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So notes on last years achievements/current value: - I completed all my goals, met all deadlines, got some pretty stellar reviews... this was discussed with the dept head a couple of weeks ago when I complained. Part of my issue here is that I have faced another year of "on target" ratings from the supervisor, which even if you compound all of those over the last few years means I should have tracked a promotion by now. - It is a DoD contractor, and they just paid who knows how many tens of thousands to get me a security clearance and sunk almost a year of time into getting me into the classified areas to be productive to the program. Would it be unreasonable to bring up the fact that a cleared person would be pretty hard to replace if I left?
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Mar 11, 2022 19:52
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bamhand posted:A good manager and company will have goals set to get as many people qualified and promoted as possible. Since that is for the benefit of everyone. A lot of companies and managers aren't very good though. If you aren't setting concrete goals and steps to take in order to get promoted then your manager or company is doing something wrong. That was a VERY large part of why I left my last group to begin with. The previous manager sucked and displayed a very obvious degree of favoritism for three or four people in a team of ten, and there was absolutely no path forward there. It seems like this trend is going to continue, as my new manager did not provide any clear path once I brought up my complaints, aside from incredibly broad "it's all about getting projects with visibility" rhetoric. Just to reiterate what I said in my initial post, I am well aware this company sucks, and I am actively trying to leave, but that process is just proving more difficult than originally anticipated... so if it is at all likely that I can get them to at least meet me in the middle on some pay stuff before I leave, I don't see why I shouldn't at least try.
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Mar 11, 2022 20:17
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Wait, wait -- were your previous unsuccessful interviews before or after getting the security clearance? And were you interviewing at other DoD contractors, or at generic tech companies? Because if you're interviewing at other DoD contractors, they should presumably be using a lot of the same outdated stacks, and having your clearance already should be a huge boost. If you're interviewing at generic tech companies, then those wouldn't help quite as much. I have had a multitude of interviews both before and after getting my clearance (I already had a different classification level prior to getting the one I have now), but I am also not looking at other DoD contractors because it's a pretty poo poo industry overall. I did look at one other one, but they thought my C++ experience was fairly outdated even by their standards. EDIT: I think overall the impression I am getting is that it probably wouldn't be worthwhile to mention again (since I just had the EOY review a couple of weeks ago and the subsequent discussion with the dept head at that time). I think we can move this thread on from my specific issues and I'll just keep doing what I already knew I needed to do: try to land a new job. Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Mar 11, 2022 |
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Mar 11, 2022 21:00
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After many long months of trying, I finally landed an offer at a new company... only downside is that they have not told me how much they are offering. It is a big tech company that we all know, so their salary data is readily available via levels.fyi (sort of... data for my region is somewhat sparse), but despite saying I was being offered, the recruiter left the onus firmly on me to give my expected TC value first before moving on from here. What would the best advice be moving forward from here? I don't want to toss out a number way off base and get a "oh, I guess our expectations aren't aligned, sorry, never mind," but I am also so tired of being shafted on salary by employers... EDIT: As leverage, I do have a "competing" offer pending (infinitely shittier, pays less, not big tech, but competing offer nonetheless) and my employer would almost definitely try to match if I pulled this card on them.
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Apr 21, 2022 23:42
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Corla Plankun posted:I have never heard of "an offer" that didn't contain the explanation of benefits/compensation. Is it possible you are in an earlier stage than you think you are? It doesn't sound like you have an offer. Oh no, they very clearly explained all the benefits, what level they would be bringing me in at, the hiring manger, team, etc. The recruiters said I was being offered, the title of the meeting was "offer call." It is an offer, they just don't want to say the first number.
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Apr 21, 2022 23:47
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Guinness posted:That sounds out of order. In my experience, the "offer call" is when they send you the PDF of the complete initial offer package and go over it with you verbally. It can't be an offer without numbers. I mean, I agree, but yet here we are... At every step of the way, the recruiter kept mentioning that when I receive my official written offer in two to three days or whatever, all the benefit/perk info he was describing will be there, blah blah blah... I am thinking perhaps they are just trying to get an initial number out of me to tailor their offer toward? My thought now is that he intentionally kept it vague to make it sound like they wouldn't submit any paperwork to me until they get an initial number, but I am going to see something in a few days either way? They're obviously just trying to play a high pressure game, imo... standard big business bullshit.
