 22:50
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Enjoy posted:Comparative advantage is good except when leftists do it 
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Feb 13, 2016 23:03
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shut the gently caress up about fishmech
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Feb 13, 2016 23:13
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America's most valuable exports are USD.
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Feb 13, 2016 23:25
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:like, I've been more or less continually enraged at Obama since he ordered the death of anwar al-awlaki but I don't think awlaki was a good guy or feel compelled to defend him. That's ok, because you can defend his 14 year old son instead. 
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Feb 14, 2016 00:06
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Omi-Polari posted:most Venezuelans are fed up and want to live in a normal country. The history of Liberal and Rightist rule in Venezuela is characterized by just as much corruption, if not moreso than the PSUV. They had practically an entire half-century to leverage oil wealth into a healthy economy and enriched themselves instead. There's no guarantee that the opposition will be any less corrupt than the PSUV.
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Feb 14, 2016 00:53
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Omi-Polari posted:I accept that. But what should Venezuelans do? Stick with the status quo? It's a reasonable position to take, but "they're just as corrupt as we are!" is not a very optimistic or inspiring message. I think the PSUV needs to spend some time in the opposition for awhile. I just have this knee-jerk reflex against Liberal optimism, because the typical sentiment in the Venezuela thread is "I don't see how any other leadership could have been worse." It could have been a lot worse. Really I think what the Venezuelan Left needs is a healthy dose of Bolshevist discipline. It's practically impossible to construct socialism when so many elements are skimming off the social produce along the bureaucracy.
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Feb 14, 2016 06:15
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Top City Homo posted:bolshevik discipline is a thin wedge to fascism Hm. No.
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Feb 14, 2016 08:40
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Top City Homo posted:hm yes You're an idiot. Ormi posted:Unfortunately, international development is way more complicated than a just-so story of the winners kicking down the losers. Global capital does not "want" to keep countries at a lower level of development, if anything it desperately seeks the opposite because it enables secure, high-growth investments and the employment of ever-cheaper labor. There's not really any such thing as "Global" capital. All Capital has national characteristics. Allowing a third world country to develop successfully may be a better long-term investment from a purely financial perspective, but not from the perspective of resource extraction and labor exploitation. A country that develops too much no longer has the "comparative advantage" of cheap labor, as workers begin to agitate for better wages and benefits. Developed nations also drive up the demand for, and price of, vital resources which are needed to drive continued development and consumption in the First World. The political agenda is therefore to suppress Third World development, and only allow it as far as to make its resources exploitable without allowing Capital to be realized in the exploitated country itself. That's why Third World development is almost always contingent on First World capital - government indebtedness makes them permanent thralls to First World interests, and because First Worlders own all of the capital recently developed the profits float up into the Global North. The First World lifestyle is unsustainable without imperialism. You don't even need to be a Marxist in order to understand these international relations. Ha Joon Chang built the case for it in Kicking Away the Ladder. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 23:23
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Top City Homo posted:
I'm not a big Stalin fan or anything, but claiming that "Stalinism" was Slavic Fascism is some Grade A reductionist bullshit. It's literally what my Libertarian history professor tried to sell us at a satellite college.
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Feb 14, 2016 23:59
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Nobody ever said a communist can't be retarded.
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Feb 17, 2016 06:34
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The best way to convert a Fascist is with 9x17mm.
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Feb 18, 2016 02:55
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Top City Homo posted:*throws "Mass Psychology of Fascism" in your fat face* quote:Suppression of the natural sexuality in the child, particularly of its genital sexuality, makes the child apprehensive, shy, obedient, afraid of authority, good and adjusted in the authoritarian sense; it paralyzes the rebellious forces because any rebellion is laden with anxiety; it produces, by inhibiting sexual curiosity and sexual thinking in the child, a general inhibition of thinking and of critical faculties. In brief, the goal of sexual suppression is that of producing an individual who is adjusted to the authoritarian order and who will submit to it in spite of all misery and degradation. At first the child has to submit to the structure of the authoritarian miniature state, the family; this makes it capable of later subordination to the general authoritarian system. The formation of the authoritarian structure takes place through the anchoring of sexual inhibition and anxiety. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKQ3ZNQ_O8&t=17s
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Feb 18, 2016 17:46
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Top City Homo posted:Theodore Adorno came to similar conclusions but let's just dismiss writings by one of the more important psychologists in the 20th century because of an out of context thoughtcrime about sexual social mores. Psychoanalysis is indeed historically important, but as a school of psychology it's a big wet hippo shart.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:40
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Limonov is a drat good writer, and Russia would be a better place if he was in charge, imo.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:13
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Flocons de Jambon posted:It's a little known fact that the meaning behind the fascist salute is "I've had it up to HERE with the diffusion of energy, futility and failure of trying to organize an international workers struggle!" Actually it means "you must be at least THIS TALL to get on Mr. Hitler's Wild Ride!"
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Feb 19, 2016 10:43
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Feb 20, 2016 11:10
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The Saurus posted:I think it's time we disposed of all of the dumb labels and academic polemics and just got together and smashed the gently caress out of the state and the ruling class tbqh JESUS loving CHRIST WHY HASN"T ANYBODY THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE!? Somebody make this man the leader of the Vanguard!!!
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Feb 20, 2016 17:22
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who cares
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Feb 20, 2016 18:35
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olin posted:People who don't have their head up their cunts. You should've been partially birth aborted out yer mother's oval office m8 
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Feb 20, 2016 18:39
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hxOGYCo6VA
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Feb 21, 2016 09:53
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Top City Homo posted:Bernie has done more for bringing a positive connotation for socialism, with people taking the time to study and read about it and discover how closely it aligns with US history into the mainstream in the last year than any one of these podunk stalinist splinter cults have in 100 Top City Homo posted:you aren't communists Top City Homo posted:wonderful another stalin worshipping dipshit Settle down, Buttmunch.
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Feb 21, 2016 20:25
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RIP in peace, Kwantung Army
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Feb 21, 2016 22:39
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American Capital doesn't need Fascism to save itself, because like filially pious Chinese peasants before class consciousness, American proles will beseech Emperor Trump to restore the Mandate of Heaven.
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Feb 22, 2016 06:55
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Homework Explainer posted:we're probably seeing a different iteration of fascism akin to democratic socialism's evil doppelganger, since if trump wins he won't have to organize paramilitaries to seize power One of the defining elements of fascism is its criminality, since fascists act from a position of pure power without regard to the law. If Trump acts legally, then that's just good old fashioned reactionary authoritarianism. I've seen some idiotic Trumpenproles go so far as to compare Trump to Cincinnatus, but that might actually be what happens in a narrative sense.
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Feb 22, 2016 07:37
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HorseLord posted:lets see what third worldists are doing these days This butterball says "suck my dick" like his mom could hear it from the living room.
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Feb 22, 2016 16:58
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HorseLord posted:i don't understand why the CPUSA doesnt just dissolve itself Because they're making money.
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Feb 22, 2016 18:05
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