The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR? - The Something Awful Forums

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

swenblack posted:

I disagree. If someone brings it up, asking for proof is acceptable. And you shouldn't trust me. If you interview with me, you should ask for everything in writing. I won't be offended if you do.

From my perspective, I need justification to get additional budget for the hire approved. An offer letter from a competitor for a person who we wanted to hire would be the perfect justification that our initial budget for the hire was too low. I've done this before, and it's not a big deal.

Scenario 1:
Potential hire: "I have a competing offer that I'm prepared to accept."
Me: "Great! Can we match it? I'll need a copy of the offer to take to my leadership so we can beat it."
Potential hire: "Sure, here's the e-mail!"
Me: "I can't make any promises, but I'll go to bat for you!"

Scenario 2:
Potential hire: "I have a competing offer that I'm prepared to accept."
Me: "Great! Can we match it? I'll need a copy of the offer to take to my leadership so we can beat it."
Potential hire: "No."
Me: "Um, ok. We'll be in touch."

This seems like a reasonable thing to me.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2016 01:41

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 10:55

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

This is a good write-up regarding raises from the management perspective: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/4bds4v/negotiating_a_promotionraise_from_the_lens_of_a/

I think one really good point in here is about just chasing the cash. I'm in a position where I came in one level above where maybe I should have after negotiating my position and salary. Still I feel like I'm outperforming my peers that are at the same level as me and probably even some another level up. I know I could get a parallel position for about 5-10k more and that was basically my plan around the year mark (if they didn't match). Now I'm reevaluating that thought and will maybe be willing to hold out for a more senior title along with the extra $$.

Related question. Let's say there's 5 levels. Based on my previous experience it could have been argued that I come in at level 1. I made my case for coming in at level 2 and it worked. While I didn't come in at the absolute floor of the salary for level 2, I'm pretty close to it. I feel like I'm performing at the top of level 2 or bottom of level 3 which is about a 20k-30k difference in salary. I'm half way through my first year now, what should I be doing? Should I start discussing this now? Try to get an unscheduled raise? Try to get a large bump come year end? Take a lateral title but vertical salary position elsewhere after a year? I'm feeling like I've already used a bunch of "goodwill" right in the beginning. The person that would have to go to bat for me made it clear that he went to bat for me in the beginning to place me where I am. I'm trying to walk the fine line of not expecting too much and expecting a bunch more.

Tots fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Mar 22, 2016

# ¿ Mar 22, 2016 04:09

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Kalenn Istarion posted:

If you're only 6 months in and you already got to skip the entry level job it's probably a bridge too far to ask for an off cycle raise before your first year. Be patient and if they don't adjust at one year then you can start thinking about how to re-set. You're not credibly going to be in a position to threaten to leave either based on my assumption about your experience.

I'm 95% sure I could make a lateral move for ~7k more.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2016 12:35

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

Either you have an offer in hand or you're over confident in this belief.

So for the purposes of addressing the question, assume I have an offer in hand and I'm asking for advice.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2016 14:35

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

No.

There's actual work to be done in getting a competing offer, and that work has value. I'm not going to participate in your fiction that you get the value without doing the work.

The TWO values you get out of doing the work are:

1) You find out information; this information will either confirm or disconfirm your hypothesis that you're worth more than you're presently making. Sometimes when you go out and interview and get offers the result is that everyone offers you approximately what you make right now. This is humbling and it changes your perspective and shows you that you are not in a strong negotiating position.

2) You get leverage. Now when you say "I am worth more, and I think you should pay me more." you can back up that belief with something more than your own sense of self confidence. Your sense of self confidence is not grounded in the reality of a competing offer or market research, so it is worthless apart from however much you can bluster it into.

You said yourself that you already expended political capital to get where you are. That means you need for real hard leverage to get any further, which means that you have a competing offer in hand, which means you did the work to go out and interview with other companies to get that offer instead of sitting around making up a number of how confident you are you could get one.

So here is my advice: Go out and get other offers if you want to talk about more compensation with your present job.

I agree with all of that, but you missed the mark of my question by a bit. I've started to do the work to look for other offers sitting at the 6 month mark and I fully expect it to teach me something. It will either teach me that my market value is more or it's not. I know it can go either way, but from the initial leg work that I've done in talking to peers and recruiters, it seems very likely that my market value is indeed higher. My question is then, if my market value is higher by about 5-10k is it worth taking a lateral position purely for cash or should I hold out for cash and title (taking everything in my initial post into consideration)?

