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OhYeah posted:European countries don't have distinct art, languages, rituals and ceremonies (you mean "religion"), and ethics? A consistent message that brings unity. It is not found anywhere in the west, precisely because of said 'cultural diversity.'
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Apr 11, 2016 17:05
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Xoidanor posted:Could we get that argument in English instead of meaningless platitudes? Not really. OhYeah is posting.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:09
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Extreme0 posted:I'm going to laugh if this just ends up being a wet fart because Catalonia Government didn't prepare to actually fight back and expected Spain to back down to have talks. Given none of them signed their names on that declaration, this honestly does seem very likely.
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Oct 27, 2017 17:59
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This debate about how 'morally right' separatism is really does boil down to the facts on the ground, as it were, of the people trying to split themselves off. Back in the start of the 1990s, the facts on the ground in Yugoslavia were that it had just gone through an absolute mess when it came to the economy and Serbia expected every other nation to foot its bills that Tito had accrued over decades of putting the whole country in massive debt that finally got called in. A lot of people bring up the 'ethnic tensions' of the past in the region as the fuel for the fire, and they wouldn't be wrong, but there's a good goddamn reason as to why my country (Slovenia) was the first to secede - because of that economic spark that set the fuel ablaze. Because otherwise the local bigshots would've been bled dry under the same bullshit pretensions of communist 'Brotherhood and Unity'. That's the chief reason, from the way I see it, as to why we seceded and most certainly not due to 'popular will' or our paper-thin culture, of which the only things truly unique and our own are our writing, poetry, some horses and wines, that it really is ridiculous how well that part got engineered and cheated into the 'decisive' referendum results back then by said bigshots, that to this day continue to manipulate our politics. And yet despite these personal feelings of mine on the subject of our 'national will', it was still done brilliantly and was, without a doubt, a better alternative to us remaining as a part of Yugoslavia. I don't know if Bosnia can say the same, due to how horrible things went there, while Croatia certainly also does, even though they paid a lot of the price too. How this translates to Catalonia? I think that only if you've lived in that region for the past decade or more do I feel you can have a truly informed opinion on whether or not this separatist movement is a good thing (regardless of it being done very poorly in terms of preparation, from what I can see). And even if you do live in that region, very few can bring themselves to look past nationalist bullshit to objectively consider the alternative as a resident of that region - is Catalonia staying under Spain truly going to be a worse thing in the long run for them, rather that they split off? In terms of Scotland, from talking to some folks, it honestly does sound like a good thing (though obviously it sounds like it'll take awhile now) - its residents very much so seem to want to remain in the EU, UK is being an absolute retard about that right now and straight up lied to them during their last referendum, so it is not inconceivable that they could work something out if the alternative to that is England bleeding them dry economically to fix their own lovely problems that Scots had nothing to do with (same as with my country in the 90s). I can't tell, though, whether Catalonia faces that same kind of situation or not. If it does, then I'd be pro-separatist to be sure (though in an actually competent way and not quite what's going on right now), but I honestly can't tell. Like I said, no one can unless they've lived there and base their decision on what a Catalonian had to actually face in their day to day life.
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Oct 28, 2017 23:49
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cloudchamber posted:What lie you're referring to I don't know exactly but Scotland hasn't been treated badly by the English. They certainly haven't been bled dry economically. Through the Barnett formula Scotland gets allocated a greater amount of public spending per head than England itself receives. Namely the lie, when during their previous indy referendum the votes for Scotland to stay in was very heavily based on the whole: "We don't want to leave the common market of the EU by leaving the UK, do we?" and then a few years laters the UK does a full 180 on that, which they frequently reminded Scotland of during the indy ref, and goes "gently caress IT, you're not our dad EU we're leaving!" with the Brexit stupidity. But if it's not doing that badly, then maybe it isn't worth it. Like I said, one has to live there and experience the day-to-day life of those it affects the most to be able to decide if it is. Over here, tho, the old Yugoslavian dinar currency was literally not worth poo poo at the end of the 80s and that was the flint that sparked the beginning of secession. The UK isn't quite there yet now, I suppose (I guess the internet makes people think only extreme thoughts, or I just typed it out poorly there). If it came to it, though, and places like Northern Ireland and Scotland footed the bill then yea...history would likely repeat itself in this regard and I wouldn't blame it one bit. Anyway...from what I'm reading ITT Catalonia is deffo not there yet. Which, combined with how poorly this whole declaration of independence was staged makes me think that, fascist remnants of Franco's Spain aside, it isn't worth it. But who knows...maybe there are a lot of stories of Catalonians being discriminated to the point they can't live proper lives or who the gently caress knows underneath all this talk. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 01:49
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Pissflaps posted:Can you point out the ‘lie’ here? UK: "Stay with us, Scotland, if you want to stay in EU." Scotland: "K." UK few years later: "We're leaving EU!"
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Oct 29, 2017 10:29
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Pissflaps posted:That’s not a lie. etc etc etc straying away from the simple loving point I was trying to make, because you have to somehow win the argument... They said they'd do something (stay in the EU market) by remaining, then UK did something utterly contrary to that (Brexit) that ejected them out of it. That's not a lie? Cripes I don't feel like arguing semantics on top of every other drat thing ITT...
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Oct 29, 2017 14:25
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Well, it is perfidious Albion we're talking about.