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Apr 22, 2022 00:16
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leper khan posted:"Yeah that sounds great. Send me the paperwork and I'll review it by EoW" Would it be out of line to do either one or multiple of the following: 1. When I meet with the hiring manager again to discuss day-to-day work-life stuff, mention that I am thrilled but concerned because I still haven't actually seen an official offer (perhaps he can nudge something along?) 2. Reply to the recruiter nowish and say that after carefully considering the numbers, I am comfortable leaving the offer in their hands, as I trust that the offer will be competitive (then negotiate from there) 3. Just wait the 2-3 days that they implied my offical offer would take without saying anything or providing a number, and ask where the offer is when that deadline runs up and hope that they finally just give me something with a starting point
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Apr 22, 2022 00:46
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It's an internal one, as far as I know. I don't think they are even contracted... pretty sure a direct employee. I can't say for sure, but I think this company in particular is just a bit worse about this stuff. From what I understand, while they generally pay quite decently and have great benefits, they are still not quite on par with most of the bigger FAANG companies.
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Apr 22, 2022 01:12
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:whats wrong with leper kahn's very sensible advice, why are you doin this stuff rather than the simple and easy thing Nothing, tbh, I'm just not sure how to broach the subject without essentially coming across like my proposed option 2 now that this is a couple of hours removed from the phone call. EDIT: Especially since I am pretty sure in the moment I said something to the effect of "I'll look at numbers and try to come up with something." (doing my best to deflect from giving a value then and there) "Thanks again for running through the benefits info with me today, I look forward to the upcoming discussion with the manager and an official offer from your team for me to review?" Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 01:18
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Arquinsiel posted:Literally do nothing until they get back to you. I can do that. Considering this whole situation feels shady and shaky, at what point would it be advisable to work my current company for a counter offer? I’ve always erred on the side of “once offer is in hand and officially accepted,” but now I’m unsure if/when that will happen with the current offer.
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Apr 22, 2022 03:21
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Eric the Mauve posted:Better plan, don't try to get a counter offer from your current employer at all, unless you like (or at least are very well prepared for) the prospect of being unemployed in six months. I’m honestly not worried about that at all with the current employer because attrition is close to 30% right now. They aren’t firing anyone for a long time. That being said I also don’t want to stay there… but an insurance policy would be nice if big tech is just jerking me around. EDIT: It’s also extremely common in my current industry to play the “I dare you to let me leave” game for promotions and raises. Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Apr 22, 2022 |
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Apr 22, 2022 04:46
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Double post due to a slight development. There are two recruiters involved in this process: the one who sourced me and helped prepare me for the interview, then the one who only seems to exist to produce anxiety in me. The sourcing/prep one reached out to me this morning to clarify an area of confusion that we ran into the day after being informed I was getting an offer. Would it be a bad idea to say anything to this recruiter along the lines of “I’m excited but confused because I still haven’t seen any numbers, is this actually an offer?” Or whatever? It’s amazing how you can objectively and easily tell people what to do through these scenarios, but as soon as it’s you, suddenly everything is second guessed and no choice feels correct.
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Apr 22, 2022 17:23
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Lockback posted:I think this isn't realistic advice, especially anymore in the current market. I just think 90% of the time a counter offer is going to be less than what another company will offer, will take longer than advertised, and it will usually stick you in the back of the line giving you more headwind the next time you need an adjustment. But I've never seen anyone let go simply for getting a counter offer, that seems like a waste of resources. This was pretty much my thinking. Plenty of people here do it year in year out with no repercussion, and I already got an adjustment in December and then a weak raise on top of it with my yearly review, so I think at this point I’m already last in line for an adjustment. Overall I agree that it is a fruitless exercise and not a viable long term plan, but honestly I’d rather squeeze them for a bit of money while I “kind of” have leverage. If my current offer falls through, at least I walk away with more money from someone.
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Apr 22, 2022 19:30
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Hadlock posted:I usually get a verbal offer with number, then negotiate on that, then they send me the DocuSign with the numbers we agreed on. This is what I’m used to as well and what is driving the anxiety of the situation for me. The recruiter said “the paperwork you’ll get in a few days,” but I’m pretty sure he was assuming I would give him a number then and there and that he won’t start any paperwork until getting a number. So basically, I’m fully expecting that midway next week I’m going to have to ping him asking where the paperwork is and he’ll say “you never gave a number” and put us right back at square one.