You're assuming that I think I can pull leverage out of thin air. I know this isn't the case and wouldn't consider asking for an adjustment to compensation without an offer in hand. My question is, if and when I have an offer for something lateral, is it worth pursuing?

Tots fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 22, 2016

# ¿ Mar 22, 2016 17:47

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Do you think it would be prudent to seek out offers now or wait until I'm closer to the year mark? Either way I'm likely going to wait until my first performance review for a raise. If I say "I got an offer for 10k more 6 months ago" will anyone give a poo poo?

# ¿ Mar 22, 2016 20:17

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Count Freebasie posted:

This will be a bit of a read, but hopefully it helps.

I wouldn't jump to another company for a lateral move unless I knew there was advancement potential, and that the potential didn't exist at my current employer. I was offered jobs with massive increases in base salary and possibly more money in commission, but I knew that I was liked in the company, and that if I stuck with it, that my career path here would be solid. If you're good at what you do, have potential, and most importantly, the important people at your company see that potential and will eventually promote you, it's often prudent to stick it out.

My GF jumped companies to another one because her friend worked there and her friend said there was room for advancement, but didn't know what she was talking about. My GF was well-liked at her previous employer, and there weren't any immediate routes to promotion, so she jumped ship against my advice. When she got to the next employer, she ended up clashing with other people there because she did her job too well, and was making them have to work harder, as she was spotting errors in their numbers (she's a risk analyst). Pretty soon, she was on a performance plan, even though she had just gotten commendations and awards for her work. She was then in a race to find a new job before they pulled the trigger on her and let her go over BS reasons. She found a new job and is basically making the same, but it isn't as good as her old job where everyone loved her and she enjoyed it.

My career path looked like this:

Graduated college
Sold Yellow Pages for one year, then got into medical sales since it was an obvious advancement, and where I wanted to be
Worked at medical device company for 2.5 years and then jumped to a different company because the opportunity to make good money wasn't there where I was
Worked at next company for two years and made a poo poo ton of cash, but they hacked the pay plan so that I would only make half of what I was making
Went to next company, which looked good, but ended up being shady as gently caress and left after 1.5 years
Went to next company and made good bank, but our product was discontinued and we all got laid off (2 years)
Luckily, had a good name in the industry and got picked up at current company after only five weeks of being unemployed. Have been here over six years, with two promotions.

During the time I've been here, I had many great offers from other places, but I performed well, became a top player, and was tight with one of the VPs. I knew that he was going places and I hitched my wagon to his. Six years later, he's the CEO and I'm one of the "inner circle." I still get good offers from other companies to be VP of Sales, etc., but as this company continues to grow, I've been here for a long time, and I'm one of the people they don't want to lose, and I have a good position. I also know that as things grow, I will be on track to more promotions if I stick it out, as there is a loyalty that's been built over the years, and they know that I always deliver.

Moral of the story for me was that I made moves when I knew I had hit a ceiling or I had to move, but I've always played the long game, and I knew when to stick it out. I'm willing to make less money now if I know, or at least have a good intuition, that there will be a bigger payoff later.

I've never asked for a raise from my current employers, as I'm compensated well, and they actually give me raises and bonuses proactively to retain me. I've let my boss know in passing at times that other companies were angling for me, but never in a fashion that made it seem that I was gunning for a raise. I said it in a matter-of-fact way, and they reached out to me because I've established my value to the company. Ask for a raise if you're sure they want you or need you, but if you're easily replaceable, you're just telegraphing the fact that you're not content, and then I'd worry that they will start looking for someone else who will be happy to do your job at the current pay or less. There are certain reps of mine, who, if they came to me for a raise, I would have to let my boss know that we had an issue and that we had to make them happy because they're too important to lose. The other reps? I would assume that, mentally, they may already be checked out and looking, and I would start calling recruiters to have a back-fill at the ready. Of course, we don't do raises in sales, generally, as a good rep will be making good money any way, and they make what they're worth. For us, it's more about making sure that the pay plan is good enough that good reps won't want to leave, and doing fun contests like giving away a nice car or expensive watch, etc. The only people who generally leave here are under-performers, and really, I like when they leave as it saves me the tedious process of having to fire them.