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Oct 29, 2017 15:00
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Fun for a few minutes: See how far you can drive the Brexit bus without crashing! Moral of the game, when poo poo's looking bad just gun it full throttle and do a somersault midair to keep truckin'.
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Nov 30, 2017 16:08
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Martin Schulz of all people proposes a new EU Constitutional Treaty, proposing to pass it through the most surefire way of blowing up the EU that anyone could think of: P sure he also thinks Trump declaring Jerusalem to be Israel's capital was a good long-term political move lol.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:44
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fishmech activates thread is confused/amused it is super effective Anyway, the thing that's always struck me about the currently existing federal parts of the EU is that they were all borne primarily out of convenience. Every country that submitted itself to that central authority in some way or fashion has done so for their own national interest reasons of convenience (mostly economic ones). It is drastically different than something like the federal parts of the USA that are far moreso based on idealism/belief (often schizophrenic as all hell, since the disconnect between what the USA believes it is and what it has actually always been and is also becoming more and more as of late, is rather drastic), but it's also a p good reason as to why the USA federal systems are moreso effective (even if quite dysfunctional) - because of that belief. With Europe...I don't think there really is much belief in the project other than a shitload of convenience. Hence we do get mostly economic unity, but far shakier or even nonexistent political/ideological unity that breaks apart at the seams whenever tested by such a political/humanitarian crisis, like that of the refugees 2-3 years back for example. So yea...p much the only way for it to continue on that path would have to be some kind of existential threat, most likely, that'd make everyone in Europe go: "Woah...this demands that we all get together." as opposed to turn on each other like a bunch of rabid dogs, or indulge in grandiosely deluded insanity, like the UK is right now. So I can't blame Catalans for wanting their own nation-state before any kind of federal europe happens (if it ever does), since that'd relegate all of them to just another number as opposed to an actual state of the union. And for any population of several million, that could be a rough thing to swallow, especially so if you're covered under the legacy of Spain, whose fascist influence went well past WW2. It's also why I'm ultimately glad Yugoslavia and its communist influence at least formally dissolved in the 90s, regardless of how painful that was. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Dec 12, 2017 |
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Dec 12, 2017 13:36
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A Buttery Pastry posted:A nation-state stops existing when people no longer believe in the nation, is fischmech's point I believe. And it's an asinine point. I mean, sure - belief is what's needed to set plans into motion for just about anything in this world, nations included, but believing in something and actually pulling it off is another thing. In reality they are born and cease to be when there is recognizable time and space during which they exist and stop existing. Otherwise, I may as well be the president of CrazyLoon land, population: 1.
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Dec 12, 2017 17:11
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Truga posted:I'm in Slovenia, as a nation we're several times more in debt than the entirety of Yugoslavia combined was when we left it. And we're better off than most ex-yu. Tell me, how is this even possible, if a credit card is supposed to run out? Same reason, I think, as to why things like the South Seas Bubble from the start of the 18th century continued to this day to be paid off piecemeal by British taxpayers, likely will for another century or so and never gets called in full, while the ones who took part in it/came up with it were allowed to keep their titles and estates, even though that poo poo was demonstrably one of the biggest con artist lies to have ever existed on this planet and which could've brought the whole empire to its knees had justice been done. So long as you pretend to be an 'economically viable' place for investors, you can keep playing the farse of capitalism for as long as you like. Tako to gre.
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Dec 22, 2017 17:06
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Doctor Malaver posted:Except that Yugoslavia wasn't a case of brutal austerity leading to nationalist independence movements? It was moreso a case of accumulated national debt over almost half a century and inflation going through the goddamned roof (funny joke from the times: "They said money would have no value in communism - we're not far off from it!"), coupled with Tito croaking without a workable plan for who comes after in what was still, ostensibly, his dictatorship rule leading to revival of said ethnic tensions. So yea...I guess the point is, no one single thing is usually responsible to cases of bloodshed nowadays, but rather a combo of lovely factors. And a merry christmas to you all too! CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Dec 25, 2017 |
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Dec 25, 2017 16:23
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blowfish posted:If you're going to fracture the country, might as well go for maximum Balkanisation to show how absurd the whole thing is. Anything that gets us closer to the ideal end state (heh) of having one state per person. The thing about this term, as much as it gets thrown around, though is, that in the case of the Balkans there actually was some historical culture that warranted the divisions that happened. Even with my country, that has some really rickety claims towards being an actual nation, the local language does, in fact, stretch back for half a millennia at least and the construct of Yugoslavia that popped up at the start of the 20th century was primarily a political one, as opposed to a cultural one. So it falling apart is not terribly surprising, with the hindsight of history. I suppose the valid claim is, really - what is the historical and cultural context in which you frame the movement to seperate from the overarching country? In the case of Catalonia, yea I can see it since Iberian wedding and whatevs was the thing that merged what was actually there before and things kinda didn't go exactly rosy after that, but every million or two people getting cajoled into pushing for their own state purely on the basis of numbers and loosely shared ideology alone is rather absurd, because in that case I invite the muslims of Anglistan, Frankistan and Germanistan to rise up and lay rightful claim to european soil with their own nations, inshallah. 
CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 22:01
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| # ¿ May 14, 2024 05:33 |
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Darth Walrus posted:Oh, we’re talking about crises of democracy? This speech transcript from Charles Stross is probably relevant. Not entirely relevant (the most relevant is this part https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmIgJ64z6Y4&t=2124s ) but still a terrific 1-hour listen so thanks! CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 14:18
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