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Apr 23, 2022 17:31
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Gin_Rummy posted:This is what I’m used to as well and what is driving the anxiety of the situation for me. The recruiter said “the paperwork you’ll get in a few days,” but I’m pretty sure he was assuming I would give him a number then and there and that he won’t start any paperwork until getting a number. Alright thread, I’m at about three days out from my discussion with the recruiter and have yet to hear a peep. What is the best way to proceed from here? Continue waiting, or ask if I can still expect the paperwork soon (even though I am pretty sure he isn’t doing any paperwork yet)? If/when he says “I still need a number” what do I do then? Say something along the lines of “I’m more than happy to discuss any initial numbers your company is currently thinking, but otherwise I’ll have to wait for the official paperwork to review all the information compiled together?” There is also supposed to be one final call with the hiring manager to discuss team dependent work arrangements, such as on call vs not on call, on-site vs remote, etc. I wouldn’t mind saying something along the lines of “I kind of need to hop on that call first and know all these details before I name a number” if that makes sense to do here. Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 13:51
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Hadlock posted:Just tell him you don't want to give a number so early because it hurts you in salary negotiations, so use whatever. You both know why you're not giving a number, and being straight about it doesn't hurt your position The ol’ Michael Scott technique. “I’m declining to say the first number.” Honestly, why beat around the bush about it, right?
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Apr 26, 2022 15:44
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Gin_Rummy posted:Alright thread, I’m at about three days out from my discussion with the recruiter and have yet to hear a peep. What is the best way to proceed from here? Continue waiting, or ask if I can still expect the paperwork soon (even though I am pretty sure he isn’t doing any paperwork yet)? If/when he says “I still need a number” what do I do then? Say something along the lines of “I’m more than happy to discuss any initial numbers your company is currently thinking, but otherwise I’ll have to wait for the official paperwork to review all the information compiled together?” The recruiter reached out today to schedule that hiring manager follow up, but there was still no mention of the offer or any actual numbers. Should I hold the course and just not worry about it until/after the follow up, or should I consider pinging the recruiter again separately with a “hey can I still expect the official papers today” note? I’m fully expecting the answer is “hold the line” but Jesus I just want this guy to give me an idea of what I would be looking at already…
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Apr 26, 2022 18:15
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oopsie rock posted:Even if they've used the word "offer" with you, it sounds like they're still going to be hammering out the details of the job so it's possible that salary is still dependent on the structure of the job (onsite/remote, on-call, etc.). This is partially true. It’s a very, very large organization and all those policies are just team dependent, so the recruiter sets up these calls for the hiring manager to define. It’s not that these details aren’t already defined for the role, it’s just that when you interview you aren’t interviewing for one specific role or team… so these are all questions and details they expect people to want answers on once they receive an offer from a team. That being said, I agree. Any response I have for “do you have a number yet” will certainly include something that basically says “this is all dependent on what the manager’s work expectations are.”
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Apr 26, 2022 18:56
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Lockback posted:The longer you hold off the stronger your bargaining position is. Unless you think there's some reason they will be way under market its in your best interest to hold off negotiating as long as you can. Well isn’t this the point where I should be negotiating though? Yes, my final asking price will depend on if the hiring manager says I can work from home or not, but why not push for the initial offer point so that we can at least get the ball rolling on negotiations? On that same note, we have passed the “2-3 days from now” deadline and no sign of offer paperwork, so I am thinking that I definitely need to prod at them to ensure they know the ball is in their court, whether it be now or after the follow up with the hiring manager.
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Apr 27, 2022 15:32
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m0therfux0r posted:It doesn't sound like Gin_Rummy is in that situation and should just keep rolling without giving a number. Well that’s just what I’m trying to figure out. Since the paperwork offer hasn’t come through yet, that tells me the 2-3 day timeline was contingent on me giving a number then and there, so I expect they view the ball as being in my court, not theirs. “No need to do anything until he gives a number” or whatever. I’m wondering if it makes sense to try and steer the narrative and play dumb a bit by grasping onto that 2-3 day timeline: “hey you made repeated mentions to official offer coming in 2-3 days, is that still on track?” Or if it’s better to hold the line and talk to the hiring manager again and then push for some hard numbers? Obviously my preference is to push for numbers sooner, and I don’t want to drag this out too long (already over a week since they said they want to offer)… but if it makes the most sense to keep waiting, then keep waiting it shall be.