I work in a bit of a different world but yah I think a lot of that applies and is really good advice. I should say that I have no reason to want to leave (aside from potentially compensation). I'm treated well, well liked, and the path to advancement is literally spelled out for you completely. Regardless of all that though, I still want to position myself as well as I possibly can. The perk to having the advancement path readily available and advertised is that I know I'm performing at the base of the next level already. I also know that I'm at the bottom of the salary range for my current level. I want to close that gap as much as possible without setting off alarms or burning bridges. I guess the best way to do it would be to bring it up after a year and they'll either take me seriously or they won't.

Dik Hz posted:

If someone on my team came to me 6 months into their first job ever with a job offer hand demanding more money, I'd tell them to take it and most likely let them go on the spot. It takes at least that long to get up to speed at my job. If they're already shopping offers, they'll be gone sooner rather than later.

I think that's a very fair position to have and it's what leaves me reluctant to be looking too hard at interviewing elsewhere to gauge my market value just yet.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2016 23:59

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

I talk at least every other week with the person who is responsible for my financial well-being, but it also happens that this person is completely disconnected from my day today work which is how most of the firm is organized. My performance review is based on feedback that I solicit year round and that he solicits come review time. I try to plant seeds regularly by way of communicating the projects that I am taking on that are above my current level, so I believe I'm hitting all the basic points here.

E: I ask him pretty regularly if I can be doing anything else to improve my position and his advice is to stay the course. I think around maybe month 9 I'll try to get a little more to the point and say "hey I know I came in at the bottom of this pay grade and based on x y z I am performing at the top of this pay grade. Is there anything else I can do on my end towards closing this gap?"

E: And just to be clear, I don't have self-aggrandizing beliefs about my abilities. The performance expectations are very clearly defined and I can demonstrate clearly to him that I am performing at the base of the next level.

Tots fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Mar 23, 2016

# ¿ Mar 23, 2016 00:39

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Unfortunately it would be nearly impossible for me to connect with the person making the final decision regarding promotion. I'm not even really seeking promotion (which I am pretty positive wouldn't happen) but just want to bring myself up from the floor of the current level to something that is roughly commensurate with median for my level.

It's probably different than what most people here are used to re: not actually working with the person responsible for your rate. The whole firm is divided into project teams and admin teams which are more often than not disparate. You just have to convince your PMs that your worth your salt then they have to communicate it to your admin supervisor.

E: Also another point, if you are in this company you ALWAYS have a path upward. You move up or you move out and it's expected that you do it. I just want to adjust my rate before I get branded as the guy with the low rate that PMs want to use to fill positions with tight budgets. (Which I have seen as a sort of alternative to moving up. People getting promotions but always staying at the bottom of the payband.)

Tots fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Mar 23, 2016

# ¿ Mar 23, 2016 01:10

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Regarding trying to get a better salary from one of two companies. I was in a very similar position when I got my current job. I realized that I low-balled myself after I already gave them a number. A few days earlier I talked to a recruiter for a different company who threw out a range that was like +10k. I didn't even have another interview at that point, so I said "another company has expressed interest in me for $XX,XXX would you be willing to meet me half way?" which wasn't a lie. I sent it all in a rather lengthy email breaking down what I anticipated my total compensation to be in each scenario (even putting a number on job security) and sent it out with a very reasonable increase request. That worked for me. Might not work for you but it's worth a shot.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2016 02:25

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Ezekiel_980 posted:

I really just want to leave my current employer because of the toxic environment it has making something that is closer to what a masters level chemist should be making would be nice too. Haven't done the research yet but that is a excellent suggestion that i should have thought of in the first place. and this is a growing international pharma company.

Also see if the fields take 0

# ¿ Mar 25, 2016 02:52

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Dik Hz posted:

Your wife should have asked for more!

True life. This may feel like a win, but in all likelihood this means that she low-balled herself and the top of her range is still probably less than, or at the bottom of, the range the company was expecting to hit.

# ¿ May 8, 2016 14:23

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Deadite posted:

I applied to a few internal jobs last month, and I currently have third interviews for two of those jobs scheduled for later this week. My boss is concerned that I may actually leave his team for a new position and has offered me around a 10% bump in salary to stay.

Here is my question though: The jobs I am interviewing for are in a new city, and here in Boston the cost of living is 30% more than what it would cost to live in the new city. Even if I am not offered any more money for either of the new jobs, I would effectively be getting a 30% raise just due to paying less for everything.

Is there a way to negotiate a salary bump for my current job that matches what I would receive in the new city plus a 30% premium for the higher cost of living here? It sounds like a huge increase, but it would actually just put me on an equal footing with what I could afford in the new location if I accept a new job.

Really all you can do is bring that information to your team lead and be ready to walk away from your current position if they can't meet it. Keep in mind, unless you're being pretty badly underpaid, they probably won't be able to do anything for you for budget reasons.

# ¿ May 10, 2016 13:10

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

What line of work are you in? Things in this thread don't apply so much to a retail job for instance. You have to have some sort of leverage to start off and if you have a line of people 100 deep behind you willing to work for slave wages then you're not going to get anywhere.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2016 13:31

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

What's your current salary?

quote:

Thanks for the email and I do think your background and experience would be a fit for the position. Unfortunately, if we are going to be representing you to a client of ours, we are expected to know basic information about our candidates and current and expected compensation is certainly one of the main points our clients expect us to know about.

As we discussed, I personally could care less what you make, and as we spoke about , I understand that it is likely less than what you are looking for and you think revealing it will cause clients to low ball you which I totally get. That’s why no matter what you are making, I can submit you saying you are targeting X and they would know if they like you, and subsequently want to hire you, they would need to pay X.

You definitely seem like a good fit I just can’t get your resume to clients of our without knowing this information as they expect me to know this. Should things change, and you are more comfortable sharing that info, feel free to reach out to me.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2016 19:52

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

He actually did tell me the salary range that the employer was targeting, but I also assumed he was lying.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2016 18:25

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Hey all, I'm back here for some Travel Positions talk.

First of all, I just want to tell someone (strangers even) that I think I've just basically landed my dream job - so hooray! They offered roughly a 45% increase to my current salary (current 69, offer 100). Thanks everyone in this thread for past advice that's driven my ability to negotiate to that.

However, they are asking me to do 100% travel for some amount of time (which I already told them going in that I would be okay with). The only problem is, I don't really know what the gently caress that means. I know it means that I work 5 days a week somewhere that isn't home, but I have no idea what I should be asking about this. What is typical for how housing/food/travel is handled? Do 100% travel positions ever pay for visits back home? What the hell do I do with my apartment? Do I keep it? Should I sell my car?

I basically have no idea what type of questions are important and what I should be asking at this point, so I'm hoping someone can give me some tips here.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 01:35

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Saint Fu posted:

I did 5 years of 100% travel as a chemical engineer. The job included assignments varying in length between 1 week to 1+ years at customer sites. My company paid for hotel/apartment while on assignment, $50/day average for food, they paid for the flight there and back (obviously), depending on the location there was a bonus on top of my salary between 0-40% (shittier locations had a bigger bonus), while not on assignment my company paid for a hotel and car in the headquarters city. Some people kept an apartment but I just had a storage unit. If I wanted to fly home during an assignment for a wedding or something, I was on the hook for the flight.

Ask if you can review their travel expense policy in writing before committing. Find out exactly what you have to pay for and what you can expense to the company. What kind of industry are you in?

Awesome, this is all really good information and at least gives me some starting points for questions.

I'm in technology management consulting. Specifically I'll be an "Agile Transformation Coach" if that helps. How does industry affect this whole situation?

E: Also do you have any general advice for a travel position? This seems like it's a completely foreign lifestyle to me.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 04:54

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Come to the travel thread in this very forum, mon petit garçon. It's mostly status and hotel nonsense right now but if you ask good questions you will get good answers. Don't bother reading the whole thing.

Oh, awesome. Didn't know that existed. Thanks goon stranger!

# ¿ Dec 23, 2016 04:26

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Jesus Christ.

Always negotiate.

# ¿ Jan 9, 2018 22:29

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 10:55

Tots: Sep 3, 2007

Eric the Mauve posted:

Too late to fix it now, only thing he can do is immediately start looking for a job somewhere else. Not like his new employer is going to give him a 50% pay increase if he comes back immediately and says "actually after accepting your offer I checked and it turns out I way underbid, 50% pay increase plz"

I actually did this once and got a pretty significant pay increase after they offered me the top of my range before I accepted. If he's actually willing to walk away then he certainly does have the ability to negotiate up still.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2018 02:14

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

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