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Apr 27, 2022 19:55
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It’s an internal recruiter. This is just the weird way bigger tech companies do things. They interview you, hire you, then figure out exactly where to put you. I’ve actually already interviewed with my hiring manager and that is what landed me the offer, the follow up is purely team matching and my chance to make sure it’s the right work environment for me. Theoretically, I probably could have received and accepted my official offer before having this follow up call if I was extremely dumb and impatient.
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Apr 27, 2022 20:35
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Asproigerosis posted:Better question, I'm doing the initial hr phone interview tomorrow. Can I tell them hey im gonna be straight to the point I've already got multiple offers in hand so if you want a shot at me you gotta be quick on the trigger here my dudes. Yes, be up front about it. Best case, they accelerate their timeline and speed you through the process, worst case they say they can’t move any faster and you miss out on a job that wouldn’t have worked out anyways.
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Apr 27, 2022 23:57
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Gin_Rummy posted:It’s an internal recruiter. This is just the weird way bigger tech companies do things. They interview you, hire you, then figure out exactly where to put you. I’ve actually already interviewed with my hiring manager and that is what landed me the offer, the follow up is purely team matching and my chance to make sure it’s the right work environment for me. Theoretically, I probably could have received and accepted my official offer before having this follow up call if I was extremely dumb and impatient. So, re: all this bullshit I spoke with the hiring manager again last week, he specified certain parts of the day-to-day job and then concluded by saying he was going to have the recruiter send the paperwork. That was like mid-last week and I still haven’t heard/seen anything else from the recruiter. We are at about two weeks from “we would like to offer you” and, while I know the ins and outs of their benefits, I still do not have any idea on compensation… Am I at a point where I need to ping that recruiter and ask what’s going on? I expect he is still “waiting for a number,” but I figured when the HM said he was going to get him to push the paperwork that it meant I would hear from him again to talk numbers.
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May 2, 2022 14:32
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Eric the Mauve posted:Tbh it sounds like you missed your chance to get some specific information from the HM (such as: "By 'paperwork' do you mean 'offer'? Where exactly are we in this process?", or: "Exactly what is the timetable I should expect to hear from your lazy rear end in a top hat recruiter?"). Now you're back to being stuck at the whims of the lazy rear end in a top hat recruiter (but I repeat myself), who regards you as already on the hook and can be safely ignored in favor of his other fishing lines until you break down and name a number so he can maximize his finder's fee at your expense. Am I ever at risk of losing out on the chance because we both played silent chicken for too long? I figured it wouldn’t hurt to just shoot a “hey is the offer in process?” message. If he eventually breaks down and messages me first, I can’t imagine it would be anything other than “hey have you arrived at a number yet?” Basically, it feels to me like all roads lead to “do you have a number yet?” and maybe it’s better to just force the issue.
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May 2, 2022 17:12
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Lockback posted:At some point if they are insistent that the next step is you naming a number, you gotta decide if you are going to do that or walk away or else they'll walk away for you. It might be worth doing some research around what a higher-end number would be. Numbers are pretty readily available for this kind of stuff in my field, so I know almost exactly what to aim for. But even then, the advice thus far has been overwhelmingly “don’t give a number” so I held the line. I think I am comfortable giving a high number to work off of if they absolutely force it, but I definitely prefer to negotiate from their starting point.
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May 2, 2022 17:43
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loving FINALLY got my specific details, so it’s time to negotiate. The salary looks okay, about 15.5% more than what I make now, though some of the salary data online implies it could be as much of a 25% raise if I try to bargain (also added commuting costs may mostly negate that projected raise). Also got a fairly generous sign on bonus offer, though it is also a tad bit lower than what levels.fyi implies as standard for the role. The stock award… I don’t totally understand, tbh, but it seems like a decent chunk of stock for whatever that is worth. What’s the best play from here? I had another objectively shittier offer I turned down last week, but my current job would almost certainly try to counter if I want leverage to try to negotiate with. Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 20:56 on May 3, 2022 |
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May 3, 2022 20:45
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skipdogg posted:What's unclear about the stock award? They just gave a value and didn’t really specify over how many years it vests and whatnot. I’m just not sure how that value breaks down in my yearly total comp. Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 21:16 on May 3, 2022 |
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May 3, 2022 21:11
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you don't need leverage, you just need to state what you want Only asking because I know explicit choice of wording can be important in these situations, but should I basically say what you outlined verbatim, or would it be wise at all to fluff it up a bit with some niceties? “Thanks for the offer, I’m excited to deliver some high quality bearfucking, though the compensation does seem a tad lower than I would have expected. Is there any chance we can achieve something like $X base salary, $Y signing bonus? I’d be willing to sign an offer for that amount immediately and officially initiate the process of joining the team!”
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May 5, 2022 14:57
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And the number I ask for should be $X + 15-20%, in anticipation of them splitting the difference, right?
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May 5, 2022 16:01
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Dik Hz posted:Depends on what market is. If they come in above market, you’ll look naive asking for 20% more. Based on most available data points for this position, the total comp they’re offering me is about $20k less than what is average. 15-20% would be about 40k more, but if they meet me in the middle like I would expect, then I am right where I expect the offer to be. Since most of the compensation is in RSUs, I’m kind of thinking they would not balk at that ask? qhat posted:Simply say “honestly I expected more. This is my current negotiating position: …”. They will not laugh you off the phone. Write a script and read off it. No seriously, write it out on paper and literally read from it while on the phone. Sales learned this trick a long time ago, makes saying the right thing at the right time so much easier. Is it always best to do this stuff over the phone? I feel like if I try to get this guy on a call he is just going to delay/push back to their arbitrary deadline, whereas if I just say outright in an email what I’m after he has the terms right away.
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May 5, 2022 17:14
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Corla Plankun posted:I strongly recommend that you just spend less time working and find fulfilling things to do in your abundance of work-free time. No job is going to give you fulfillment for long. Its exploitation all the way down. This. As soon as WFH is gone, you're going to regret ever giving it up.
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May 13, 2022 01:07
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Mantle posted:I've heard rumblings that asking for $100/hr is gonna be too much but I kind of feel like if I'm gonna be doing this after a whole regular day of work I want to be paid overtime rates at least. It also doesn't seem totally unreasonable in this market. Not to say you shouldn’t shoot your shot and aim for $100/hr, but at that rate why wouldn’t they just go for someone else who contracts as their day job/someone who isn’t doing this on the side? If I was the one selecting a contractor, “I want over time rates” and “I’m doing this on top of my regular job” just make me think you won’t be able to dedicate the correct amount of time and detail to the job. Take my words with a grain of salt though, as I do not hire contractors, nor have I ever done contract work.
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May 13, 2022 13:11
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Just thanking you all and updating the thread after my long as gently caress negotiation process with "Big Tech Company XYZ." Thanks to everyone for not letting me balk and continuously drilling it into my head: "don't say the first number, wait them out." I was able to talk them up to an extra $20k total compensation per year, which put me right in line with the average for this position based on the salary data points I am able to see.
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May 21, 2022 00:50
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Magnetic North posted:The two differences are: this recruiter I am dealing with is internal as opposed to external, and this company primarily does contracts for the US Government so I don't know if this means I can ask for more or less. Weighing in as someone who has worked software development at defense contractors: you can absolutely ask for more, don’t treat this negotiation any differently. Defense (like everyone else) is facing absurd attrition rates right now, and they are even more desperate for people because real software devs don’t want to go work in a windowless room without personal electronics when other places will allow them to work from home. That being said, if this place is primarily a defense contractor and that is the kind of work they’re recruiting you for… I’d recommend you either ask for a poo poo ton or just walk the other way now. Development in defense is mired with hilariously outdated development tools and dinosaurs who refuse to learn anything newer than their precious Ada. EDIT: As a quick side note, is this for one of the big defense contractors, or just a place that happens to also do government contracts? (I realize I made an assumption that government contracts meant defense when that may not necessarily be the case) If it’s one of the big DoD firms, I only know of one with “unlimited PTO” and it isn’t true unlimited PTO. It’s actually four weeks of unrestricted use (take time off whenever/however you want), and then if you need any more time beyond that, it is unlimited but must be approved by the manager. I think recruiters just tell people it’s “unlimited” to make them sound like hot poo poo. Gin_Rummy fucked around with this message at 14:48 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 14:33
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